Aquarium Science High School Class - Cycle Trouble

[Biotope Biologist]

In an attempt to brief I may have come off as vague. I apologize for that. I still haven’t mastered the whole brevity and clarity thing that has been drilled into my brain. More of a tangent guy with overarching themes that never actually touch. 😋

 

As for an accurate site other than ACO. I really don’t know. And I admit even with training, scientific articles can be hard to digest… and boring. I have attempted to sit in front of a computer screen and talk to myself about important information for hobbyists. But I’m uncomfortable with the idea. Still have about 5 hours of footage sitting on my comp in need of editing. And maybe thats the issue. I have a great fear of releasing misinformation to the public that I need to get over. It happens.

 

Im sure I’m not alone in this department which is why solid reliable concise info is hard to come by. @dasaltemelosguy and @Guppysnail have done a couple experiments/sleuthing with great findings though! It truly is inspiring!

[GoGreen]

Thank you everyone for your input and advice.  Our next attempt with a new class, which starts in 2 weeks, I will have them increase the ammonia concentration that they are maintaining after they have achieved the cycle.  That seems like the most likely culprit, even if I am skeptical of such a small amount of fish changing the numbers so much in 12 hours (questioning is my nature though as a science teacher).  I think I am also seeing some of the challenges of the class and making sure they follow the protocols; and emphasizing the outcome if they don't.   And while I won't dictate what they can get for the tank (within reason obviously) I will direct them in specific directions to hopefully mitigate some of the difficulties.  We are learning what retailers work the best as well; most of the fish that have struggled so far in both quarters have come in incredibly small from a specific retailer.  Not all of them, but most.   So I will caution the kids from buying from them in the future (usually I have not had any issues when I bought from them personally)  

Edited January 13, 2023 by GoGreen

[Odd Duck]

One of the things I like best about this forum is how my fellow nerds come out of the woodwork when they’re needed!

I suspect that everybody is a little bit right.  I think there’s a whole combination of things that are happening to make one tank work where one struggles.  I would generally recommend against starting with amphibians because they tend to be far more sensitive to chemistry issues.  I think there’s been enough straight nerding, though, so I’m going to tell a tale.

I have a 2 gallon tank that I started with a very nice, small piece of very well-seasoned wood that had already been in a tank for many months.  It had fairly recently been covered with some buces, then I got the tank.  I could not for the life of me get that tank to balance.  The test parameters were fine, but I constantly battled algae despite there also being several crypts, and some vesuvius and ‘Aflame’ swords in there.  It was quite heavily planted and very “overfiltered” with an ACO nano filter, and a tiny HOB with sponge pre-filter that was also packed with sponge.  I had only a couple very small ramshorns in there.  The snails would die.  Ramshorns!  Died.  Parameters well within limits.

I finally gave up on the wood after the buces started slowly dying and moved it out.  Cleaned up the tank and put a lava rock with a couple small Anubias in there.  Still had the vesuvius swords and some crypts.  New ramshorns.  Vesuvius swords overgrowing, still a bit of algae issues but MUCH better and snails lived.  Finally removed the vesuvius because they were a bit much in the tiny tank with my admittedly somewhat lackadaisical maintenance style.  Now it’s one of my favorite tanks currently.

My point in telling this whole story, is that what should have worked in the tank didn’t because even with massive biofiltration (relative to the size of the tank), it didn’t work because of the amount of wood in there.  Even though the wood brought with it beneficial bacteria to jump start the biofiltration, it just wouldn’t balance.  I now have a small trio of ramshorns in there and I recently saw a single bladder snail in there (sneaky booger).  But the tank looks good finally and I barely feed the snails.

There are so many factors to consider.  I haven’t used ammonia for a fishless cycle, ever.  I blind feed because I’m “old school” but that’s not quite as easily controllable or testable in a classroom situation.  I have seen more people struggle with using ammonia for fishless cycles, though.  Both with getting the cycle started and with the cycle being stable. I think tanks need to be “dirtier”.  I get ramshorns into my tanks almost immediately but I’m not adding ammonia, only lightly feeding every few days.  But I can nearly always clear the nitrite spike in just a couple weeks, often quicker.  I wait at least a couple more weeks to let plants establish good roots before adding fish, though, and I will start adding more food to “challenge” the system in that time frame.

