Why isn't Fritz Guard (or similar) more widely used vs Complete/Prime? Ammonia/Nitrites are good?

[SRBetta]

Hello everyone, first post and have settled with Aquarium Co-op as my goto for supplies. Everything just seems more straightforward and to the point than other retailers and (v/b)loggers. 

With that said, after 2 days of straight research on how to cycle a tank and quarantining fish. My migraines are killing me. Facebook, Reddit, Discord, and finally here, my mind is jam packed and it's all blurring together.

Of the several huge long winded questions I have to ask, my biggest three right now are:

1) Fritz Guard versus Fritz Complete or Seachem Prime, which the latter two seem to be the exact same thing a part from a single molecule.

2) Quarantine and sticking to Fritz Guard.

3) Treating your main/display tank plus cycling with Fritz Expel-P and/or others just to be sure.

This all started with being recommended FritzZyme TurboStart 700 after just under two weeks of failed ability to get a bacterial colony to feed off Ammonia with Seachem Stability, and as of 24 hours ago, API Quick Start.

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First, from what I understand is the cycle starts with Ammonia (NH3), which is nitrified by Nitrifying Bacteria (or I guess what most call or refer to as Beneficial Bacteria or "BB" to further shorten). This turns into Nitrite (NO2-) and then Nitrified into Nitrate (NO3-) and then the cycle starts all over again with Nitrate being broken down into Ammonia, albeit, at much much greater exponential speed.

Fritz Complete and Seachem Prime have had several claims that have been changed in translation, but all came down to making Ammonia and Nitrites detoxified and safe for the environment. 

Going back to FritzZyme TurboStart 700, the FAQs state:

"Chlorine must be removed before adding FritzZyme® (chlorine kills bacteria). FritzGuard® or Fritz Chlorine Remover may be used for this purpose."

Fritz Chlorine Remover is currently only sold in gallon jugs and highly concentrated for ponds, so that's out of the question. So let's check the FAQ section for Fritz Complete.

"Chemical ammonia removers work by converting poisonous ammonia to non-toxic compounds. Nitrifying bacteria may not be able to utilize some of these compounds. The use of ammonia removers will only prolong the time needed to establish the biofilter."

Okay, well. That might be the answer as to why I was unable to see my Ammonia even turn into Nitrites when using Seachem Prime. 

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Further compounding on top of all this, as I said at the opening, Aquarium Co-op is straightforward and just gets it done. So what about quarantining my fish prior to introduction to the main tank. 

The Trusted Trio: Fritz ParaCleanse, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, and Fritz Mardel Maracyn. 

So this is a 1 week crucible where we get to test the hardiness and put Darwin's Survival of the Fittest to the test. While one week of not performing a water change is doable, I have never gone a week without feeding a fish, so we'll see how that goes. Although, "(If you feel you must feed your fish, wait until Day 4 or 5, and then only feed them very lightly.)".

Anyway, back to the chemicals we're dealing with and the topic at hand.

Both on Aquarium Co-op's blog and their vlog with Irene, neither mentioned conditioning the water prior to quarantine. So one would safely assume, it needs to be done, especially with tap water. People using RO or RODI water already been doing their own method for this stage and know what to treat their water with and that's a whole different beast in itself, so we'll skip that.

Back to the AQ-CO-OP QT crucible and we'll just safely assume, lets use Fritz Complete or Seachem Prime. Well, despite searches on here about the exact topic, people have said they've used the combo safely. However, one of the products from Hikari Aquarium Solutions Ich-X is not suitable with Fritz Complete, in theory, so; back to the FAQs:

Fritz Complete - NOT SAFE; this is a sulfoxylate-based conditioner and can affect the medication

However:

Fritz Guard - SAFE; this is a thiosulfate conditioner and won't affect the medication

So, it's clear we should play it safe with Fritz Guard. But, now we're dealing with NH3 and NO2- for a week of quarantine, hopefully the primed sponger filter from the main tank has enough BB to get these down to a livable condition, otherwise we're (re?)introducing stressors and creating the very conditions suitable for Ich, one of the very reasons to quarantine to begin with.

Glossing back over to the other two chemicals:

Fritz ParaCleanse - Do not perform water changes during the course of treatment. ParaCleanse may inhibit nitrifying bacteria. If ammonia or nitrite is a concern, detoxify during treatment with Fritz A.C.C.R. or Fritz Complete. No contraindications: can be used with all of our other products and meds.

Again, I guess we'll stick to Fritz Guard and let the primed sponge filter take the wheel.

Fritz Mardel Maracyn - Do not perform water changes during the course of treatment. ParaCleanse may inhibit nitrifying bacteria. If ammonia or nitrite is a concern, detoxify during treatment with Fritz A.C.C.R. or Fritz Complete. No contraindications: can be used with all of our other products and meds.

Pretty much the same stuff here, The FAQs on Maracyn and ParaCleanse go into some real great depth, but all seem to be non-related to the quarantine tasking at hand.

In the end, it circles back to the above. What am I missing about all-in-one conditioning versus a chlorine/chloramine specific conditioner? 

