Why do we keep making this (fish keeping) so complicated?

[Ken Burke]

 

I’ve kept fish several time since I was a kid, back in the 70s.  Every time I’ve come back after life happened, things changed.  New filters, lights sub-straights, on and on.  Filters have evolved from simple UGF, and box filters into power filters (AKA HOB) to canisters. Lights went from simple incandescent to fluorescent, to LEDs controlled with your phone.  
 

Don’t get me wrong, seeing amazing aquaecapes is really cool, and all.  And in some areas the new tech has made fish keeping more accessible, but do you thing all the new gadgets are becoming a barrier into the hobby?
 

asking for a friend  

[StephenP2003]

In this hobby it's not the main draw for me, but I've got to admit I really like gadgets.  I have a tech background (building, selling, repairing PCs and other electronics, gaming and workstation focus), so I'm a sucker for shiny new toys that promise to be faster/better/smarter than yesterday's batch. But obviously they have to bring some value to the hobby, and preferably marketed correctly (like, fluval 3.0s aren't the only way to grow plants, but app-controlled lights are more than just a gimmick IMO).  There can be a lot of noise to cut through, like any other market, because a lot of "innovative" products are just new ways of presenting an old idea.

As for it being a barrier into the hobby? I don't think it is, at least not yet. The most prominent beginner guides/articles still stick to the tried-and-true basics, and your average beginner is grabbing an aquarium kit where the most high-tech thing is a row of white LEDs.

[Ken Burke]

@StephenP2003 I get what you are saying; the new light are amazing and really help with plant growth, but cost an arm and a leg, canister filters are great because you can pack all sorts of media in there, but how much filter do we really need.  We now have ammonium chloride and BB in a bottle to kickstart cycling tanks.  There are planted tanks, darted tanks, bare bottom tanks, species tanks, and on and on.  
 

All of this is great for the intermediate to advanced aquarists.  But time after time I read posts from newbies, both here and on Facebook, that are having problems from all the techie stuff, or additives more suitable for more the more advanced.

 

I write all this just to ask/discuss the fundamental question, “Are missing out on something by going big and complex over the simple elegant approach?”

[Ben Ellison]

The tech isn't required it's just mostly short cuts. Less water changes,overstocking, advance plants all become a reality with gadgets. However, almost everything we put in a tank isn't required. Heaters aren't needed if your room is steady temperature and in the proper range. Lights aren't required or even have to be anything fancy. Fake plants work just fine as do low tech lights. Filters allow u to keep more fish with upkeep. If ur into the work totally aren't a requirement to have a filter at all. The only thing required in the hobby is clean water.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Ben Ellison

[Marc]

This is probably my 6th time getting into the hobby and I think I've spent more this time than all the other times combined. Luckily I have a real job at this stage in my life, most of the other times I don't think I would have had the means to do what I am doing now. I never thought of running more than one or two tanks before this time. More info = more tanks I guess. Lots of set up costs, Spent almost nothing on the tanks themselves.

[DavidR]

I do have some canister filters, hi end lights, and fancy fert dosing on some of my aquariums. The vast majority are cheap dollar per gallon with matten filters though. I think I setup 3 of these tanks for less then $100 all in.

So yes, you can get all the fancy stuff. But once you cut through all of the BS, it is a cheap hobby to have a lot of fun with. I do agree you need to know what you're doing, or at least have some time to spend on YouTube to learn. If you go into a fish store with little understanding you are bound to walk out with far more then what is needed.

[Daniel]

One of the things I have learned from doing the 1930s Historically Accurate Planted aquarium is that a simple planted aquarium with no filters, heaters, airstones or lights works surprisingly well if you set it front of window in a warm house (and don't stock it too heavily).

The items that you really need or would be nice to have in order of importance are:

1. You really have to have a way to warm the tank in a cool house (unless you are keeping natives or goldfish or White Clouds or rice fish), and a modern aquarium heater is less expensive and more comfortable than living in a greenhouse. Note that if you have a bazillion aquariums though, it is better to heat the room.
2. Once you have a heater, it is nice to have an airstone and a pump to circulate the water. It is also good for the plants and the beneficial bacteria that live on the surface of the plant's leaves to have the water circulating, but you could live without this, unlike a heater.
3. Artificial lighting is nice to have because in the winter the days are short and if you want to look at the aquarium in the early morning or at night, you need artificial light. The plants grow just fine with sunlight only. But I want to look the aquarium when I want to, not just when the sun is up.

