Jump to content

Cycling with and without quick start bacteria


Darax
 Share

Recommended Posts

On 12/28/2022 at 9:36 AM, Darax said:

Has anyone done a test to see if getting a tanks environment to breakdown ammonia to nitrate with archaea in a bottle works faster compared to without?

Someone gets me a few 10G's and I'll run it.  No big deal. 😂

I have had some experience with and without, starting up tanks.  My estimation and experience has been that without the bottle you're looking at 3-6 weeks to cycle something.  With the bottle you can do it in as little as 7-14 days.  No scientific notes, and a trial of one person's experiences, but it's about half the time.

Generally speaking, when I see a tank start to go "off" it's one the tools I use to get things back on track.  Especially when you start getting that bacterial snot mess.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well. Kinda?  Not very scientific but here's my story:

When I first got into this hobby a little over a year ago I fell into the trap many people fall into of misinformation. I was told "oh yeah just set the tank up for 24 hours and you will be fully ready for fish!"  We all know how that ends up. I was then doing a fish in cycle. 

The first night I saw them gasping for air at the surface. I actually did have a bottle of fluval cycle. I had already put in the recommended dosage. After a couple of hours I looked up online and it said you can't over dose it because it's just adding more bacteria so I added a 2nd dose. A couple of hours later they were still gasping so I put in a 3rd dose. A couple of hours later, still gasping, I poured in the whole bottle. A couple of hours after that they stopped gasping. 

Now, of course that didn't fully cycle my tank. I had more research to do. This is actually when I was shown an amazing article about the nitrogen cycle and how to do a fish in cycle. I don't remember why, but I also found myself with a bottle of stability and another bottle of fluval cycle. I started dosing the recommended dose of each every single day along with prime while checking my parameters daily. I completed the fish-in cycle in less than 3 weeks. 

Now, that's not scientific at all, but to me that's pretty compelling that the stuff helps and works. I know fish-in cycles take longer because you have the health of the fish to consider and that even fishless can take over a month. I was shocked at the time and I'm even more shocked how I got it done that fast. I do believe that double dosing bottled bacteria every day helped speed that up. 

Edited by Cinnebuns
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my limited experience with them (using the Tetra version available at Walmart) and Fritz Zyme 7, I think they're pretty good at starter colonies to get the ball rolling.  But the bacteria converting ammonia to nitrite or is it nitrite to nitrate?  Either way, one of those is slower to develop and the starters I have used are good at the fast one (like instantly, basically).  But overall don't terribly greatly decrease the time.  

I've also used Seachem Stability and did a fish-in cycle with my discus without issue.  But also changing 90% of the water every night, so not a lot of chance for things to build up to high concentrations.  I know it's not "acceptable" to say... but fish-in cycling with daily water changes isn't that big of a deal as long as you commit to it and follow through.  On a huge tank, it might be a pain.  But for your first 10 or 20 gallon tank, it doesn't take much effort or time at all to change 25-50% of the water daily for the first few weeks until things catch up.  There's a lot of factors in how long that takes, however, so you should still test daily to make track how things are going.  

I'm surprised there's not more "business" surrounding the sale of cycled media instead of bacterial starters.  But from a packaging standpoint that's probably a bit more difficult and less marketable.  

Edited by jwcarlson
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/29/2022 at 11:36 AM, jwcarlson said:

  But the bacteria converting ammonia to nitrite or is it nitrite to nitrate?  

My understanding is that it is both, but  different species of archaea for each conversion. You need the first to create the food (nitrite) to support the second. I suspect that what generally happens is the ammonia to nitrite archaea initially over reproduce and die back while they catch up with the fish waste that was building. Then to a lesser extent the same happens with the nitrite to nitrate archaea. This creates the haze in month old aquariums that eventually clears up. 

My data is limited, but the process seemed to take a few weeks using API quick start, and a few days using transplanted substrate and filter media from an established tank. I don't have the 'no quick start' data and wasn't consciously trying to measure. Maybe I'll do something, if I can find a place. 

Something like:

Ideally two tanks per experiment to ensure consistency. 

