Blackwater Bloody Mary Neo Setup

[nabokovfan87]

I will start by saying that if you haven't seen travelers in netflix, please go ahead and bookmark that!

Secondly, let's take a nice long breath here and exhale slowly.....

For months now I have been interested in something extremely specific and adding that to my fish tank.  I realized that parameters fit, that I had the space, and I realized that it was something that could easily turn into a "breeding for profit" project.  My last one took 2 years to get a fry, and 3 to get enough to actually sell a batch, so let's all hope things work a bit smoother this time!

I am at a crossroads and without divulging too much I do want to poll those here and ask for some help.  I did make a "guidance please!" thread, but I want to, obscurely so, start a bit of a record and dive into what I really need some help deciding.  I'll keep things brief for now, obtuse, but I will eventually reveal what is going on, if that happens and when it makes sense to do so.

Hopefully you enjoy the journey and fingers crossed that everything works out in the end....

First question, Would you choose quantity or quality?  The choice I have right now is to decide to get less species in the tank of the one in question, or do I go with a less reliable, lower quality source, but I have better overall genetics?  Do I order from both and mix the strains? (visually they do look like extremely different quality.  One of them I would call an A++ genetic strain and the other appears to be a D- at best.... not remotely close.

Lastly, would you follow the common guidance from others around you, or would you trust your own skill and technique moreso?  Do I trust that I truly have experience with this species and understand what they need to thrive.... or do I follow the warnings from friends who may have cautioned a very, very different approach?  Should I risk it, or is the risk simply that I don't do what I think is best?  Again, this really ties into the first choice. Losing 1 or 2 when you buy in 5-6 is very different than losing that qty when you purchase 10-20 of a species.

Decisions Decisions.....

As for a clue as to what this is, It involved my Mopani tank. Grace the Shark, and hopefully a secondary breeding project that is far less work to accomplish some results.

Edited March 8, 2023 by nabokovfan87
Updated title

[Guppysnail]

Quality. Always quality. If they are high health quality genetics they will produce more and they will be high quality. It’s just what fish do. 
Low quality potentially leads to more culls and more generations to get quality. 
If you are entertaining making a profit quality counts. 
I trust both my instinct from experience and heed cautions and use insight from others. I will never learn and experience everything about a particular fish so more info is better. 
Trust your skill, try something different than common practice within reason but have a backup plan if it does not work. 
Good luck. 
 

Want to add if they look low quality it is often due to lesser quality care not just genetics. I’ve rescued what looked like low quality fish before that once they were really healthy turned out to be AAA+++ quality fish. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Guppysnail

[Theplatymaster]

The suspense is killing me! What is this project? A wooden robot RTBS? As for your questions, i just listen to myself. There are things ive heard for breeding my cories ex. Cooler Water Changes, Live Foods, and none of those actually worked. Now my cories just breed weekly no matter what i do.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Theplatymaster

[Odd Duck]

Quality every time on nearly everything.  There are a few instances where quality isn’t such a big deal in products, but never in animal genetics.  [Don’t get me started on those hot mess Frenchie that can’t breathe even before they get overheated!]

I think instincts are often a combination of learned information, experience, and keen observation.  It’s a combination of everything in you.  Like @Guppysnailsaid, trust your instincts but have a back up plan.

I can’t wait to see your reveal!

Edited January 10, 2023 by Odd Duck

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/10/2023 at 9:24 AM, Odd Duck said:

I think instincts are often a combination of learned information, experience, and keen observation.  It’s a combination of everything in you.  Like @Guppysnailsaid, trust your instincts but have a back up plan.

On 1/10/2023 at 6:23 AM, Theplatymaster said:

As for your questions, i just listen to myself. There are things ive heard for breeding my cories ex. Cooler Water Changes, Live Foods, and none of those actually worked. Now my cories just breed weekly no matter what i do.

On 1/10/2023 at 6:09 AM, Guppysnail said:

Trust your skill, try something different than common practice within reason but have a backup plan if it does not work. 

