Are dwarf cichlids happy alone?

[Lennie]

I've been thinking of it for some time, while I've been making lots of research for my new tank stocking plan.

I guess we have a consensus that, when it comes to schooling fish, it is always the more the merrier!🙂

But what about the small-middle sized tank centerpiece fishes except dwarf gourami and bettas? Especially dwarf cichlids or maybe angels in low numbers, considering ACO recommends max 4 in a 29g community tank?

Do you guys think that  only one Apistogramma or one Gbr/bolivian ram etc. are actually happy when kept alone? They should like it in a more crowded group rather than being alone right? Maybe like a harem like other cichlids usually prefer to?

When it comes to species like discus, or african cichlids, or sometimes angels, we always say at least a  group of X, or 1m:4/5f. 

What makes rams or apistogrammas suitable as nano tank centerpiece alone other than any other cichlid or fish that are kept in bigger groups but not tightly schooling or territorial.

I somehow feel like dwarf cichlids like rams and apistos would not like to be kept alone, but we keep them so they fit in small tanks and don't have big territory/agression problems in there. But do they actually like it in a way for example a Betta does?

What would be the ideal of keeping an apistogramma pair/harem in a community tank / min tank size?

Would love to hear about your ideas!

I'm interested in keeping them, and would love to hear experiences/opinions of yours!🙂

 

[Theplatymaster]

they should be fine alone. i know @anewbieand @tolstoy21 have some experience with apistos. As for a pair community setting. Lots of room, maybe minimum of 20long. Dont do any bottom dwellers, so no cories, these would get killed fast if the pair wanted to spawn. Ive heard people use things like hatchetfish and endlers as dithers, so the parent protect the fry.

[Lennie]

Thanks! @Theplatymaster

Would love to hear further opinions!

I don't plan any sort of breeding project, but if they do better in groups, I may go for groups.  Or if they love big groups that will cause so much agression, then I may avoid them at all. Still did not decide what I will be getting.

One of the rams, pearl gourami, apistos, or angels is what I'm still considering and searching for everyday :')

Talking for a planted 50x50cm cube tank, 125L/33g. 

 

But besides my stocking stuff, I really wonder what they really love, especially dwarf cichlids! 

I wonder whether they are actually more "nano centerpiece fish" compared to another harem cichlid

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Lennie

[Theplatymaster]

On 1/26/2023 at 5:27 PM, Lennie said:

 

But besides my stocking stuff, I really wonder what they really love, especially dwarf cichlids! 

I wonder whether they are actually more "nano centerpiece fish" compared to another harem cichlid

 

I think they do fine alone, Ive seen so many places that people reccomend just one as a nano centerpiece fish. As for harems, ive heard a male and female will pair off, than bully the rest.

[Lennie]

 

On 1/27/2023 at 1:28 AM, Theplatymaster said:

I think they do fine alone, Ive seen so many places that people reccomend just one as a nano centerpiece fish. As for harems, ive heard a male and female will pair off, than bully the rest.

Just like Angels. But people mostly keep angels together from the start or maybe sometimes forever. That is one of the reasons why I'm kinda curious!

 

Btw, Hey @Zenzo,

When I think of cichlids, you are one of the names that come to my mind first. Would love to hear your opinion! As I've seen your video from 4 yrs ago when you've kept 6 apistos in a community tank 65gT. How was the experience? Do they to better in groups? what would you suggest in smaller sized tanks, maybe community tanks? 🙃

[Theplatymaster]

On 1/26/2023 at 5:45 PM, Lennie said:

 

Just like Angels. But people mostly keep angels together from the start or maybe sometimes forever. That is one of the reasons why I'm kinda curious!

 

Btw, Hey @Zenzo,

When I think of cichlids, you are one of the names that come to my mind first. Would love to hear your opinion! As I've seen your video from 4 yrs ago when you've kept 6 apistos in a community tank 65gT. How was the experience? Do they to better in groups? what would you suggest in smaller sized tanks, maybe community tanks? 🙃

i thought zenzo was more into African Cichlids than south americans?

[Lennie]

On 1/27/2023 at 1:47 AM, Theplatymaster said:

i thought zenzo was more into African Cichlids than south americans?

