Pest Snail Population Control - an example of how multiple approaches is sometimes needed

[Cinnebuns]

I posted this in some Facebook groups as well but I'm going to make the post here more of a discussion rather than giving information. 

This is a 10 gallon ramshorn cull tank. It has not been fed in almost 2 months. There was originally some moss in there which is almost gone. It has been 100% blacked out for most of those 2 months with a blanket over it so I don't think much algae is growing. There is actually a few pretty large ones in there too!

 

We commonly say "reduce feedings and the population will work itself out!"  While this is 100% true its not 100% complete. There are other sources of food. This includes:  eggs (both their own and other species), algae, dead animals and plant matter, microorganisms, each other, and finally when they are desperate, live plants.

I think people get frustrated when the conversation is ended at "just reduce feedings" *facepalm* and doesn't include this information. They'll say things like "but I'm almost barely feeding much every 3 days!"  Their snail population doesn't decrease because the snails are eating other things. It still starts with reducing feedings and that will be the largest contribution. Some of the items on the list are greatly increased by over feeding like algae and microorganisms, but I feel people get hung up on that as the only solution when in some cases a person's tank needs more. 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Cinnebuns

[TheSwissAquarist]

My go-to solution is Assassin Snails, which work super well😅

[Cinnebuns]

On 1/5/2023 at 2:46 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

My go-to solution is Assassin Snails, which work super well😅

I'm taking more about how we discuss population management with people. Sometimes the comment of "just feed less" *facepalm* doesn't quite do it.  While assassin snails can act as population management, they are more often brought up as an option for elimination. 

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 1/5/2023 at 10:12 AM, Cinnebuns said:

population management with people.

Chinas one-child-law did limit population growth, but undermined the evolution of our species as it made parents put “all their eggs in 1 basket”. Also a tad inhumane and explains the 10:9 male/female ratio there. 
What’s your opinion?

Edited January 5, 2023 by TheSwissAquarist

[Scapexghost]

Really its about finding balance. Cutting food or light entirely is causing more imbalance. I think of an island full of coyotes, deer, and bunnies. If the coyotes are wiped out, the bunnies will multiply and out compete the deer. Without deer or coyotes, the bunny population will explode and they'll eat all the vegetation. Without vegetation, the bunnies will die off. Basically, changing one thing in an evironment causes a cascade effect with unpredictable results. Generally, the most adaptable, in this case the snails, will benefit.

[TOtrees]

I like this convo. 🙂

My 2c, if I can add it, is that we should steer away from the myth of the silver bullet, ie the idea that a single action or change will fix some problem. Like feed less to remove/reduce snails. Or assassins will fix the problem. Conversations around algae are often similar, ie there are loads of opinions saying do this one thing to fix the problem. 

Balance is also a key part of this conversation. But balance is rarely simply between two elements, it might be many (many) more. Ie it's not a teeter-totter between two factors, but a table top balanced on the point of a pyramid. It can tip in any direction, and there are an infinite number of ways to place/move your weights to keep it level. 

There is a principle in landscape pest control called IPM or Integrated Pest Management. It espouses the use of multiple tactics to combat a pest population. Generally, you don't start with the nuclear option, either. 

Another relevant principle is from ecology, that of top-down and bottom-up population control. A population is limited (or enhanced) by the availability and quality of their food, but it's also affected by the presence/absence of predators. 

In the snail tank example, cutting back food AND adding assassins represents an integrated approach to controlling the pest or cull snail population from the bottom and top of their food web. Manual removal via traps can also be added. 

Returning to the silver bullet that started my spiel, in a thread like this, we often think of it like here's a question, and now 8 different replies offer 8 different opinions, and you can choose one of them to fix the problem. But in reality you might need to deploy more than one, and not aim to eliminate the problem, but manage it. Repeatedly. Over time. 