On the other hand, I have an aquarium stocked with monitoring gadgets that cost more than the used 2012 Suzuki SX3 automobile I just bought (admittedly I did get a good deal on the car).

So I guess it just depends on what you want.

Everything beyond the basics either does the job a little better or is fun to own or both. A sponge filter pretty much does the job of a canister filter (but you cannot switch media in a sponge filter) but canister filters can do specialized tasks and potentially handle bigger jobs. Plants do the same biological filtration as sponge filter but without the mechanical filtration you get with a sponge filter.

Tetra strips are way, way less expensive that electronic probes and such and the Tetra strip give results that pretty much/roughly agree with the presumably more accurate numbers from the probes. In fact the Tetra strips measure important parameters that like nitrate that are not usually measured by probes.

But the probes and the data you can collect with them are their on sort of joy (and can even automatically implement corrective algorithms if something goes awry) And if you like that sort of stuff, it is easily worth the expense.

I am sure some complications comes from not knowing what is really needed or why or maybe it just a personality type, but mostly I think we make the hobby as complicated as we desire or can afford.

[TheDukeAnumber1]

On 11/1/2020 at 10:58 PM, Ken Burke said:

And in some areas the new tech has made fish keeping more accessible, but do you thing all the new gadgets are becoming a barrier into the hobby?

No, you can have great success and fun without all the gadgets. The gadgets don't necessarily make like easier either.

[Daniel]

12 minutes ago, TheDukeAnumber1 said:

No, you can have great success and fun without all the gadgets. The gadgets don't necessarily make like easier either.

Agreed, in my house the aquarium with the least gadgets is definitely the easiest to maintain and at least as much fun as any other aquarium.

[varanidguy]

1 hour ago, TheDukeAnumber1 said:

No, you can have great success and fun without all the gadgets. The gadgets don't necessarily make like easier either.

This. The fancy schmancy stuff is all optional. Depends on how into it you really are.

If you want stunning plants of many colors in a photogenic aquascape, you're going to need some fancy stuff like powerful lighting, co2, and the things that come along with it.

If you want mostly green plants, that are still beautiful, with some other colors mixed in, and some fish to watch and feed...you can still use basic lights and a sponge filter.

It all boils down to your personal goals and what you actually like. The fancy things are absolutely unnecessary (even if they're stinkin rad).

[varanidguy]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

One of the things I have learned from doing the 1930s Historically Accurate Planted aquarium is that a simple planted aquarium with no filters, heaters, airstones or lights works surprisingly well if you set it front of window in a warm house (and don't stock it too heavily).

The items that you really need or would be nice to have in order of importance are:

1. You really have to have a way to warm the tank in a cool house (unless you are keeping natives or goldfish or White Clouds or rice fish), and a modern aquarium heater is less expensive and more comfortable than living in a greenhouse. Note that if you have a bazillion aquariums though, it is better to heat the room.
2. Once you have a heater, it is nice to have an airstone and a pump to circulate the water. It is also good for the plants and the beneficial bacteria that live on the surface of the plant's leaves to have the water circulating, but you could live without this, unlike a heater.
3. Artificial lighting is nice to have because in the winter the days are short and if you want to look at the aquarium in the early morning or at night, you need artificial light. The plants grow just fine with sunlight only. But I want to look the aquarium when I want to, not just when the sun is up.

On the other hand, I have an aquarium stocked with monitoring gadgets that cost more than the used 2012 Suzuki SX3 automobile I just bought (admittedly I did get a good deal on the car).

So I guess it just depends on what you want.

Everything beyond the basics either does the job a little better or is fun to own or both. A sponge filter pretty much does the job of a canister filter (but you cannot switch media in a sponge filter) but canister filters can do specialized tasks and potentially handle bigger jobs. Plants do the same biological filtration as sponge filter but without the mechanical filtration you get with a sponge filter.

Tetra strips are way, way less expensive that electronic probes and such and the Tetra strip give results that pretty much/roughly agree with the presumably more accurate numbers from the probes. In fact the Tetra strips measure important parameters that like nitrate that are not usually measured by probes.