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My tank appears to have planaria at the very at least. So I need to get Fritz Expel-P in there ASAP while they're still little. It's a planted aquarium, the only living organisms in there that aren't parasites or bacteria are two Bladder Snails that have seemed to hitched some rides with the plants I picked up. I'm grateful for them as I have an insane amount of diatoms that have sprouted all over and i'll probably have the world's biggest algae bloom ever witnessed as I accidentally dosed 9 times over the required dose of Seachem Flourish Fertilizer........ Don't ask, i'm horrible at math. Those snails are going to be working overtime and i'm glad they seem to find each other and do "the dance" several times an hour, because they're going to need help.

Prior to my 1 week treatment of Expel-P, I will do a 50% water change, condition with Fritz Guard and dump the dosage of Expel-P in then pray for the best for my bacterial colony and such.

_______________________

I apologize for the long winded post. If you have read everything. I greatly appreciate you. This has been a serious journey and i'm SEVERELY over budget, pushing 4 digits into this and I have YET to get any stocking. It's a Fluval Flex 9 gallon of all things, just a Betta, 6 Pygmy Cory's and a few shrimp will be the plan.

I will see this through... 

At this point, I went back, re-read everything, and I don't exactly know what my question is other than:

What am I missing about all-in-one conditioning versus a chlorine/chloramine specific conditioner? 

If we need Beneficial/Nitrifying Bacteria, we need Ammonia. To make Ammonia, we need to make Nitrates. But to make Nitrates, we need to make Nitrites. 

So why are the leading water conditioners made to "expel" Ammonia and Nitrites? 

Has Fritz Guard been the underdog this whole time?

My goal is to have less maintenance involvement and less water changes. But to do this, I need a fully cycled tank to get the cycle going for a self-sufficient ecosystem. Seachem prime and Fritz Complete seem to hinder that process.

The only reason I can think of, is that most people do not actually get a fully cycled tank and so they rely on frequent water changes versus a bacterial colony to do the work?

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Hardware List:

Tank: Fluval Flex 9 w/ LidzPropzShop Spray Bar, Intake Snorkel Set, Acrylic Flip Lid

Light: Fluval Plant 3.0 Nano 

Heater: Eheim Thermocontrol-E50

Substrate: Fluval Bio-Stratum

Bio-Filter Media: Seachem Matrix, no carbon. Coarse sponge is stock in center, Pre-filter/Polisher in the heater sump-section.

Plants: Bucephalandra Brownie, Anubias Barteri/Nana, Spikey Moss, Fissidens Nobilis Moss, Scarlet Temple, Bacopa, Hornwort, Amazon Frogbit, Water Spangle, Duckweeds.

Hardscape: Sandblasted Ghost Wood & Seiyru Stones.

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by SRBetta
Big clarification on my Ammonia...

[Scapexghost]

I can help with some of these. 

First, all the dechlorinators are basically the same. Dechlorinators are big sellers so every company wants a piece of the pie.

Second, dechlorinators are rather misleading when it comes to what they do with ammonia and nitrite. They "detoxify" ammonia. This means that they convert it to ammonium. This is a much less toxic chemical than ammonia but bacteria and plants can still consume it. This is a temperary process. If the tank is not cycled, it will revert back to ammonia. There isn't strong evidence backing their claims regarding nitrites.

prime will work fine with the med trio.

Also, if you dont have any fish in the main tank, you can just quarantine your fish in there.

[jwcarlson]

I will confess to not reading your entire post. 

What is your pH? 

When I need to cycle an aquarium my method is to use media from a cycled tank (I keep sponge filters in most tanks "idling" so I cam swap them into a tank and out a new one in an established tank.  Bacteria grows extensively fast once the colony is established. 

If I can't sacrifice a filter I will clean filters into the new tank and let the filter in there slurp up all the squeezings and let the mulm chill in there for a while.  

If neither of those are available (or if I am worries doing so might make the new/expensive fish sick), I do a fish in cycle using Prime and Stability.  Depending on application I might be doing large daily changes (for discus, for instance) or smaller changes every day, every other, or every third doing any of the above methods until the filters catch up.  I have personally found that to be perfectly acceptable and notnstressing to the fish.  I might feed a bit less at this time, but even in QT (not med trio for me, just time and worming with levamisole), I will feed.  Just resolve to not go overboard.  I did it with hundreds of dollars of new discus last year.  I did if for my community tank as well.  At this point I do sponge swapping or squeezing or some combination.  But fish in cycling has gotten such a bad reputation and all it takes is a little bit of work for a couple of weeks or so. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by jwcarlson

[AllFishNoBrakes]

Hey @SRBetta. Welcome to the forum! I’m not sure I can answer every detail of every question you’ve posed, but I’m happy to share what I do and what works for me. 
 

1. To the best of my knowledge, and with my own “fish room science” nitrates do not revert back to ammonia. The “cycle” goes ammonia (from fish waste), converts to nitrite, then converts to nitrate. Once at the nitrate stage, it doesn’t then convert back to ammonia. Ammonia will continue to be “present” as you feed your fish and they create waste, but once your tank is “cycled” you shouldn’t see ammonia because the BB immediately converts ammonia to nitrite, and then nitrite to nitrate. 
     -Nitrates can be consumed by plants and are also taken out with water changes. 
 