I emailed the seller and this is what they said when I had asked a pretty generic / broad question. I was fully expecting to get a response about how they have a full system and change more water than any home hobbyist reasonably could. Interestingly.... and this might highlight some issues others have had with acclimation.

We don't really do water changes per se. Because we ship the animals in the water from their holding tanks, we are constantly adding water to the tanks. The opinions on how much and how often in a home tank varies even with our staff. Each person seems to find a method that works for them.
 

Should be in stock during some period next week, so I'll keep an eye out there.  Hopefully get things going.

On 1/10/2023 at 6:23 AM, Theplatymaster said:

The suspense is killing me! What is this project? A wooden robot RTBS?

😂

I was looking at wood this week, might've found another piece for her.

[Theplatymaster]

Is the driftwood for a scape in your 75?

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/10/2023 at 1:29 PM, Theplatymaster said:

Is the driftwood for a scape in your 75?

Nope.  Not touching the 75 yet. 

[itsfoxtail]

My curiosity is so piqued I can hardly stand it. I'm dying.

Quality over quantity twenty times out of ten. Own experience over the experience of strangers eleven times out of ten. Always take the advice/info from others and keep it in your back pocket, but experience is definitely the most important currency in this hobby.

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/11/2023 at 6:09 PM, itsfoxtail said:

My curiosity is so piqued I can hardly stand it. I'm dying.

I am impatiently waiting too.  I might spend the day with a case of superglue working on my tanks.  I have 12 tubes, so hopefully that's "enough" after I pull and cut everything and we'll see how much I have. 

I have been dumping some into the Panda tank, but it's not attached anywhere.  I did clean off some of the anubias, so that needs to be cleaned and reattached as well.  Lots of prep work!

[AllFishNoBrakes]

Quality > Quantity. Every single time. Always. Quality always wins. When I first bred my Marbled Angels I wished it was some Pandas that I really wanted. The first time I bred my Albino Cory’s I wished i invested in a Cory species I truly was interested in. Quality over quantity for sure. 
 

Me personally, I don’t really learn until I’ve gotten my hands on it. I take what I’ve read and believe and try it out. From there, I adapt and evolve to what works best for me. Reading and hearing from others is a good baseline to start your journey on. 

[nabokovfan87]

Not the reveal, but this is Luigi. I believe it's a she, but Luigi has been with me for gosh probably 5+ years? It's been a while.

I've always felt bad because it's the one pleco that is almost always lowest on the totem pole but she would be the one that Grace would allow in her cave.

Meet Luigi 🙂

I added moss to the tank today in hopes to help out with more plant mass in this tank and just help to give some cover for fry.

Checking on the fish tonight I did see what looked like a panda fry.  It would be the first I've seen visually in the tank, but by the time I got the flashlight and the phone it darted and hasn't moved out of it's hide. The group of parents is protecting that section of the tank, Grace is doing her nightly laps and just being her goofy self. She's definitely wanting an Olympic size swimming pool if I let her have it. 😂

This is one of the pandas that is a lot smaller than the rest, there's a few, but as I mentioned I've never seen fry personally. Eggs a few times but never fry.

Today the tank is active, seems happy, and hopefully that's a good omen for everything going forward.

[FLFishChik]

On 1/10/2023 at 2:04 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I will start by saying that if you haven't seen travelers in netflix, please go ahead and bookmark that!

Secondly, let's take a nice long breath here and exhale slowly.....

For months now I have been interested in something extremely specific and adding that to my fish tank.  I realized that parameters fit, that I had the space, and I realized that it was something that could easily turn into a "breeding for profit" project.  My last one took 2 years to get a fry, and 3 to get enough to actually sell a batch, so let's all hope things work a bit smoother this time!

I am at a crossroads and without divulging too much I do want to poll those here and ask for some help.  I did make a "guidance please!" thread, but I want to, obscurely so, start a bit of a record and dive into what I really need some help deciding.  I'll keep things brief for now, obtuse, but I will eventually reveal what is going on, if that happens and when it makes sense to do so.