As small as plausible for the tank

Perhaps One frozen shrimp of a consistent weight for bioload, administered at some cadence

Daily measurement at consistent time of day with the master test kit and maybe the two types of aquarium co-op strips. 

Filter using an air stone and sponge? Maybe just the air stone, but we need consistent water movement. 

Measured amount of substrate. One experiment will be transplanted substrate. 

Aquarium Cycle race. 

 

Edited by Darax
Updating experiment procedure
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It wouldn't be tough to use 5 gallon buckets.  Frankly, you wouldn't even need a filter in the bucket, maybe just an airstone in each. 

I'd volunteer because I have a ton of them laying around, but frankly, I don't feel like doing the experiment. 😄  The testing required to do it right would take way too long for me to jump in.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/29/2022 at 2:12 PM, Darax said:

This creates the haze in month old aquariums that eventually clears up. 

That's bacteria dying? Idk that I ever knew that specifically. I kinda thought it was them reproducing more for some reason. 

 

On 12/29/2022 at 2:12 PM, Darax said:

Perhaps One frozen shrimp of a consistent weight for bioload, administered at some cadence

Why not bottled ammonia? Seems more controllable to me. 

On 1/2/2023 at 1:07 AM, Schuyler said:

This guy did a bunch of testing (including stuff like manure and garden soil). TL;DR most of the commercial ones did little to nothing to speed up the cycle.

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/2-8-bacteria-in-a-bottle/

Wow interesting ty. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/4/2023 at 12:41 PM, Cinnebuns said:

That's bacteria dying? Idk that I ever knew that specifically. I kinda thought it was them reproducing more for some reason. 

You are probably be right, archaea reproducing is the general concensus. My idea is based on how I envision it would work with macro life. This is way out of my area of expertise. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/4/2023 at 1:03 PM, Darax said:

You are probably be right, archaea reproducing is the general concensus. My idea is based on how I envision it would work with macro life. This is way out of my area of expertise. 

 

What is your area of expertise?

(I don't mean that in a negative way, just curious where your main area of knowledge is)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/4/2023 at 3:03 PM, Darax said:

You are probably be right, archaea reproducing is the general concensus. My idea is based on how I envision it would work with macro life. This is way out of my area of expertise. 

 

Good timing on this. I just read this comment on Facebook. I copy pasted it so I'm not paraphrasing. Idk, I feel kinda weird taking someone else's words but idk how best else to pass this along. 

 

TLDR. Bacteria bloom. Do nothing

As you are hopefully aware there are two types of bacteria in your tank. Ammonia to nitrite bacteria and nitrite to nitrate bacteria. Now it time to understand a third group which is in there. For simplicity reasons we'll call these your organic bacteria

As you are aware organic matter in your tank, fish poop, decaying food and plants etc turns into ammonia which feeds your cycle. It's your organic bacteria which actual turns these into ammonia.

These organic bacteria multiple very fast, every 15 to 20 minutes compared to your nitrifying bacteria which is every 15 hours.

If there is a sudden increase in organic waste within your tank your organic bacteria will go into a feeding / multiplying frenzie. The milky cloudy look you are seeing is actually your organic bacteria as they are infact quite large and water borne 

Things which can cause a bacteria bloom.

Over feeding.

Stiring up trapped waste in the substrate

Large water change with nutrient rich water

A cycle crash (dieing good bacteria)

And anything which increases organic waste.

Bacteria blooms are more frequent in new starts where the tank hasn't had time to mature.

To treat. Just leave it. The organic bacteria will deplete the organic  food source and die back naturally. If you water change and your water is nutrient rich all you are doing is feeding them which in turn causes them to remultiple. 

Things to note.

As there is an influx of organic waste coupled with a vast increase in your organic bacteria producing ammonia, your ammonia and nitrites may spike. Try and avoid water changes during this time and treat with prime.

The increase in your organic bacteria can deplete the oxygen levels within your water. If you have plenty of surface agitation or an airstone running this won't be a problem. If you don't consider increasing agitation levels.