2. The trio is very straightforward in my experience. I buy fish, they go into a 10 gallon quarantine tank, and in goes the qt trio. I don’t feed the fish for 3 or 4 days and then feed very little. After a week, I do a 50% water change and continue to keep the fish in the quarantine tank and observe. I quarantine fish for 4-6 weeks with a week of meds and then 3-5 weeks of continued observation. At this point, I have too much time invested into my 13 tanks to risk a new fish moving too fast to take down an entire ecosystem. 
 

3. I used to use Prime, but then it got too expensive and I switched to Complete. I’ve never had an issue using either of these water conditioners and then the qt trio. 
     -I’ve dealt with ich a couple of times over my few years in the hobby, and my personal experience is that aquarium salt works better than ich-x when it comes to treating an active ich infection. I like ich-x as a prophylactic as part of the trio, but if I actively have ich I’m using aquarium salt and heat to beat those little parasites. 
 

4. In the 3 years I’ve been playing with my 13 tanks I’ve never used Expel-P until last week when one of my breeding angelfish showed that they had Camallanus Red Worms. Expel-P has had some good results, with one more treatment to go this week, but I’ve only used it for this active infection and don’t plan on using it in the future as part of a qt process. I’m more worried about internal parasites and that’s what Paracleanse is for. 
     -Planaria, assuming you actually have it, should really just be fish food and is part of your ecosystem. Do as you wish, but I wouldn’t panic about it. 
 

5. Don’t overthink these things! It’s super easy to get overwhelmed and bogged down with all the information available to us, but try to keep it simple. Make sure your tank can “cycle” ammonia so it’s safe for fish. If you want to use the qt trio I suggest a separate tank. Quarantine your fish in the qt tank, and once you feel comfortable move them to the display tank. Feed lightly at first, and increase slowly over time. Remember that a “cycled” tank is not a “seasoned” tank. If your goal is to create an ecosystem that takes time! Take things one step at a time, forgive yourself for any mistakes you make along the way and see them as learning opportunities, experiment with things until you find what you like and what works for you, and don’t forget to have fun!

Edited January 30, 2023 by AllFishNoBrakes

[Cory]

Sounds like you've sought the advice of a bunch of things and are now confused. If you were standing here in person, I'd ask, why do you need to do all of this? You have live plants, why do you need to cycle the tank? You're seeking an ecosystem, plants consume waste. Then I'd show you a video on cycling an aquarium with plants.

Then I'd say, it's a great idea to quarantine new fish, once your plants are thriving and processing waste for you, using the meds will be much easier as even if the beneficial bacteria that has established suffers some setback, the plants would pick up the slack. Btw, the plants brought in the bacteria you needed.

Then I'd say, i'd wait 3+ months to add the shrimp so that you have a well established layer of mulm and micro organisms to support the shrimp between your feedings as they like to eat all the time. The fish poop will establish this.

Lastly on which dechlorinator, pick one. We don't sell fritz guard because most people don't need an aloe conditioner. It is 5x less potent than fritz complete. I've personally never encountered any problems between any medication and dechlorinator. I've used them all a bunch. Lots of companies like to scare you into only using their chemicals etc.

Work on growing plants for a month or so, when you're getting decent growth, and have stable water add some fish. I'd probably wait till you came back into the store and mention how the fluval stratum is going to be fighting you on pH and you might want to use some crushed coral to combat that as it'll continually drag down your pH.

[SRBetta]

On 1/29/2023 at 8:28 PM, Scapexghost said:

 

 

Regarding dechlorinators, my biggest confusion stemmed from Frtiz's claim as I quoted above, "Chemical ammonia removers work by converting poisonous ammonia to non-toxic compounds. Nitrifying bacteria may not be able to utilize some of these compounds. The use of ammonia removers will only prolong the time needed to establish the biofilter."

Prior to this, I always believed the same as you say, and Seachem even states it on the bottle and on their website, "Prime® does not remove ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate from the system. It simply binds with those compounds making them harmless to the inhabitants and still bioavailable to the beneficial bacteria." 

So if Prime and Complete are practically the same compounds, sans one molecule for patent-dodging. Then I can safely revert back to my original thoughts before this whole rabbit hole occurred haha.

However Fritz also further makes the claim about Complete not being suitable with Ich-X in the Med Trio.
"Fritz Complete - NOT SAFE; this is a sulfoxylate-based conditioner and can affect the medication"

This is where I decided, "If I can't get my bacteria to convert my Ammonia to Nitrite for some reason, perhaps I should follow what Fritz said about their Complete converting/detoxifying Ammonia to a state that cannot be consumed and nitrified to Nitrite and just stick with Fritz Guard...?"

As for quarantine. I might just throw my cleanup crew straight into the main tank and let them go ham. But I also don't want to introduce whatever parasites they may have into my system. Still deciding.

Overall, I greatly appreciate your time and your response. 🤙

On 1/29/2023 at 8:30 PM, jwcarlson said:

 

pH: 7.8

GH: 196.9

dKH: 6

I have, in my Aquarium Co-op shopping cart, a Medium Sponge Filter that I will prime in my main tank and use for a smaller quarantine tank. So I got that covered. Didn't think of cleaning a filter in the QT tank too and allowing the sponge filter to clean that up. I have a large pre-filter/polishing sponge that I could do that with, but that thing was CAKED thick with stuff after a week. Was pretty gnarly.