Hopefully you enjoy the journey and fingers crossed that everything works out in the end....

First question, Would you choose quantity or quality?  The choice I have right now is to decide to get less species in the tank of the one in question, or do I go with a less reliable, lower quality source, but I have better overall genetics?  Do I order from both and mix the strains? (visually they do look like extremely different quality.  One of them I would call an A++ genetic strain and the other appears to be a D- at best.... not remotely close.

Lastly, would you follow the common guidance from others around you, or would you trust your own skill and technique moreso?  Do I trust that I truly have experience with this species and understand what they need to thrive.... or do I follow the warnings from friends who may have cautioned a very, very different approach?  Should I risk it, or is the risk simply that I don't do what I think is best?  Again, this really ties into the first choice. Losing 1 or 2 when you buy in 5-6 is very different than losing that qty when you purchase 10-20 of a species.

Decisions Decisions.....

As for a clue as to what this is, It involved my Mopani tank. Grace the Shark, and hopefully a secondary breeding project that is far less work to accomplish some results.

1) Quality: because it almost always has an advantage over *quantity*. Better health, better breeding, better color, size etc.  if you are doing a specific breeding project, the higher the *quality*, the better your odds of healthy, more numerous offspring and in time, the *quantity* will take care of itself. Mixing could actually degrade your strain over time, so I would stay with high grade only. If you buy 5 or 6  quality specimens, you may lose 1 or 2, but you still have 4 or 5 high quality to breed. If you buy 20 low grade specimens, you may lose 5 or 10 and your still left with  mediocre stock. My choice would be to invest in the better, higher quality option.

2) while others trials and errors are a wealth of resource, your own are even more valuable. If it works, it works. Don’t fix what ain’t broken. If you’ve had overwhelming success with a system many times before, then go with that and tweak as you go. That being said, if this is a first for you and this particular species- then use the advice of friends and fellow hobbyists as you choose until you’ve found your own rhythm. What works for one doesn’t always work for another. Too many variables for it to be “cookie-cutter”.

just my opinion though, so take it with a grain of salt!

 

[nabokovfan87]

Just finished up the bit of research, ordered some stuff for the project.  New to me, never used it before, but hopefully it'll work for my needs.  It's green. 🙂 So that makes me happy.

I am still waiting for things to be available for purchase and then I can have a timeline for all the shenanigans and fun to start.  Water change day tomorrow, so I'll go ahead and edit this post with some water testing results and figure out what on earth to do in terms of prep. 

I checked when I was at the store, they had some wood, but not much of anything.  The 50% off sale picked a lot of the decor clean and it was slightly busy in the store this afternoon.

Impatiently, unhappily waiting for this stuff to show up so I can hit the button and order it and start to have some fun.

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:47 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Checking on the fish tonight I did see what looked like a panda fry. 

Found the little bandit. @Minanora They want to grow again! 😂 (Not joking when I said they are a hivemind at this point).  It's been 2 days of hectic rain here, hope you're getting through and doing ok with everything.

I tested both of my tanks today to get a view of what is going on.  I have both tanks with elevated phosphates from the craziness of the moss trim.  On this tank I have almost double the amount (5 ppm vs. 3 ppm)

I'll post results when I have them here for the sake of the project, but just keep in mind that BOTH of these tanks are the same size, same source, same method, same care, but with different substrate, plant load, and filtration.  One is a high demand, one is a low demand.  The purpose of this tank (and project) is to be low demand, easy, and without much fuss.  This is the tank I want to sit back and enjoy instead of get in there and do massive aquascaping on.

Panda Corydoras Tank (This Project)
Temp: 73:
Phosphate: 5.0 ppm
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm
PH: 6.5
KH: 60
GH: 150

Black Corydoras Tank:
Temp: 71.6
Phosphate: 3.0 ppm
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 5-15 ppm (Difficult to read!)
PH: 7.0
KH: 60
GH: 150

I can't really pin what's going on.  What really stands out to me is the phosphates.  I do think some of this algae thrives on added phosphates in the water.  It could be just feeding too much, which is fine.  I am going to cut back on the amount I feed given that the fry are a little bigger now and I did see some excess food.  I have fed frozen this week, but nothing too crazy.