Thanks @Cinnebuns for sharing the specific example that started the conversation. I've kept a snail-only tank before, with maybe a few hundred (like north of 300) med+large ramshorns in a 10 gal, with a few dozen adult assassins. It was stuffed with guppy grass and had aragonite for substrate. I added dr turtle blocks maybe every 1-2 weeks. 50% water change about every 2 days, fed like 3-4 algae wafers daily. Over time, the substrate got deeper and deeper with snail shells, which I would periodically remove. Even though it was only 6-12 months old, "old tank syndrome" set in heavily. All the available calcium was consumed, kh crashed to zero, ph dropped to like 6 (around 7.5 out of the tap). I was able to keep everything alive, but the quality of the snails coming out of the tank was low (shells pitted and eroded) so I couldn't sell them. And any attempt to connect with puffer owners didn't move enough snails to make a dent, much less a sustainable one. I ended up tearing it down because it was all effort and no gain/enjoyment. And that allowed me to enjoy the fish room overall just a bit more, and spend time on things that did give back. 

I will end with this. I learned a lot from that tank. What high bioload really looks like; how to recognize ph crashing in a tank; how to live with old tank syndrome; and ultimately how to be (more) comfortable with humanely dispatching snails earlier, so that I don't end up with a problem tank full of snails, and a lot of maintenance time required. 

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 1/5/2023 at 1:50 PM, TOtrees said:

In the snail tank example, cutting back food AND adding assassins represents an integrated approach to controlling the pest or cull snail population from the bottom and top of their food web. Manual removal via traps can also be added.

So basically instead of using just 1 proposed solution at a time use several? 

Edited January 5, 2023 by TheSwissAquarist

[Cinnebuns]

On 1/5/2023 at 6:50 AM, TOtrees said:

is that we should steer away from the myth of the silver bullet, ie the idea that a single action or change will fix some problem.

100% agree and that was kinda my point in making this post. It seems that people either go to "get an assassin snail" or "just limit feedings" and I'm showing that neither is the full picture. For some people, it absolutely may be the only action needed but that's not everyone. If you are going the population managent route vs elimination then limiting feeding may not be enough. 

 

On 1/5/2023 at 6:50 AM, TOtrees said:

now 8 different replies offer 8 different opinions, and you can choose one of them to fix the problem. But in reality you might need to deploy more than one, and not aim to eliminate the problem, but manage it. Repeatedly. Over time. 

Yeah exactly!  I think the response to people who ask the question needs to be steered more towards a list of possible solutions to try, and inform them they many need to try multiple, rather than "get an assassin snail" or "reduce feedings."  I tend to do that with a lot of things in this hobby tbh. Say "heres what can work. Pick what works best for you."  In general tho I think this topic more.often requires more than 1 solution than others. As that tank shows, reducing feedings alone doesn't always work. They are fine eating each other and eggs lol

On 1/5/2023 at 9:47 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

So basically instead of using just 1 proposed solution at a time use several? 

Yes. That's kinda the whole point of this tbh. The 2 most common solutions posed is assassin snail or reduce feedings. I've heard plenty of issues with assassin snails including 1.  Sometimes they don't eat enough and 2.  The assassins themselves eventually can become pests. And as I've shown in this tank, reducing feeding doesn't always work either. Using more than 1 solution isn't always required but I do think in this hobby we need to pose more than one solution to people more often. 

[Expectorating_Aubergine]

I just put a piece of bell pepper in there and pull it out when it's covered (next day). Rinse and repeat.

[Cinnebuns]

On 1/11/2023 at 1:19 PM, Expectorating_Aubergine said:

I just put a piece of bell pepper in there and pull it out when it's covered (next day). Rinse and repeat.

The point of the post isn't to discuss how to eliminate snails but how we talk to people about this, and tbh all issues as there is no one-size-fits-all solution and often you need to employ a few different methods to be fully successful. The video just demonstrates how "just reduce feeding" specifically isn't always the solution. Yes, it's a solution in many cases but not all if this tank can have this large of a population without being fed for 2 months. 

[Expectorating_Aubergine]

On 1/11/2023 at 10:01 PM, Cinnebuns said:

The point of the post isn't to discuss how to eliminate snails but how we talk to people about this, and tbh all issues as there is no one-size-fits-all solution and often you need to employ a few different methods to be fully successful. The video just demonstrates how "just reduce feeding" specifically isn't always the solution. Yes, it's a solution in many cases but not all if this tank can have this large of a population without being fed for 2 months. 

Ahhh, yeah I just saw the title and switched to auto pilot. It's a pretty common question with what appears to be a much more nuanced answer than "a piece of bell pepper", lol. I'll try to read a few posts in next time 👍.