We'll see what happens when I hit that stage though. Thank you so much for your help! 👌

On 1/29/2023 at 8:40 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

 

1) Yeah my wife looked at me funny when I tried to explain that Nitrates are converted into Ammonia. She clarified that mixup real quick... haha.

2) The Trio QT system they have sure is solid. I will definitely be giving it go prior to the addition of new additions to the tank.

3) After a few hours of research on the subject, I was weary of using salt for Bettas, but again, my wife says that a lot of Betta keepers use salt to treat it, still... I used to use the salt method and heat with fancy goldfish, but they're the opposite of Bettas. Tolerating salt, hates heat vs Bettas that love heat but hate salt.

4) It was just something I thought of, I managed to capture some closeup videos of the stuff I saw on my glass. Just looks like a bunch of odd little parasites of different sizes and shapes running around. So I figured I dope Excel-P in just to be safe, prior to throwing any livestock in.

5) I try not to.... But I get super paranoid sometimes haha.

The biggest issue as I mentioned in response to Scapexghost I have right now is that after 48 hours, I can't get my bacteria to convert my Ammonia to Nitrite for some reason. So I am trying to figure out if I have a bacteria issue.... 🤔

Appreciate your help and feedback! ✌️

On 1/29/2023 at 8:45 PM, Cory said:

 

Cory! Wow! Thank you for the response. I don't know whatsoever and why, I have never seen that video you embedded. I have searched and read on this subject so much with confusion. Yet I never seen that video in my searches. Going to watch it with the wife as we eat dinner shortly.

The tank has many layers of... A lot of things. Diatoms, 1cm thick bio-films, little parasitic things around the glass I can't identify. I feel like it's fully "cycled" but as I mentioned to the above responses, I can't get my bacteria to convert my Ammonia to Nitrite for some reason. It has been 48 hours, maybe it takes longer? 

It's been two weeks since I set up the tank, I ghost fed it heavily for a few days. To the point that the tank was reeking a putrid fishy smell of rot this morning. So I did a 50% water change and everything seems much better. However, I was still not getting any Ammonia readings. At all. For whatever reason unbeknownst to me.

So, we used some Dr. Tim's Ammonia to get it to 3ppm, and that's where I am now. 0 Nitrite 48 hours later. I may have screwed that up a bit with the 50% WC today... I don't know. I dosed a ton of API Quick Start just to help, Seachem Stability just wasn't working. Possibly due to what I had mentioned in the OP, "Chemical ammonia removers work by converting poisonous ammonia to non-toxic compounds. Nitrifying bacteria may not be able to utilize some of these compounds. The use of ammonia removers will only prolong the time needed to establish the biofilter." - Fritz. So I assumed maybe Prime converted the Ammonia to a compound unusable to the bacteria colony, if I even have one.

It's just odd how Fritz runs circles with their Complete and treatments, and how it's supposedly the same as Seachem Prime, yet when it comes down to certain things, they claim opposing things. Fritz saying Complete will detoxify Ammonia and Nitrite indefinitely, and Seachem saying Prime can only detoxify it for up to 48 hours. Or Seachem saying Prime only detoxifies Ammonia/Nitrite and bacteria can still consume it. Whereas, Fritz says that it might not be able to be consumed.

Anyway, here's some parameters.

Ammonia: 3ppm 

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 0

pH: 7.6

GH: 196.9

dKH: 6

I have been fighting to drop the pH level down to the 7 mark, but it won't budge. I was doing daily doses of Flourish Excel, but I am going to stop that as the wife said it might being doing more bad than good.

So if I can come back to this forum begging to figure out a fix for a tanking pH, which I now assume is crushed corals, I might be in a better state than I am now?

Again, I appreciate your response Cory. Thank you so much. 🤘 

[AndEEss]

If you tank is cycled, you won’t ever have detectable nitrite. 
 

The only time you’ll see nitrite is when you’re cycling, before the bacteria that consume nitrite are fully established.

In my plant grow out tank, I can do a 100% water change, add 3ppm ammonia and see 10ppm nitrate 24hrs later, and never have detectable nitrite.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

To me, it feels like you’re doing everything to accomplish 1 thing. Slow down, and enjoy the process. 
 

You state that the tank has been set up for 2 weeks. That’s a blip on the timeline that I hope is a long-lasting, well-tenured, many-years-to-come tank. 
 

I personally haven’t bought into the “your tank should be able to handle X amount of ammonia per day” nonsense. It sounds like you’ve added plenty of ammonia via ghost feeding your tank. Let your tank digest that! Think about it this way: you need bacteria A to covert ammonia to nitrite. Cool, your ammonia now has converted to nitrite. Now, bacteria B must establish to be able to convert nitrite to nitrate. You can’t grow a bacteria colony without providing its food source. These separate bacteria colonies take time to establish. Time is your friend!
 

