Sphagnum peat for aquariums?

[Seized]

I’m working on a black water aquarium but with swampy/Bog style plants. I’m thinking of using sphagnum peat capped with sand as my substrate capped with some sand. My question is will the peat cause my water to be too acidic and would crushed coral balance out the acidity while keeping the black water tannic look. Thanks everyone!

[Fish Folk]

On 1/27/2023 at 6:03 PM, Seized said:

I’m working on a black water aquarium but with swampy/Bog style plants. I’m thinking of using sphagnum peat capped with sand as my substrate capped with some sand. My question is will the peat cause my water to be too acidic and would crushed coral balance out the acidity while keeping the black water tannic look. Thanks everyone!

As far as I understand this (I am not a chemist)  . . . in general, peat will add some tannins and at least somewhat lower your pH -- especially if your water is "soft" (i.e. has low KH). If you do as you describe, you'll get one sort of effect. I'll say that you'll need to wait awhile for that peat to settle before capping it. The thing is, as soon as you change water, the effectiveness of the peat will be less than to begin with. This will continue diminishing over time with each water change -- since new water brings new parameters for the peat to interact with. If your water is hard and if your pH is high, peat will only have a limited effect.

I think you want to ask yourself some questions:

(1) Is the blackwater look the goal?

(2) Is blackwater fish stocking the goal?

Personally, I like the idea of learning a lot here, and investing accordingly. However, if you just want a good look after each water change, I use a product similar to this:

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Fish Folk

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/27/2023 at 3:03 PM, Seized said:

I’m working on a black water aquarium but with swampy/Bog style plants. I’m thinking of using sphagnum peat capped with sand as my substrate capped with some sand. My question is will the peat cause my water to be too acidic and would crushed coral balance out the acidity while keeping the black water tannic look. Thanks everyone!

There is a few things going on to unpack here...

1.  Wanting a tank with low PH and tannins (those don't both necessarily have to be true)
2.  Wanting to use sphagnum with sand.
3.  Wanting to have a swampy/bog style aquascape with plants.

When it comes to active substrates (i.e. soil) you have substrates that do lower the PH and act as a buffer.  For aquascapes and for Caridina shrimp tanks it is common practice to have that type of substrate to pull the buffer the PH down.  This can be done a variety of ways, but in most cases you're talking about a very large amount of active substrate.  I can't say this can or can't be done with sphagnum, but I would be weary of too much phosphate using that method resulting in algae issues.

https://www.shrimpscience.com/articles/active-substrates-for-bee-shrimp/

Here's a video for some inspiration for you.

 

On 1/27/2023 at 3:03 PM, Seized said:

would crushed coral balance out the acidity

What are your water parameters from the tap?  What are the parameters after your aerate the sample for 24 hours?

[Seized]

Honestly I would be happy if I can have good tannins but a PH of 6-7 would be best. Would crushed coral be able to balance it the Ph out or could I use some other means like water changes or using Seachem stability?

[Seized]

On 1/28/2023 at 3:22 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

There is a few things going on to unpack here...

1.  Wanting a tank with low PH and tannins (those don't both necessarily have to be true)
2.  Wanting to use sphagnum with sand.
3.  Wanting to have a swampy/bog style aquascape with plants.

When it comes to active substrates (i.e. soil) you have substrates that do lower the PH and act as a buffer.  For aquascapes and for Caridina shrimp tanks it is common practice to have that type of substrate to pull the buffer the PH down.  This can be done a variety of ways, but in most cases you're talking about a very large amount of active substrate.  I can't say this can or can't be done with sphagnum, but I would be weary of too much phosphate using that method resulting in algae issues.

https://www.shrimpscience.com/articles/active-substrates-for-bee-shrimp/

Here's a video for some inspiration for you.

 

What are your water parameters from the tap?  What are the parameters after your aerate the sample for 24 hours?

Super soft water. Low KH, GH, hardly any chlorine. No nitrates or ammonia either. Maybe a small amount of iron but otherwise very clean. PH is right at 6-7. Not sure about phosphates but I’d imagine it’s slow as well because I don’t have many algae issues unless I use mineral additives like seachem equilibrium.

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/28/2023 at 8:45 PM, Seized said:

Super soft water. Low KH, GH, hardly any chlorine. No nitrates or ammonia either. Maybe a small amount of iron but otherwise very clean. PH is right at 6-7. Not sure about phosphates but I’d imagine it’s slow as well because I don’t have many algae issues unless I use mineral additives like seachem equilibrium.

So basically, ignoring blackwater, you control your PH by dosing in KH additives (not equilibrium).  This is very similar to my water with the exception, normally, of GH.  My PH starts at 6.5-6.8 with a max of 7.  My KH starts at 40.  Once you add fish your KH will drop, resulting in your PH dropping.  So if you start at say.... 6.8... after a handful of fish add some bioload, even with great filtration your KH and PH drop down.  Plants also use up KH resulting in that dropping further.  

An active substrate could get you down to the 5.0-6.0 range which is good for stuff like Caridina shrimp or species that tolerate extremely acidic water.  Some fish might only go down as far as 6.5.  So there are things like PH burn you could see if you stock that incorrectly and you add in some active substrate on top of it.  These are all just things to mull over and consider.