Mostly ye, but he has videos where he has apistos, angels and discus!

 

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 1/26/2023 at 5:28 PM, Theplatymaster said:

As for harems, ive heard a male and female will pair off, than bully the rest.

For what it's worth, the owner of my LFS says one of his suppliers will only ship Apistogramma cacatuoides in 1M:2F trios (the other ships in 1M:1F pairs), so I guess that can work. In my case, I got a trio, but we sexed them incorrectly in the store, so it was a 2M:1F trio. One of the males and the female paired off and tried to kill the other male, so I rescued him from the 55 gallon community tank into an otherwise empty 10 gallon bachelor pad. The pair then immediately spawned, and while the female drives off the sterbai cories and otocinclus from wherever she's supervising the fry, I don't think I'd call it aggression per se. More like assertiveness. It's got a lot of hardscape to break up sightlines and is moderately-to-heavily planted.

And the lonesome male in his bachelor pad has only been there a week, but he seems to be doing okay. His tank is right next to my desk, so he watches me push spreadsheets and emails all day. Maybe I'm anthropomorphizing, maybe I'm projecting, but he seems a little bored. It's only temporary until I can re-home or re-tank him.

Anyway, that's my very limited experience (less than two months counting quarantine time) with dwarf cichlids.

[anewbie]

On 1/26/2023 at 4:28 PM, Theplatymaster said:

I think they do fine alone, Ive seen so many places that people reccomend just one as a nano centerpiece fish. As for harems, ive heard a male and female will pair off, than bully the rest.

Depends on the species. Until you provide the species i cannot declare you correct or incorrect. Cockatoo are harem breeders period.

 

[Theplatymaster]

@anewbie thats a question for @Lennie who didnt clarify a species. I was hearing about it happening to agazizii (pardon my bad spelling)

[anewbie]

On 1/26/2023 at 6:53 PM, Theplatymaster said:

@anewbie thats a question for @Lennie who didnt clarify a species. I was hearing about it happening to agazizii (pardon my bad spelling)

apistogramma agassiz are harem breeders.

[Theplatymaster]

On 1/26/2023 at 7:55 PM, anewbie said:

apistogramma agassiz are harem breeders.

huh, well you're the expert, not me. Just saying what i heard

[anewbie]

On 1/26/2023 at 6:58 PM, Theplatymaster said:

huh, well you're the expert, not me. Just saying what i heard

a) I'm not an expert but i know about this species. 

b) Not only what you heard is incorrect but you need to understand how harem breeders work as there is strong aggression between m/f and an improperly configured aquarium will result in m/f death. Just how the species work. Angels pair up as do german blue rams but not Apistogramma agassiz.

[Theplatymaster]

On 1/26/2023 at 8:01 PM, anewbie said:

 

b) Not only what you heard is incorrect but you need to understand how harem breeders work as there is strong aggression between m/f and an improperly configured aquarium will result in m/f death. Just how the species work. Angels pair up as do german blue rams but not Apistogramma agassiz.

fine, i apologize, my source must have had an improper setup than. And why dont you explain to us what a proper set up is, instead of just proving me wrong, which i tottally beleive.(I can be wrong)

[anewbie]

On 1/26/2023 at 7:19 PM, Theplatymaster said:

fine, i apologize, my source must have had an improper setup than. And why dont you explain to us what a proper set up is, instead of just proving me wrong, which i tottally beleive.(I can be wrong)

Because the male will attack the female and drive her out of his territory if she is not ready to breed there needs to be adequate hiding places for her. Likewise the female views the male as a threat when she has frys and so there needs to be adequate hiding places or areas that male can retreat to when the female has frys. These hiding places have be large and total; adding a coconut cave is usually not sufficient and hte tank has to be large enough to support these hiding areas (20 long is usually safe in terms of total area). For a smaller more passive fish like A. borelli some folks have success with a 15 but there is a wide variance in fish behavior and others have had their female kill the male when she has frys. Some breeders remove the male when the female has frys. Anyway all of this was said in another thread so it seem repetitive to constantly repeat it.

[Lennie]

On 1/27/2023 at 3:53 AM, Theplatymaster said:

@anewbie thats a question for @Lennie who didnt clarify a species.