The “cycling” process takes many weeks if not months to to establish as you need A to covert ammonia to nitrite, and then you need B to convert nitrite to nitrate. Assuming your tank will be set up for many years to come, 8 weeks is a blip on the timeline. Slow down, keep it simple, focus on one step at a time and enjoy the process. Years from now you’ll look back on this time as something you rushed that you should’ve savored. Just like life, tanks are one step at a time; one foot in front of the other. 
 

P.S. shout out to Cory for jumping in on this one! Pretty rad that your first post caught the attention of the man himself!

[SRBetta]

On 1/29/2023 at 10:24 PM, AndEEss said:

If you tank is cycled, you won’t ever have detectable nitrite. 
 

The only time you’ll see nitrite is when you’re cycling, before the bacteria that consume nitrite are fully established.

In my plant grow out tank, I can do a 100% water change, add 3ppm ammonia and see 10ppm nitrate 24hrs later, and never have detectable nitrite.

Out of curiosity, what if you tested for nitrite at the 6 hour mark?

My wife has me testing every 6 hours, she wants to see an emergence of each stage ( i tested Ammonia at the 10 minute mark after adding, the 3 hours mark to verify, and then the 6 hour mark to double check). But the issue is that we never saw Ammonia to begin with. Now that we've added it superficially, we're not seeing Nitrite or Nitrates, either.

On 1/29/2023 at 10:25 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

To me, it feels like you’re doing everything to accomplish 1 thing. Slow down, and enjoy the process. 
 

You state that the tank has been set up for 2 weeks. That’s a blip on the timeline that I hope is a long-lasting, well-tenured, many-years-to-come tank. 
 

I personally haven’t bought into the “your tank should be able to handle X amount of ammonia per day” nonsense. It sounds like you’ve added plenty of ammonia via ghost feeding your tank. Let your tank digest that! Think about it this way: you need bacteria A to covert ammonia to nitrite. Cool, your ammonia now has converted to nitrite. Now, bacteria B must establish to be able to convert nitrite to nitrate. You can’t grow a bacteria colony without providing its food source. These separate bacteria colonies take time to establish. Time is your friend!
 

The “cycling” process takes many weeks if not months to to establish as you need A to covert ammonia to nitrite, and then you need B to convert nitrite to nitrate. Assuming your tank will be set up for many years to come, 8 weeks is a blip on the timeline. Slow down, keep it simple, focus on one step at a time and enjoy the process. Years from now you’ll look back on this time as something you rushed that you should’ve savored. Just like life, tanks are one step at a time; one foot in front of the other. 
 

P.S. shout out to Cory for jumping in on this one! Pretty rad that your first post caught the attention of the man himself!

True... We're just trying to spot when our bacterial colony starts. I don't want to do a fish-in cycle, but I am starting to think I should. 

It's just weird how the tank is acting right now, here's some closeups of the "life" we have and I can't help but imagine there HAS to be a bacterial colony that has developed in here already. I can only assume that bacteria to break down the Ammonia have began to emerge, but not getting any readings from the Nitrite.

I know it sounds very impatient. It's just weird how I woke up to the stench of rotting fish everywhere due to the Hikari Krill being broken down after sitting in the tank for 2 weeks, but confused how there were no ammonia traces until I had to superficially add it.

 

[Lennie]

I agree with @AllFishNoBrakes

You may never need your tank to handle 2ppm of ammonia one day. All your tank and filter needs to deal with is the amount of stocking you have once it is “cycled”. 
 

I personally always find myself densely planting, watching them grow, then after some time I introduce established media and bottled bacteria. Which I don’t even need bottled bacteria rn as I have seasoned tanks with lots of filter media.

Cycling your first aquarium or having a good plant growth takes a bit of time. This is a hobby of patience. You can watch @Irene’s cycling experience videos and see how she tried everything from 0, with plants, and tried establish 1 year old filtet with Dr.Tims kit.  That established filter took so many days to deal with dr.tims ammonia kit expectations meanwhile running perfectly with poop machine mollys or in its own tank. It clearly shows that you need your filter and tank to deal with your stocking and it is a subjective factor, because we all have different tanks, plants, stocking, feeding portions, etc.

I’ve cycled my first tank with stability after returning to hobby after ages and I didn’t have any established filter media on my hands. To me, it worked and I always used it together with prime. Prime does not affect the cycle to my experience, because I’ve never had an issue with cycling while using prime combined with stability. Idk about fritz as it is not being sold in my country. 

I’ve used fishfood in my first time as well. Probably not doing it again, it is a mess, and stats it provide is unbalanced imo. Broken fish food probably provided some stats but maybe but your plants and bacteria potentially used it?

But again, I’ve had a densely planted tank. When plants and algae grow, I introduce a few clean up crew members, then some shrimp and fish over the course depending on the situation of the tank. As Cory mentioned, shrimp do well in better after 3 months or so. I’ve added mine to a community tank after 6 months and had success. Meanwhile they had lots of moss and plant growth for them and their babies to have a good life.
 

having an established media that you trust with a densely planted tank which provides a good growth seems to be the best combination to me after all these years in the hobby.

But considering I have small tanks, I still dose the 50ml of stability to my new tanks over 10 days just to make sure I introduce some bacteria. I know I don’t need it. But it makes me feel safer :D. 
 