But the probes and the data you can collect with them are their on sort of joy (and can even automatically implement corrective algorithms if something goes awry) And if you like that sort of stuff, it is easily worth the expense.

I am sure some complications comes from not knowing what is really needed or why or maybe it just a personality type, but mostly I think we make the hobby as complicated as we desire or can afford.

It also depends on where your interests lie.

 

I've been contemplating rolling my own micro nutrient recipe for a while now. I probably will once my current salts are used up (which is going to take a really long time lol). That will come with an auto-doser so I can dial in a small amount of nutrients being dosed anywhere from twice a week to daily, depending on the growth of the plants and coinciding algae.

 

Doing stuff like that really grabs my attention, moreso than the latest controller or wifi filter. However, the complete opposite could be true for others. "I'll just stick with whatever I can buy at the store, and invest in automation." is how a lot of people operate and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Then you have most aquarists..."How easy can I make this hobby?" and that's also perfectly fine.

[Daniel]

16 minutes ago, varanidguy said:

Then you have most aquarists..."How easy can I make this hobby?" and that's also perfectly fine.

Doh! I forgot about convenience! What is more valuable than our time?

If I could invent an automatic feeder that would reliably deliver frozen fish food cubes and this feeder could go for a week or two without reloading...I could retire from beekeeping!

[varanidguy]

2 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Doh! I forgot about convenience! What is more valuable than our time?

If I could invent an automatic feeder that would reliably deliver frozen fish food cubes and this feeder could go for a week or two without reloading...I could retire from beekeeping!

I'd definitely invest in something like that!

[Ken Burke]

1 hour ago, varanidguy said:

I'd definitely invest in something like that!

Ok.  I’d buy that too.  But I might not use it.  I really enjoy sitting in front of my big tank feeding a few red worms at a time.  Watching my angels, especially Mable, charge the little buggers is so fun.  You’d think she never eats when it’s frozen food day.

 

And you and @varanidguy are right. Expert, or advanced hobbyist need some of those gadget.  But for the entry level, it’s like walking into the dealership and buying a formula 1 race care.  🤪

 

 

 

[Travis]

To me it all goes in cycles. A lot of people build toward a crazy tech heavy setup and eventually come around to the simplest methods again. One of my other hobbies is paintball and this type of thing always makes me think of this cartoon.

[varanidguy]

17 minutes ago, Travis said:

To me it all goes in cycles. A lot of people build toward a crazy tech heavy setup and eventually come around to the simplest methods again. One of my other hobbies is paintball and this type of thing always makes me think of this cartoon.

lol That's the truth with a lot of things. With aquariums for me, it depends on what my goals are. In my 40 breeder, I like growing some more difficult or rare (albeit not to the extreme) plants, where even if co2 isn't wholly needed, it gives you that edge for success. Whereas in my 75, I want it to be very little maintenance, so it's more simplified.

Edited November 4, 2020 by varanidguy

[Nataku]

Just the other day on a discord group we were walking someone through setting up their co2 system and calibrating it for their set up.... only to learn they had no light on this tank! Talk about putting the carriage before the horse. 

But the poor guy just didn't  know. He wanted lots of great looking plants and growth. He was a new hobbyist and had heard that the best planted tanks had co2- so he went and got it. Totally missed that they also need light and ferts BEFORE you worry about co2. So yes, there certainly can be more gadgets than the beginner hobbyist knows what to do with. But you know, I'd like to think that's why so many aquarium communities exist. So we can help each other through the mountain of 'stuff' that we could buy for our tanks, and figure out what it is we really do and don't need and want. There's  as many different ways to keep an aquarium as there are aquarists out there. So we can all offer advice on what works for what we do, and what didn't work out so great.

[Lemon]

37 minutes ago, Nataku said:

Just the other day on a discord group we were walking someone through setting up their co2 system and calibrating it for their set up.... only to learn they had no light on this tank! Talk about putting the carriage before the horse. 

But the poor guy just didn't  know. He wanted lots of great looking plants and growth. He was a new hobbyist and had heard that the best planted tanks had co2- so he went and got it. Totally missed that they also need light and ferts BEFORE you worry about co2. So yes, there certainly can be more gadgets than the beginner hobbyist knows what to do with. But you know, I'd like to think that's why so many aquarium communities exist. So we can help each other through the mountain of 'stuff' that we could buy for our tanks, and figure out what it is we really do and don't need and want. There's  as many different ways to keep an aquarium as there are aquarists out there. So we can all offer advice on what works for what we do, and what didn't work out so great.

is there a discord server for aquariums?