I really like the idea of setting up comparison tanks - some use ammonia, some blind feed with controlled amounts, some use “gunk” from the established school tank, some use plants, some use new wood, some use old wood, etc, etc.  Talk about how there are a wide variety of different organisms that factor in to getting solid biofiltration working on a tank.  Each population of bacteria have their own parameters they need to prosper and some will die back under certain parameters, others will take over, etc.  Diversity is key - there’s a lesson all by itself.  You can even do a little segue into how it’s completely normal to find potentially pathogenic bacteria on an animal’s body but they don’t always cause disease until a certain bacterial population or density level is reached, or certain parameters get out of balance, or potential copathogens arrive, etc.

All this boils down to:  I think you likely need more “gunk” to establish the varied populations of beneficial bacteria that make a tank truly successful and stable.  Food for thought.  See what I did there?  Blind feed?  😉 😆  I’ll see myself out.

[Schuyler]

On 1/13/2023 at 11:07 AM, Odd Duck said:

I would generally recommend against starting with amphibians because they tend to be far more sensitive to chemistry issues.

Second this, I started with an African Dwarf Frog. Talk about learning curve... Trying to keep parameters in control while trying to figure out how to get the frog to actually eat.

Froggy went back to the store thanks to some advice from people online.

[Bill]

On 1/12/2023 at 2:01 PM, dasaltemelosguy said:

I too would STRONGLY recommend that ANY information gotten from that site be VERIFIED.

That is sound advice to follow for information stated on ANY site. I specifically mentioned that site in the context of cycling (topic of this thread), because there are relatively simple tests listed that anyone can try, and get some insights into things like "does bacteria in a bottle" actually work. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Bill

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/12/2023 at 8:09 AM, GoGreen said:

The kids who cycle early, put in about .25 ppm of ammonia every testing day to ensure the bacteria stay alive.  

To expand on the other comments above, maybe the upside of cycle issues is to test two different methods. Do it yourself, then do it with the class if you think it's an interesting experiment.

Half the tanks cycle them with your current method, the others, cycle them by adding flake food every few days.

I would be curious to see how the cycle results were depending on what rocks were or weren't in the tanks.

In addition to the sponges, potentially require each tank to have a very small amount of bio rings or biomax (aquaclear) media or some lava rock as part of the scape.

[modified lung]

On 1/14/2023 at 8:56 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

To expand on the other comments above, maybe the upside of cycle issues is to test two different methods. Do it yourself, then do it with the class if you think it's an interesting experiment.

Half the tanks cycle them with your current method, the others, cycle them by adding flake food every few days.

I would be curious to see how the cycle results were depending on what rocks were or weren't in the tanks.

In addition to the sponges, potentially require each tank to have a very small amount of bio rings or biomax (aquaclear) media or some lava rock as part of the scape.

I like this idea.

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 1/14/2023 at 11:56 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

To expand on the other comments above, maybe the upside of cycle issues is to test two different methods. Do it yourself, then do it with the class if you think it's an interesting experiment.

Half the tanks cycle them with your current method, the others, cycle them by adding flake food every few days.

I would be curious to see how the cycle results were depending on what rocks were or weren't in the tanks.

In addition to the sponges, potentially require each tank to have a very small amount of bio rings or biomax (aquaclear) media or some lava rock as part of the scape.

If you do this sort of cycling comparison experiment, could you do swabs of the filter media and put them under a microscope? I've seen speculation that different cycling methods (and variables) promote the growth of different cycling microbes, but I don't know if anyone has ever had any real evidence of that, and I'm curious!

[TheSwissAquarist]

 

On 1/12/2023 at 5:53 PM, Aiden Carter said:

Wait, your school system has an aquarium science class?!?!! I want one: (

Welcome to the club! 😂.