I highly recommend watching Irene’s cycling videos and Cory’s seasoned tank one. Please don’t be demotivated!

Besides all of that, I think prime is more commonly used because it has a good reputation and very commonly available. At least here. I’ve never seen fritz ever in my country to potentially give it a try.

cheers

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Lennie

[SRBetta]

On 1/29/2023 at 8:45 PM, Cory said:

<insert Youtube video here>

This was vastly helpful and spun a good perspective on it all. 

Our plants are currently melting like crazy, but I have faith in them. Especially with that accidental overdose of 9x the amount of fertilizer I need (dosed 6.75ml of Seachem Flourish..... in the 9 gallon Fluval Flex. 😅). Lost a couple already, but I think the tank was under fertilized (was doing once a week, via label instructions).

Going to start this week better off.

Definitely have a mega bottle of Easy Green in the shopping cart, and literally how I came across the co-op in the first place.

Edited January 30, 2023 by SRBetta

[Lennie]

On 1/30/2023 at 11:46 AM, Pepere said:

Attempts to test for ammonium and total ammonia before and after dosing with dechlorinators do not show changes.

They don't remove it. They bind it for some time so meanwhile your tank and bb can deal with it while it is not toxic to fish. It is still there, so you will have readings in your test kit. Or that's what they say.

https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000122593-FAQ-I-tested-my-tap-water-after-using-Seachem-Prime-and-came-up-with-an-ammonia-reading-Is-this-because-of-chloramine-Could-you-explain-how-this-works-in-removing-chloramine-

Also they have a limit for max dose, and it won't be dealing with so much ammonia and nitrite anyway from what I understand. I remember reading normal dosage "detoxifying" 1ppm ammonia+nitrite combined for 24-48 hours. But I'm not sure where

Edited January 30, 2023 by Lennie

[SRBetta]

On 1/30/2023 at 12:46 AM, Pepere said:

I dont believe this is correct.  If it was you could test for it and see the result.  Attempts to test for ammonium and total ammonia before and after dosing with dechlorinators do not show changes.

 

marketing of ammonia, nitrite,nitrate, detoxifying ability of dechlorinators are strong on claims and incredibly weak in provided details.

Maybe i'm not understanding your response to Scapexghost, but the API Ammonia test kit tests for both Ammonia and Ammonium, so there's no way to discern which of the two you have. You either have it or don't.

On 1/30/2023 at 12:54 AM, Lennie said:

They don't remove it. They bind it for some time so meanwhile your tank and bb can deal with it while it is not toxic to fish. It is still there, so you will have readings in your test kit. Or that's what they say.

https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000122593-FAQ-I-tested-my-tap-water-after-using-Seachem-Prime-and-came-up-with-an-ammonia-reading-Is-this-because-of-chloramine-Could-you-explain-how-this-works-in-removing-chloramine-

Also they have a limit for max dose, and it won't be dealing with so much ammonia and nitrite anyway from what I understand. I remember reading normal dosage "detoxifying" 1ppm ammonia+nitrite combined for 24-48 hours. But I'm not sure where

It's weird because Prime and Complete are technically the same thing. I know you do not have Fritz availability, but check these two statements from them out:

Seachem Prime:

How long does Prime® stay bound to the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates?
A: Prime® will bind up those compounds for up to 48 hours. If they are still present after that time frame, they are released back into the water, unless Prime® is re-dosed accordingly. Also, if your ammonia or nitrite levels are increasing within a 24-hour period, Prime® can be re-dosed every 24 hours.

Fritz Complete:

Does the ammonia or nitrite get released back after a certain amount of time?
No, the water conditioner does not only temporarily bind the toxic ammonia or nitrite, and won't be released back into the water column after any period of time. The detoxified ammonia and nitrite are removed by nitrification or water changes.

Edited January 30, 2023 by SRBetta
typo

[Lennie]

On 1/30/2023 at 12:04 PM, SRBetta said:

Maybe i'm not understanding your response to Scapexghost, but the API Ammonia test kit tests for both Ammonia and Ammonium, so there's no way to discern which of the two you have. You either have it or don't.

 

On 1/30/2023 at 12:01 PM, Pepere said:

I was addressing a misunderstanding that is not uncommon in the hobby that the dechlorinators are converting ammonia to non toxic ammonium.

What I don't understand is, do they say they turn ammonia into ammonium? I couldn't see it. I just see that they saying it binding and making it non-toxic somehow.

Otherwise how is nitrite becoming "detoxified" if it is all about ammonium. 

 A lot of people may likely to have ammonium anyway due to their water parameters/temp, no? It is confusing to me too.

I don't know about how chemistry works really. But maybe this detailed topic may help:

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Lennie

[SRBetta]

On 1/30/2023 at 1:09 AM, Lennie said:

What I don't understand is, do they say they turn ammonia into ammonium? I couldn't see it.

So my wife and I are talking about this actively. This is where this whole topic got so condensed with me being so technical, she has a MS in Bio-Chemistry. Soooo, that's why I been in the middle of this and going all out crazy with numbers of certain parameters... She likes the numbers and it helps her understand where our tank sits, which in turns helps keep me in check from ordering random things. Example, since the beginning of this post and before I even got to read the first 4 responses. I had scoured the internet and ordered Fritz Guard, Turbo 700, parts of the trio for QT and now scouring for a 2.5gal QT tank, heater and air pump (If I do not settle for the nano pump offered from here).