As mentioned, it could be the bloom was caused by your cycle crashing. It's more likely it was not this but something else but its worth checking your cycle after the bloom has cleared that it's running ok

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/4/2023 at 10:13 PM, Schuyler said:

What is your area of expertise?

(I don't mean that in a negative way, just curious where your main area of knowledge is)

Software development. 

On 1/5/2023 at 1:43 AM, Cinnebuns said:

Good timing on this. I just read this comment on Facebook. I copy pasted it so I'm not paraphrasing. Idk, I feel kinda weird taking someone else's words but idk how best else to pass this along. 

I've read and watched similar. It would be wisest to defer to that. While my reasoning is different, my reaction is the same: not much you can do about the new tank haze. That being said, I am fairly sure 'bacteria' is pedantically incorrect. These are somewhat different lifeforms called archaea that are peers to bacteria in the tree of life.  This understanding is still developing. To bring it back to the topic of efficacy of archaea in a bottle, one wonders how the right stuff gets in that bottle when even the bleeding edge of biology doesn't quite know what they are? 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/5/2023 at 11:04 AM, Darax said:

To bring it back to the topic of efficacy of archaea in a bottle, one wonders how the right stuff gets in that bottle when even the bleeding edge of biology doesn't quite know what they are? 

My belief or mis belief in bottled bacteria keeps going back and forth. Right now I'm on the side of it doesn't work yet I have 2 bottles right now so it doesn't hurt to use what I already have.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

I've cycled multiple sterile tanks in less than 48hr using BioSpira with controlled additions of ammonia at 1ppm. It absolutely does work, but brand, bottle age, and how it's been packaged/stored plays a big roll. Can't blame the product if it's been in the back of a UPS van, roasting away in the summer heat for 5 days before arriving at your door.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 11 months later...
On 1/5/2023 at 1:43 PM, Cinnebuns said:

Good timing on this. I just read this comment on Facebook. I copy pasted it so I'm not paraphrasing. Idk, I feel kinda weird taking someone else's words but idk how best else to pass this along. 

 

TLDR. Bacteria bloom. Do nothing

As you are hopefully aware there are two types of bacteria in your tank. Ammonia to nitrite bacteria and nitrite to nitrate bacteria. Now it time to understand a third group which is in there. For simplicity reasons we'll call these your organic bacteria

As you are aware organic matter in your tank, fish poop, decaying food and plants etc turns into ammonia which feeds your cycle. It's your organic bacteria which actual turns these into ammonia.

These organic bacteria multiple very fast, every 15 to 20 minutes compared to your nitrifying bacteria which is every 15 hours.

If there is a sudden increase in organic waste within your tank your organic bacteria will go into a feeding / multiplying frenzie. The milky cloudy look you are seeing is actually your organic bacteria as they are infact quite large and water borne 

Things which can cause a bacteria bloom.

Over feeding.

Stiring up trapped waste in the substrate

Large water change with nutrient rich water

A cycle crash (dieing good bacteria)

And anything which increases organic waste.

Bacteria blooms are more frequent in new starts where the tank hasn't had time to mature.

To treat. Just leave it. The organic bacteria will deplete the organic  food source and die back naturally. If you water change and your water is nutrient rich all you are doing is feeding them which in turn causes them to remultiple. 

Things to note.

As there is an influx of organic waste coupled with a vast increase in your organic bacteria producing ammonia, your ammonia and nitrites may spike. Try and avoid water changes during this time and treat with prime.

The increase in your organic bacteria can deplete the oxygen levels within your water. If you have plenty of surface agitation or an airstone running this won't be a problem. If you don't consider increasing agitation levels.

As mentioned, it could be the bloom was caused by your cycle crashing. It's more likely it was not this but something else but its worth checking your cycle after the bloom has cleared that it's running ok

I have bacterial bloom for almost 2 months now in both of my 2 tanks. 

It was already crystal clear after the first bacterial bloom, then when I went overboard cleaning it went into bacterial bloom again that has now lasted for 2 months already. 

Now I understand the part not to replace with new water as it will introduce new minerals for the heterotroph bacteria to eat and to populate. 