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 1/29/2023 at 1:08 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Once you add fish your KH will drop, resulting in your PH dropping.  So if you start at say.... 6.8... after a handful of fish add some bioload, even with great filtration your KH and PH drop down.  Plants also use up KH resulting in that dropping further. 

Could elaborate on this, if you don't mind? I know tanks have a tendency to acidify over time, but I never really understood why. If I'm understanding you correctly, plants and animals (and microbes, I guess) use up the carbonates and bicarbonates that make up KH as part of their growth and/or metabolism, and as the KH gets depleted and organics (humic, formic, and tannic acids) build up, the pH falls? Do I have that about right? And if so, I guess just regular water changes, depending on your parameters from the tap, would prevent that? Thanks in advance!

[Seized]

On 1/29/2023 at 10:02 AM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Could elaborate on this, if you don't mind? I know tanks have a tendency to acidify over time, but I never really understood why. If I'm understanding you correctly, plants and animals (and microbes, I guess) use up the carbonates and bicarbonates that make up KH as part of their growth and/or metabolism, and as the KH gets depleted and organics (humic, formic, and tannic acids) build up, the pH falls? Do I have that about right? And if so, I guess just regular water changes, depending on your parameters from the tap, would prevent that? Thanks in advance!

Basically yes. Ill be supplementing the KH and maybe some GH to be able to have snails with the tannins. My water is soft but otherwise fine. I think I’ll do small regular water changes every week for the first month and check in on the PH to keep it stable. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/29/2023 at 7:02 AM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Could elaborate on this, if you don't mind? I know tanks have a tendency to acidify over time, but I never really understood why. If I'm understanding you correctly, plants and animals (and microbes, I guess) use up the carbonates and bicarbonates that make up KH as part of their growth and/or metabolism, and as the KH gets depleted and organics (humic, formic, and tannic acids) build up, the pH falls? Do I have that about right? And if so, I guess just regular water changes, depending on your parameters from the tap, would prevent that? Thanks in advance!

I'll use the broad term of "organics" but that could be botanicals, plants, food, etc.

Organics in the water use up your KH. This in turn drops PH. This has to do with how KH works and impacts the water ions themselves. This is delved into in the ACO blog article here.

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/ph-gh-kh

So the way I view and interact with that issue is that I try to dose in just enough KH buffer to keep the tank stable. I want to raise KH, but not PH. Because of my attempt to raise KH my PH does rise, but is generally stable.

In my tank I go from 40 up to 60 ppm KH. If I get anything above 60 I'm happy because it just means I can feed heavy or even feel like the tank itself isn't going to crash. PH might go from 7.2 down to 6.5, but that's a little better to me than going from 6.8 down to 6.2.

To expand on your question though, blackwater adds onto what organics do. Similar, almost identically so, to the way tea works and can benefit your health. Dissolving these particles into the water can be additive for certain ions we want to ingest. Humic acid is a result of the wood and the botanicals "steeping."  That added acid of course acidifies the water in turn and can lower PH. The more you add, you do further that process. You can definitely overdo it and cause some PH burn on species. That being said, I think we all know someone with wood in a tank and things are perfectly fine. Maybe a tinge to the water, but it's not excessive and still falls into that chasm of "blackwater"... Just cleaned and clarified via water changes.

Doubling down on the acid production by having low KH, organics bonding with KH ions, dropping your PH, and having the above affect from the botanicals releasing acidic ions can lead to some issues, but there are ways to do it right, or to just keep species that prefer that environment.

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 1/29/2023 at 4:34 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I'll use the broad term of "organics" but that could be botanicals, plants, food, etc.

Organics in the water use up your KH. This in turn drops PH. This has to do with how KH works and impacts the water ions themselves. This is delved into in the ACO blog article here.

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/ph-gh-kh

So the way I view and interact with that issue is that I try to dose in just enough KH buffer to keep the tank stable. I want to raise KH, but not PH. Because of my attempt to raise KH my PH does rise, but is generally stable.

In my tank I go from 40 up to 60 ppm KH. If I get anything above 60 I'm happy because it just means I can feed heavy or even feel like the tank itself isn't going to crash. PH might go from 7.2 down to 6.5, but that's a little better to me than going from 6.8 down to 6.2.

To expand on your question though, blackwater adds onto what organics do. Similar, almost identically so, to the way tea works and can benefit your health. Dissolving these particles into the water can be additive for certain ions we want to ingest. Humic acid is a result of the wood and the botanicals "steeping."  That added acid of course acidifies the water in turn and can lower PH. The more you add, you do further that process. You can definitely overdo it and cause some PH burn on species. That being said, I think we all know someone with wood in a tank and things are perfectly fine. Maybe a tinge to the water, but it's not excessive and still falls into that chasm of "blackwater"... Just cleaned and clarified via water changes.

Doubling down on the acid production by having low KH, organics bonding with KH ions, dropping your PH, and having the above affect from the botanicals releasing acidic ions can lead to some issues, but there are ways to do it right, or to just keep species that prefer that environment.

Thanks for explaining that all so clearly and thoroughly!