I have already sent her that excerpt of the brief history of Prime and she's been breaking it down to me. 

Ammonium is the less toxic form of Ammonia. So, that is where you get the ammonium from, the ammonia. 

Both companies use the chemical Sodium Formaldehydesulfoxylate (SFS). That binds with Ammonia NH3, creating chemical aminomethansulfonate (AMS) and turns the Ammonia into Ammonium NH4. For a lack of better explanation, a "non-toxic salt."

Seachem however does not disclose the use of SFS, however a lot of what is written in that deeply detailed excerpt, shows that it can't be anything otherwise. In the past they have disclosed that used Sulfur Dioxide and Sulfur Thiosulfate in the past, but no longer uses those chemicals. Fritz holds the patent for it, so for Prime to even available to the market, they had to add an extra molecule (which I do not know at this time of writing) to put their product out.

Seachem only claims that Prime binds to ammonia and creates a non-toxic form of ammonia that free-floats within the water column.

Fritz however, claims that Complete binds to ammonia to change it into a solid and locks it indefinitely.

Edited January 30, 2023 by SRBetta

[jwcarlson]

On 1/30/2023 at 3:31 AM, SRBetta said:

scouring for a 2.5gal QT tank

Just use a bucket or tote. 

 

This thread might be worth looking at... 

https://forum.aquariumcoop.com/topic/30020-a-brief-history-of-prime/

Edited January 30, 2023 by jwcarlson

[AndEEss]

On 1/29/2023 at 11:43 PM, SRBetta said:

Out of curiosity, what if you tested for nitrite at the 6 hour mark?

My wife has me testing every 6 hours, she wants to see an emergence of each stage ( i tested Ammonia at the 10 minute mark after adding, the 3 hours mark to verify, and then the 6 hour mark to double check). But the issue is that we never saw Ammonia to begin with. Now that we've added it superficially, we're not seeing Nitrite or Nitrates, either.

True... We're just trying to spot when our bacterial colony starts. I don't want to do a fish-in cycle, but I am starting to think I should. 

It's just weird how the tank is acting right now, here's some closeups of the "life" we have and I can't help but imagine there HAS to be a bacterial colony that has developed in here already. I can only assume that bacteria to break down the Ammonia have began to emerge, but not getting any readings from the Nitrite.

I know it sounds very impatient. It's just weird how I woke up to the stench of rotting fish everywhere due to the Hikari Krill being broken down after sitting in the tank for 2 weeks, but confused how there were no ammonia traces until I had to superficially add it.

 

It won’t matter; bacteria that eat nitrite aren’t stopping and starting their consumption. It’s continuous. 

[RockMongler]

Remember, Ammonia is NH3, Ammonium is NH4+.  When you have an  low pH/an excess of H+ floating around in solution, some of that H will bind up with the Ammonia to form Ammonium.  

Ammonium is less reactive/poisonous to aquatic life, but if your pH is higher, there is less excess H+ floating around, so less to bond with the Ammonia to form Ammonium.  That's why if you do have high Ammonia readings, your fish might be perfectly fine, but if your pH swings upward for some reason, you can have rapid onset death of your livestock.  And different ammonia tests you might be able to get (Coop test strips, other company test strips, liquid tests, etc) that use different chemicals to indicate the presence of ammonia/ammonium can give different readings depending on how the indicator they are using works.  Actually testing the difference between the two is hard, because a lot of the indicator chemicals contain things that will change the pH, and therefor, change if you have Ammonia/Ammonium present and in what ratios.

I suspect a lot of the dechlor/water treatment chemicals have some sort of buffer in the solution that will readily give up H+ to ammonia to let it turn into ammonium, but not drop your pH like crazy. All of the chemicals in the Nitrogen cycle we all look at in our aquariums are 'bad', but are varying degrees of bad.  My understanding is something like Nitrite is worse than Ammonia is worse than Ammonium is worse than Nitrate, but all can be toxic to livestock in high enough concentrations.  Nitrate is bad at high concentrations, but at lower concentrations its great as a nitrogen source for plants, and many of us dose nitrate specifically for our plants.

See: http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Articles/TonyGriffitts/Ammonia.htm
https://crops.extension.iastate.edu/cropnews/2008/04/surface-waters-ammonium-not-ammonia-–-part-1

The issue with discussing water chemistry, is it's seriously complex, and most people don't have all the tools necessary to determine *all* of their water paramenters. Even with people who are highly educated in various science fields, it's easy to not always grasp the complexity of water chemistry, and make mistakes. The Coop test strips give you the most common parameters, but even the relationships between simple things like pH, temp, and ammonia concentration is a fairly complex beast.  This is why you will often find varying advice when it comes to upacking fish from shipping in a bag.  If you mix different waters (From the bag, and from your system) to acclimate, you might risk pushing that super poopy fish water in the bag from a low pH, with low ammonia toxicity up into the more toxic range with a higher pH or different temperature.