I basically created to topic to learn about peoples experiences with apistos/rams or maybe kribs in general rather than my own stocking plans tbf. So there is no certain species I wanted to ask for. 

I just wanted to see if we really understand the needs/standards of dwarf cichlids in our small-medium sized tanks as a single centerpiece fish!🙃 We were talking with @beastie couple days ago, and I've never thought they can be bored alone until she mentiones it.

We are so used to hearing the idea of keeping dwarf as one centerpiece fish no agression type of suggestion. So I wanted to learn more from experiences!

 

On 1/27/2023 at 3:38 AM, Rube_Goldfish said:

LFS says one of his suppliers will only ship Apistogramma cacatuoides in 1M:2F trios

 

Yea! My LFS sells Apistogramma cacatuoides, A.Macmesteri Red Shoulder, A.Borelli Opal, A.Alenquer and A.Hongsloi in pairs;

and Apistogramma pandura and A.agasiizi fire red as 1m:2f. I think my LFS fails there as @anewbie also mentioned they  cacatuoides like it in harem! Maybe they are just being cautious about agression, can be hard to keep in small tanks in lfs for sale if they get super agressive maybe.

Bolivian rams and GBR/golds, kribensis etc are all sold alone..

 

On 1/27/2023 at 3:38 AM, Rube_Goldfish said:

And the lonesome male in his bachelor pad has only been there a week, but he seems to be doing okay. His tank is right next to my desk, so he watches me push spreadsheets and emails all day. Maybe I'm anthropomorphizing, maybe I'm projecting, but he seems a little bored.

Naw, poor baby. That was actually the reason why I wanted to ask.

Many thanks for your response Rube, as always^^

 

On 1/27/2023 at 4:01 AM, anewbie said:

 Just how the species work. Angels pair up as do german blue rams but not Apistogramma agassiz.

That's interesting! I didn't  even know they even have different preferences between their sub-species. Probably that's why they are sold as 1m:2f in my lfs.  Fire reds look the cutest to me. It is interesting to learn!

So can we say, single apisto is likely to be unhappy, and rather prefer to be kept in harems or pairs based on subspecies?

Do you have any experince/opinion about rams being kept alone? I love the look of golden rams too 🙂 How agressive they are compared to apistos/nonpaired rams if kept in groups and gradually pair over time?

 

I don't even know about keeping dwarf cichlids, as I already have lots of aquasoil, and only sand in front of my tank.  So I'm not sure it would be good for dwarf cichlids anyway. So yea, I wanted to learn about cichlids more rather than a specific stocking plan for myself. I'm not sure front sand is enough for them to meet their sand needs, and whether they would like aquasoil.

 

On 1/27/2023 at 11:03 AM, anewbie said:

Anyway all of this was said in another thread so it seem repetitive to constantly repeat it.

If you think it will be any help regarding my questions, can you share the topic please? I would like to read further.

 

Thanks a lot btw. Learnt lots of info about apistos already. I'm happy:)

cheers!😊

[anewbie]

On 1/27/2023 at 2:18 AM, Lennie said:

 

and Apistogramma pandura and A.agasiizi fire red as 1m:2f. I think my LFS fails there as @anewbie also mentioned they  cacatuoides like it in harem! Maybe they are just being cautious about agression, can be hard to keep in small tanks in lfs for sale if they get super agressive maybe.

 

This statement is horribly misleading. They don't 'like it in harem" they are harem breeders. There is a huge difference. What this means is that a male will establish a territory and breed with any available female who enters the territory and drive out any female not interested in breeding. That is horribly different than saying the fish wants a harem or is better off in a harem. It is perfectly find to sell the male cockatoo with 0, 1, 2, ... females - you just have to make sure the tank is large enough or you remove females who are not ready to breed and conversely the tank is large enough or you remove the male when the female has frys.

-

You can keep 1 female, 2 female, ... 50 female - the male behavior is the same - this is not a commentary on male health or preference. He protects the territory and looks for females that are willing to breed. This is rather different than pair forming cichild where they will work together to protect the area; drive away both male and females not in the pair and work together to raise the fry.