The added phosphate could be from the wood, but it's not the type of thing where I have "more" in the one tank compared to the other.  We will have to see how things change over time.  Interesting stuff.

Edited January 19, 2023 by nabokovfan87
Added test results

[nabokovfan87]

Tank is crystal clear from the water change. (yay)

I woke up this morning contemplating how to explain my method here and what words make sense, what the parallel is.  My hope is that everything I am doing now carries over.  The order was supposed to be placed by now, things in the mail, but it looks like the seller isn't posting items right now.  Unfortunate, but it does mean a slight delay to everything and I'm at the mercy of things being listed for the time being.

I ordered everything I think I need so I will prep that and toss in photos when that arrives.  This will be a blackwater setup visually, I would think, but we shall see just how the tannins continue to form in this tank!  It currently is a "blackwater" setup, but there aren't any botanicals.  The color is just from the wood itself.  I do enjoy that aesthetic and it'll be a nice balance compared to my other tank that is dark tones and very bright greens.

For now, until then.... that's all I have.  🙂

[nabokovfan87]

Alright well... I think things are "mostly done" in terms of this one.  Waiting to place the order still, but for the most part I have what I need in place, it's here, and I can get it started the moment things arrive.  Alder cones have arrived and are soaking.  I'll need to add them in a batch, then add the second half following those water tests. 



I don't intend to rip on / put down the company in question for these, but let's just say I wasn't expecting what arrived.  I don't know why IALs and these things don't come in packs so we can use them in bigger tanks.  You're talking something like needed 250 per order just to feel like you have a "good amount" on hand.  Directions specify to swap these out every X weeks, sometimes it's 2 weeks, sometimes it's 2 months.  Ultimately you're not ever going to remove them, but that's just the state of directions and information I have.  All of the botanicals apart from wood are new to me.  It's what I would describe as a "budget blackwater" when you just drop in a lot of Mopani and call it a day. 

It's been a frustrating weekend and I'm sure that soured my reception of these, plus the delays on everything.  IF you have a store that sells botanicals be sure you take photos with a scale showing what on earth the size of things are.  If you pack something and it says "DO NOT CRUSH" on the package, it probably should say that on the mailing slip as well (thanks amazon for that).  If things shouldn't be crushed, bubble mailers, hard plastics, something to stop the action of an item being crushed (like a cardboard box) is probably a better option that a paper envelope.  And finally, PLEASE sell in bulk so prices can go down and it's manageable for something that isn't a nano tank.

Ultimately, a lot of us want to use these things and learn how to do so.  We're speaking different languages and the best I can describe it is trying to order tea in another language.  Yeah it's all good, it'll all end up good, it'll be a fun experience, but I do want to enjoy it!

(and understand what I am drinking at said tea shop)

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/10/2023 at 6:09 AM, Guppysnail said:

rust your skill, try something different than common practice within reason but have a backup plan if it does not work. 

THANKFULLY, this is in place now. I am relieved, but as before need to get at least one generation going.

[Guppysnail]

On 1/22/2023 at 9:05 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I don't know why IALs and these things don't come in packs so we can use them in bigger tanks.  You're talking something like needed 250 per order just to feel like you have a "good amount"

They do. The regular small packs of leaves are always laid out super flat and have no wrinkles and looks so pretty. But they sell the bulk packs for things like black water tanks. They’re just the ones that are may be folded in half or an edge is folded over and they aren’t absolutely perfect and and look ironed. 
They also sell the alder cones in bulk. I’ll attach a couple pictures for you. If you’re going with a black water tank, there is an entire list of things beyond the standard alder cones and Almond leaves that do fabulous for black water.