My advice is pick products that work for you.  I use API Stress Coat to treat my tap water for my tanks, and once I got a cycle going, it's easy to start new tanks using seeded material from an existing tank.  I could probably go order bulk Sodium Thiosulfate for a lot cheaper, and mix up my own dechlorination solution, but I use little enough, that I get a pre-made product with extra "Nice" stuff like aloe just in case.  It hasn't seemed to hurt them, and I don't want to fix what ain't broken.

[SRBetta]

Appreciate the responses above. 24 hour update:

Mostly the same, although we had Ammonia drop 1ppm, but zero nitrite readings still. I know it was mentioned earlier that nitrite may never be found in testing... However, we ended up topping off the ammonia back up to 2ppm after dosing Fritz Turbo 700 since that arrived today. 

Going to test tomorrow and see... Again, we know we may never see nitrites pop up in testing....

But, and here's the biggest caveat I never mentioned out of sheer embarrassment and complete rookie mistake.

When I had originally setup the tank, I did not Prime the water prior to adding to the tank.

So we setup the tank, planted everything. Added in 5 gallons of water to bring it to half, ensured everything we planted in the substrate stayed, making adjustments as needed. Then I topped off the tank. Then I added Prime to the water.

Ever since then, with this in the back of my mind, I realized, I may have killed any and all bacteria with chlorine starting from the first hour of tank setup.

This is why I have been testing so much and had to superficially add ammonia to the tank and just been relentlessly trying to visually see bacteria in the tank via repeated testing. 

The plants just have not been doing so hot either. Which, we understand may be melting, but it could also be straight chlorine death. 

The fact that I dosed 9x the normal dose of Flourish on accident a couple days ago with no algae bloom, but more diatom growth also makes me believe there is still chlorine present. 

Won't know till we can figure this out. Might have to start from scratch and at the end of the day, was just a $180 plant and substrate loss. A mistake I hopefully won't recreate in the future.

For whatever reason, it seems to be hard to find chlorine or chloramine test kits. I see Sera sells a kit, but I hate mismatched things (Binning Seachem Prime, Stability, Flourish, Flourish Excel and several meds from them all for the Fritz I have ordered two days ago, only thing mismatched is the Easy Green and the Dr. Tim's Ammonia).

My water district uses chloramine for it's final disinfection with a range of ND - 3.5ppm with an average of 1.8. Would really like to test those values.

Edited February 1, 2023 by SRBetta

[nabokovfan87]

Needless to say, the initial post here was a lot of thoughts and a lot of stress!  I feel bad for you that all of these things have led to a severely, troubled, jumbled mess. 

Welcome to the forums, and I hope we are able to help out.

Firstly, understand that a lot of the ACO advice is based on things Cory has personally done for 10+ years in the hobby.  These aren't recommendations based on labels, but experience.  As someone who had to write manuals for a living, I can tell you the information in them is important.  Some of it is copy/paste and information that gets repeated leads to an over abundance of information and serious overload when it comes to what is the correct method.  I myself was confused at the exact same ingredients, but difference in directions between the API meds and the Fritz versions.  Same active ingredients, but a different set of steps.

Dechlorinators, meds, and bottled bacteria all really shouldn't be used in conjunction.  The goal is to setup the tank, get it going, then to bring in fish and to use meds once the tank is established.

If you're concerned with dechlorinators causing issues with dosing in anything, the common advice is to wait 24-48 hours and then dose in whatever you need to.

To the question in the title of the thread....

The reason why it's not more common is simply because seachem stability and API are in just about every single big box store across the country.  Other brands are newer, have fancy new labels and terms, but might be exactly what we've been using for decades.  There isn't really a legitimate reason to switch.  Personally, I get what is on sale, I get what makes sense to get at the time, or what I have used before and has worked.

 

[SRBetta]

Well. We pretty much started the water over from scratch since the beginning of this thread. 

Used Fritz Guard and Fritz Turbo 700 two days in a row and after days of testing every 6 hours. We've finally got this (see pic below)

The cycle is kind of slow, and information out there is saying we should see Ammonia drop to 0 within 24 hours. But with a current 48 hour turnaround, we're happy with this.

Going to grab some Pygmy Corys tomorrow at Aquarium Fish Depot in San Diego and then monitor the parameters closely afterwards. However, I might do the QT-trio in the 3gal QT tank setup I pieced together with an emergency tank from Petco. 

Next will be the Betta and soon after a 20+ gallon aquascaped setup for some other Nano fish.

Really excited. I still can't stop ordering stuff...

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by SRBetta

[reefhugger]

You have gotten some great feedback on tank setup/cycling so I have nothing to add.  But I did react to the internet nightmare of research done, and want to add my experiences.  I have learned to rely on only a very few trusted sources of information including this forum, Cory and Irene, and Prime Time Aquatics.  I stay far away from other social media sites; there is so much misinformation from well meaning folks and "common knowledge".   I have found comforting consensus staying with sources who have established successful  processes for setting up and maintaining healthy aquariums.  Cory's video on cycling was a revelation to my cluttered understanding of what I was trying to accomplish.  And my tanks are the better for it.   You are undertaking a journey that will have some successes and some failures and will not ever really get to a "destination".  To me that's what the fun is;   there's always something new to learn.  Enjoy the process!