--

Btw panduro are pair forming - but the females are very picking on partner. When a pair form you can either remove the other female or they will kill it - your choice.  Also panduro establish are larger area so it is unlikely that the 2nd female will find a 'safe' place.

-

I *think* mac are pair forming but not 100% sure without looking it up.

 

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 1/27/2023 at 6:56 PM, anewbie said:

What this means is that a male will establish a territory and breed with any available female who enters the territory and drive out any female not interested in breeding.

When I was first starting research on A. cacatuoides, I'd heard that the male can be picky about who he breeds with and will reject some females, sometimes aggressively. Based on what you're saying, I wonder if the person who told me that was misinterpreting the male driving out a female not ready or interested in spawning with him rejecting her as a potential mate. Your explanation makes more sense to me, anyway.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Rube_Goldfish

[DeadStang]

I do not have a lot of experience with Apistogrammas, but I have 3 A. cacatuoides -- 1 male and 2 female. They are in a lightly stocked 20 gallon community tank and I have not seen aggression between any of the 3... One female has yellowed up and is large while the other has stayed smaller and pale. None of them "hang around" together at all, but when the fish are out and about, there is no chasing or issues (yet). They all seem to inhabit different areas of the tank and there are a lot of hiding places and plants, so maybe that has helped keep them peaceful. But I note that each fish is very curious and interactive with me, so I feel like any of them would be ok alone, also.

[Lennie]

@anewbie thanks a lot! That really helped me to understand the concept.

I personally can't take that sort of potential agression myself. It kinda makes me worry, even if its their natural behavior.

At the end of the day, I believe we are the ones that put them in X-size tank,  so they really have only the swimming space, decorations, or even fish group size that we decide to provide and make it available to them to deal with the agression, unlike natures unlimited resources. So I feel like it would be a duty of mine to deal with the agression myself. Cause in nature, that fish can just swim away or establish a territory at least more safely in another location rather than facing constant agression, or death maybe. So it feels like my decision rather than fish's nature when kept at home.

So I'm not sure if I will be keeping them after learning a lot about them. If I do, a single apisto seems like the best bet for me I guess.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Lennie

[jwcarlson]

On 1/27/2023 at 5:56 PM, anewbie said:

 

I *think* mac are pair forming but not 100% sure without looking it up.

 

Is there some sort of database that contains this information?  I find wildly conflicting views when I go a-googling. 

[anewbie]

On 1/28/2023 at 6:07 AM, jwcarlson said:

Is there some sort of database that contains this information?  I find wildly conflicting views when I go a-googling. 

I do not know of a database - there are a few books but most of the better ones are in german and out of date in the sense that they were written 20 years ago and new species have been found. Which species do you find conflicting views? I.e, there really aren't multiple views just mis-information. A given species has a specific behavior and that is the behavior of the species regardless of what people say. One thing that i do find annoying is a lot of people will post xyz about (for example) apistogramma; but that is a genus not a species and individual species have wildly different behavior. It is like saying mammals are carnivore and then feeding antelopes meat... 

Edited January 28, 2023 by anewbie

[Colu]

Most comprehensive book I have found on dwarf cichlids is cichlids atlas volume 2 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Colu

[anewbie]

FYI: Mac are pair forming. Note that for most apistogramma the pairs can be for just a breeding cycle though sometime they will pair for life. Also usually the male are 'casual poly' that is they will happily breed with another female - but in the aquarium that can be a bit difficult as the female for some of these species can be quite aggressive towards another female.

[jwcarlson]

On 1/28/2023 at 10:08 AM, anewbie said:

FYI: Mac are pair forming. Note that for most apistogramma the pairs can be for just a breeding cycle though sometime they will pair for life. Also usually the male are 'casual poly' that is they will happily breed with another female - but in the aquarium that can be a bit difficult as the female for some of these species can be quite aggressive towards another female.

What about hongsloi?

Regarding previous reply wondering where I'd seen conflicting information, forums, I guess.  And I'm fully aware you've got to sort everything out and find good information.  In a lot of cases it seems pretty evenly split.  So at that point I just figure experiences might vary wildly depending on individual specimens, local water, tank setup, etc.  And I'm totally OK with that.