[Nataku]

1 hour ago, quirkylemon103 said:

is there a discord server for aquariums?

Many in fact. 

Alas I don't reccomend any of them as thus far all the ones I have found contain some extremely hostile individuals, as well as advocate for many practices I don't approve of (ie yeah sure, put that oscar in a 20 gallon, it'll be fine! Add a betta while you're at it, because that's plenty of room for a betta too!)

I usually just lurk in their questions sections and provide advice when it pertains to a subject I am familiar with.  Look at pretty pictures when people post em. I would love to find an aquarium discord that had the same vibe as this forum.

 

Actually,  that's a thought.  @Cory are you familiar with discord? Would you ever consider a C.A.R.E discord?

[Alec2cool]

I use discord extensively and in my main server, we have a channel dedicated to some of our members that keep fish or keep jars like that Jartopia youtube channel. I would 100% back and support a C.A.R.E. discord and I think it could be a great way to bring in some of the younger folks who prefer discord over forums. Not only could we use text-based chat but we could also allow discord members to livestream their tanks either to show them off or to provide real-time video for whatever problem they need solved.

The problem is, we already have this forum up and running. If I was in Cory's position, even though I prefer discord, I wouldn't shove aside something I've already built for something I think is better because I've already built something for the same job. It's just wasteful.

[Cory]

I don’t see any benefit to a discord server to a forum. We have tested chat functions, I am familiar with discord as a gamer. 
 

There is a long list of reasons why I don’t want one. 

[Ken Burke]

7 hours ago, Nataku said:

Just the other day on a discord group we were walking someone through setting up their co2 system and calibrating it for their set up.... only to learn they had no light on this tank! Talk about putting the carriage before the horse. 

But the poor guy just didn't  know. He wanted lots of great looking plants and growth. He was a new hobbyist and had heard that the best planted tanks had co2- so he went and got it. Totally missed that they also need light and ferts BEFORE you worry about co2. So yes, there certainly can be more gadgets than the beginner hobbyist knows what to do with. But you know, I'd like to think that's why so many aquarium communities exist. So we can help each other through the mountain of 'stuff' that we could buy for our tanks, and figure out what it is we really do and don't need and want. There's  as many different ways to keep an aquarium as there are aquarists out there. So we can all offer advice on what works for what we do, and what didn't work out so great.

Thanks for the input.  It really illustrates what I’m talking about.  Aquarium communities definitely can help, but they are not all equal.  And it’s hard to build a forum to maintain the interest for intermediate and advanced fish keepers, that is helpful for the new blood.  After all, how many times have you given the same ol’ advance on the nitrogen cycle, algae, ich, etc.  After a while it start to get redundant. Stale.  Helping others succeed is really rewarding, but only takes you so far.

 

BTW, with a name like discord, not sure it is for me.....

[Andrew Geiger]

I guess its just like the rest of the world, more tech and more options available... in the 90's it was exciting to have a big ole box tv. Now you get these bright sleek, thin flat screens for a reasonable price.  The new tv's look way better, but the old style will still serve the same function.

[RovingGinger]

2 hours ago, Ken Burke said:

Thanks for the input.  It really illustrates what I’m talking about.  Aquarium communities definitely can help, but they are not all equal.  And it’s hard to build a forum to maintain the interest for intermediate and advanced fish keepers, that is helpful for the new blood.  After all, how many times have you given the same ol’ advance on the nitrogen cycle, algae, ich, etc.  After a while it start to get redundant. Stale.  Helping others succeed is really rewarding, but only takes you so far.

 

BTW, with a name like discord, not sure it is for me.....

I think some of us are downright nostalgic for a good old forum. With cool 2.0 things like reactions and embedded video and gifs that don’t crash your dial up 👵🏻
 

But there’s also just a ton of merit in having community wisdom in a more indexable way. Discord to my knowledge wouldn’t lead to the same discovery via search (Google, DuckDuckGo, Bing etc) for specific problems. 

[Maggie]

This makes me think of the commercial where you tell Alexa to fill your cup, which just so happens to be conveniently placed under the faucet, with 8 oz cold water. If only she could do water changes.