One of my favorites, because they look so wonderful is a dried lotus pod. My shrimp absolutely love the lotus pods. You get a beautiful rich color out of them and my fish. Love to play on them and if you have small fish like my pygmy Coreys, my celestial pearl Danios they like to play in a little holes.
Since you’re going with unique, I will message you with a girl who carries I think like 10 or 12 different dried aquarium items for black water and shrimp tanks. Your amanos would love some of the stuff she sells them for shrimp. But they’re not Bulk. 
@TeeJay do you remember what all was in that variety pack that I got off Jen at keystone clash for you?

Edited January 23, 2023 by Guppysnail

[TeeJay]

I'm not sure of the names of all the different little things that come in the variety pack. This is a stock picture from her website. I'll take a better pic of the stuff in mine when I get home tonight. Mine like to stay in the lotus pods as well. I had the first one in the tank for a month or more and it never sank. Very waterlogged tho lol. I didn't want to boil them to loose a lot of the beneficial elements.

Edited January 23, 2023 by TeeJay

[Ken Burke]

On 1/10/2023 at 1:04 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I will start by saying that if you haven't seen travelers in netflix, please go ahead and bookmark that!

Secondly, let's take a nice long breath here and exhale slowly.....

For months now I have been interested in something extremely specific and adding that to my fish tank.  I realized that parameters fit, that I had the space, and I realized that it was something that could easily turn into a "breeding for profit" project.  My last one took 2 years to get a fry, and 3 to get enough to actually sell a batch, so let's all hope things work a bit smoother this time!

I am at a crossroads and without divulging too much I do want to poll those here and ask for some help.  I did make a "guidance please!" thread, but I want to, obscurely so, start a bit of a record and dive into what I really need some help deciding.  I'll keep things brief for now, obtuse, but I will eventually reveal what is going on, if that happens and when it makes sense to do so.

Hopefully you enjoy the journey and fingers crossed that everything works out in the end....

First question, Would you choose quantity or quality?  The choice I have right now is to decide to get less species in the tank of the one in question, or do I go with a less reliable, lower quality source, but I have better overall genetics?  Do I order from both and mix the strains? (visually they do look like extremely different quality.  One of them I would call an A++ genetic strain and the other appears to be a D- at best.... not remotely close.

Lastly, would you follow the common guidance from others around you, or would you trust your own skill and technique moreso?  Do I trust that I truly have experience with this species and understand what they need to thrive.... or do I follow the warnings from friends who may have cautioned a very, very different approach?  Should I risk it, or is the risk simply that I don't do what I think is best?  Again, this really ties into the first choice. Losing 1 or 2 when you buy in 5-6 is very different than losing that qty when you purchase 10-20 of a species.

Decisions Decisions.....

As for a clue as to what this is, It involved my Mopani tank. Grace the Shark, and hopefully a secondary breeding project that is far less work to accomplish some results.

D- quality is a non-starter.  
if you were talking B+, then 10-20 might be better than 5 or 6 depending on price. 

 

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/23/2023 at 8:41 PM, Ken Burke said:

if you were talking B+, then 10-20 might be better than 5 or 6 depending on price. 

 Yeah, that's the dilemma.  Should be "good or great" quality, but it's one of those things where photos don't really do the item justice or make sense when you see what the species is labelled as vs. what you see elsewhere.  It's something we'll dive into when things kick off here.

[Ken Burke]

It it possible the pictures just suck, but the fish are actually nice?

[nabokovfan87]

Very likely @Ken Burke but genetically I can't say it's even the same thing.  Sort of like big box store vs. a specialty breeder.  In my rookie eye, it's a lower tier, but very well could be fine, reviews say it is "good".

[nabokovfan87]

"blackwater"?

This is what I see typically from the mopani alone with weekly WCs.  Trying to amp this up a little bit.

[Odd Duck]

Rooibos tea has a lovely smell (and taste and I don’t even like regular tea) plus adds some very nice color tannins.  I’ve not seen any harm from it, it seems to help, but I’ve not seen any studies for it like for IAL’s (which weren’t especially good studies anyway, honestly).