[Cinnebuns]

On 1/12/2023 at 7:59 PM, Expectorating_Aubergine said:

Ahhh, yeah I just saw the title and switched to auto pilot. It's a pretty common question with what appears to be a much more nuanced answer than "a piece of bell pepper", lol. I'll try to read a few posts in next time 👍.

Tbh, that's my bad for the title. I should have made it better

[PineSong]

On 1/11/2023 at 2:19 PM, Expectorating_Aubergine said:

I just put a piece of bell pepper in there and pull it out when it's covered (next day). Rinse and repeat.

This solution doesn't work for folks who don't want to actively kill snails and who do not have a market for them once they are removed from the tank, either.

No criticism for those who do, but it's not an option for everyone and that's one reason why multiple strategies for reducing populations can be helpful. 

[Expectorating_Aubergine]

Woah, who said anything about killing? I toss them into my pond.

[JJenna]

On 1/5/2023 at 2:37 AM, Cinnebuns said:

people get hung up on that as the only solution

I appreciate you posting this soooo much Cinne! It's so hard finding a balance between feeding enough so the critters aren't eating my plants while keeping the pest snail population low.  Going to local club swap this weekend and hopefully will find some assassin snails to add to my arsenal. Going to start using RR on all my plants before they even go in the tank. 

[Up North]

Get pea puffers, they wiped my snails in no time.  I had a tank that was out of control with snails and within a week they ate them all.  Not sure the type of snail, small with a flat shell.  

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 1/27/2023 at 5:00 AM, Expectorating_Aubergine said:

Woah, who said anything about killing? I toss them into my pond.

I wish I had a pond to toss them into or a pea puffer to feed them to!

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 1/29/2023 at 12:54 PM, Up North said:

Not sure the type of snail, small with a flat shel

Rams horns? 

[JJenna]

I learned something new today...another line of defense against pests is making sure your hardscape cannot harbor snails. I took my 2 large dragon stone out of the tank to do some planting and rearranging. Covered the plants with wet paper towels and put them in a tub. When I was ready to put the big stone in, there were close to 50 pest snails in the tub.  

[Up North]

@TheSwissAquarist very small, never seen one larder than ¼" with very thin shell.  If I find one I will post a pic but I'm sure they are all puffer food by now

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 1/29/2023 at 6:27 PM, JJenna said:

I learned something new today...another line of defense against pests is making sure your hardscape cannot harbor snails. I took my 2 large dragon stone out of the tank to do some planting and rearranging. Covered the plants with wet paper towels and put them in a tub. When I was ready to put the big stone in, there were close to 50 pest snails in the tub.  

Try the Reverse Respiration treatment on the stones? 

[JJenna]

On 1/29/2023 at 12:53 PM, TheSwissAquarist said:

Try the Reverse Respiration treatment on the stones? 

I should have thought of that, will definitely put that into play when redecorating. R/O tank was full so I gave them a good flush out under pressure. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 1/29/2023 at 5:54 AM, Up North said:

Get pea puffers, they wiped my snails in no time.  I had a tank that was out of control with snails and within a week they ate them all.  Not sure the type of snail, small with a flat shell.  

Again. Idk why people think this post is me asking how you get rid of snails because it is not. I'm kinda frustrated people assume every post about ramshorn snails are asking advice on how to get rid of them and they don't even read the post. 

On 1/29/2023 at 5:54 AM, Up North said:

.  Not sure the type of snail, small with a flat shell.  

The flat ones are MINI ramshorns. 

[Cinnebuns]

Is there a way to just delete a post?  I'm getting frustrated now. The POINT of this post is that MULTIPLE approaches are needed not just "reduce feeding." I am NOT asking for help with my ramshorn snails. I have them under control just fine. For some reason people in this hobby see a pest snail post and just assume the person is asking for help with them regardless of what the post actually says. 

Is there someone I can tag to just delete this post?  I'm too frustrated now. The entire point of the post is completely lost and I'm sick of the notifications. 

@Streetwise you are a mod right?  Can you just delete this post please?  I'm sick of notifications trying to "help me with my snail problem" that completely miss the point. Maybe I didn't present it the best idk either way I'm done with it. 

[lefty o]

snails, like fish, and plants, everything in this hobby can be accomplished in a multitude of ways.