But can I add more water to top off the water that evaporates over time? Because I'm using hang-on back filter and the water evaporates rather quickly and the filter makes loud noises and my tank is in my room also (im living in an apartment in a city) and I would want to top off water to make the hang on back filter less noisy. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/2/2023 at 1:07 AM, Schuyler said:

This guy did a bunch of testing (including stuff like manure and garden soil). TL;DR most of the commercial ones did little to nothing to speed up the cycle.

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/2-8-bacteria-in-a-bottle/

I'm not saying this isn't correct.  But I've used a few of these products and most of them are showing measurable nitrites after 24 hours or less.  I'd like to see his raw data, honestly.  I've seen a lot of stuff from that guys' website that seems to fly in the face of a ton of my own observations.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/2/2024 at 7:46 AM, jwcarlson said:

I'm not saying this isn't correct.  But I've used a few of these products and most of them are showing measurable nitrites after 24 hours or less.  I'd like to see his raw data, honestly.  I've seen a lot of stuff from that guys' website that seems to fly in the face of a ton of my own observations.

Yeah my opinion of that guy's information has changed over the last year. He seems to have pretty extreme views.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/2/2024 at 9:51 AM, Schuyler said:

Yeah my opinion of that guy's information has changed over the last year. He seems to have pretty extreme views.

Haha, I didn't see this was from last year or I wouldn't have said anything!  Sorry!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/28/2022 at 6:36 PM, Darax said:

anyone done a test to see if getting a tanks environment to breakdown ammonia to nitrate with archaea in a bottle works faster compared to without?

Not a controlled test but:

One tank was 20G (low tech) all sterile, only plants had bacteria/snaileggs on them. Took 30-35 days.

My 40G (high tech) I used bottled bacteria and dirt from the 20G's filter.It was done in 3 days.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/15/2024 at 8:48 AM, Daan C said:

Not a controlled test but:

One tank was 20G (low tech) all sterile, only plants had bacteria/snaileggs on them. Took 30-35 days.

My 40G (high tech) I used bottled bacteria and dirt from the 20G's filter.It was done in 3 days.

Unfortunately I think the dirt from the 20 gallon tank's filter is a confounding variable. But more data are always welcome!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/17/2024 at 6:50 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Unfortunately I think the dirt from the 20 gallon tank's filter is a confounding variable. But more data are always welcome!

I think you're right, could have probably sprayed a can of compressed air into it and got the same cycle time. 😄

In my experience if you squeeze a filter sponge that hasn't been squeezed for awhile into a new aquarium and let the new filter pick up all that mulm, it's basically cycled at that point.  Or close enough so that just normal maintenance gets you through the period where it's adjusting.  People seem to get really hung up on cycling this and that and I've just never seen all that big of an issue doing it with fish, even with high bioloads, if you're paying attention and doing maintenance. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My first 29 gallon tank I used Fritz Fishless fuel ammonia for dosing, live plants added in and bottles upon bottles of various brands of bacteria in a bottle dosing and redosing twice a week..

 

Going from memory I used 3 bottles of Fritz zyme, 3 bottles of stability, quick start, 2 bottles dr tims and another brand I forget the name of.  It took 2 months to get the tank to the point I could dose it with 2 ppm ammonia and get 0 Ammonia, 0 nitrites 24 hours after dosing.

I set up a quarantine tank in the basement with just a filter and heater and just dosed the ammonia.  No plants, no mystery bottles of miracle bacteria, no cross contamination from other tank.   It pretty much was cycled at the same time.

 

I set up a 20 high and added a mesh bag of Black Kow composted cow manure next to the filter intake and was cycled to same standard in 2 weeks…

 

not controlled testing by any means,but enough to convince me that I am never buying another bottle that claims to contain beneficial bacteria in it.

Those bottles can do nothing but save you some time at best, and do nothing worse than make your wallet lighter…

Gil Carlson, engineer at Bell and Gosset was fond of saying “A difference has to make a difference to be a worthwhile difference”.  My playing with the stuff did not convince me it makes enough of a difference to spend money on it… And I really did want to believe in it….

Edited by Pepere
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...