Looking for the best lights.

[BettaFishCO]

250 is the biggest. I think I'm going to make a platform to plant that sits halfway up in the tank. This way my light won't be wasted penetrating the full depth of water. It's for a sump planted tank to recycle and reuse water. High bio loads, high light intensity, high co2. I'm not worried about algae that much as long as the water stays clean. I'm pretty sure my plant load will take care of excess nutes though.

[Patrick_G]

On 12/23/2022 at 9:57 PM, BettaFishCO said:

It's for a sump planted tank to recycle and reuse water.

So basically a way to export Nitrate from other tanks, not an aquascape? 

[BettaFishCO]

Exactly, nothing for looks but the higher the growth rate the better. Ill have about 35-70 rams per 35 gallon tank on 24/7 changes from 2 250 gallon totes. I want to be able to plug in as many tanks to it as I can. Currently plan for 21 35g tanks for rams and again, their def going to be over stocked. If I can't keep the water perfect, Ill have to either add more totes (i can add an additional 1 for the rams) or shrink my ram population. So max 1500 gallons (half heavily planted) for 800-1600 rams depending on spawn. This is why i don't mind algae as long as its healthy.

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/23/2022 at 9:29 PM, BettaFishCO said:

@nabokovfan87 From what i saw they all look to be the same general type. If you can find info on one, i should be able to puzzle the rest of what they have. I'm about 8 year behind on led tech but I was on the cutting edge at the time. I would guess their cob but normally you would advertise that plus it looks like they have an extra component like a transformer or ballast. I couldn't find their type though. 

Well, it's non-technical and a ton of PR as opposed to engineering, but here's the rundown.

Something like fluval uses a beam design, while AI/Kessil use what I would call an LED array design.  This isn't some mind breaking breakthrough in technology, very old stuff, but it has it's own flaws and issues.  Let me compile a few things for your review and then feel free to ask if there's anything I potentially can help with.

From the Kessil PR dept:
https://kessil.com/about/technologies.php


From Pecktec showing his lights:

You can tell by the age of the video about the technology and difference between current and past products (they changed a connector and some of the board design).

Here is the breakdown from Aqua Illumination:

 

 

 

Spectrum Charts:
Fluval

Aqua Illumination
Note: you can see how this is MUCH MORE even spread.

Kessil


Design Comparison / LED Layout:
Preface: https://www.ledsupply.com/blog/led-optics-explained/

Aqua Illumination:
This is similar in design to the Kessil, it's a very tight array of LEDs, but I would call this a mix between the fluval and the Kessil design layouts.  You see the grid pattern and a spread of the LEDs in a specific pattern.  What is key here is that each led has it's own lens as opposed to one lens for the entire light array.  In terms of refraction, this is a more direct focus of each LED and in particular allows for each color spectrum to have different focal points on the lens.

Kessil:
There is a lot of time here designing the LED array lens.  This is something that is due the sheer size of the LEDs.  It's difficult to specify which is the "best approach" because you have 1 point of failure here as opposed to the above design where each LED is it's own point of failure (alignment tolerance, air gaps, etc.)  What I can say is that because this is a smaller package, the LEDs are smaller, they are guaranteed to be less powerful as a result.  Probably a lot more efficient, but the overall output would be more limited in range because it's trying to do so much in such a smaller footprint.  However, it is clear the Kessil has a lot more LEDs in it's array design compared to the AI. More on this at the end. 


Fluval:
Beam design here.  This is a lot cheaper (more forgiving) design because you do not have to have an array with ridiculous tolerances.  This is still an array of LEDs, but it's simply a much bigger array and with much bigger (cheaper) LEDs.  While you might have a precision instrument for the purpose of brain surgery, sometimes you don't need to use a scalpel to open up something when a pair of scissors works well enough.  So when I say "cheaper" I am specifically talking about the design in terms of engineering cost.  In terms of design, Tanks are rectangular (usually) and this design opts for a much easier spread as opposed to a very focused hotspot.  There is a hotspot, but it's going to be a rectangular shape across the length of a tank as opposed to a single, circular spot.  What this means is that as you play with the channels, as you adjust things, you can't control the light as well because that channel might be spread.  One nice way to improve this design is to use something like dimming arrays as used in the TV industry.  This would mean instead of just intensity, you could control the intensity of each channel across a grid.  (imagine the lightbar split into 4-8 section and each channel as has even array in each of those section.  Currently you're adjusting "red" but in a future iteration you might be adjusting "leftmost grid, red channel" of light.

Secondly, LEDs are spread apart, so passive cooling only here.  the others will have a heatsink and fan on the board to cool the hotspot of the LED array, this one might have a heatsink, but there isn't a fan and there isn't going to be any noise from these lights.

BRS Testing Data (saltwater) for mounting height.  Leftmost square is apple to apple in terms of height and spread measurements.
Aqua Illumination Prime 16:


Kessil A360X

[Patrick_G]

I’ve read a study on waste water plants that said Hornwort was tops for using Nitrate. It’s fast growing and doesn’t need high par light. There’s an old thread on the subject if you feel like searching. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/23/2022 at 9:02 PM, BettaFishCO said:

Do you by chance know if those kissils are a new kind of led? They look like cobs but there is more to them.

I was looking at some other things, but the equivalence here is not really connection (I am curious why you ask!), but also design package and the lens itself.  I don't think the Fluvals really have a lens, while the others have reflectors and lenses.

Kessil looks to be COBs (I believe) while the fluval / AI looks to be SMD designs.  Both of them are basically equivalent, it's more about efficiency and size as opposed to anything else.

https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/the-basics-of-chip-on-board-cob-leds

https://www.solarlightsmanufacturer.com/cob-led-smd-led/

Quote

COB chips typically have 9 or more diodes. COB chips also only have 1 circuit and 2 contacts, regardless of the number of the diodes. This simple circuit design is the reason for the panel-like appearance of COB LED light (SMD light, on the other hand, appears like a collection of smaller lights).

But unlike SMD, COB LED lights can’t be used to create colour changing bulbs or lights. This is because there are only 2 contacts and 1 circuit. Multiple channels for adjustment are required to create the colour changing effect. Because of this, COB LED lights are efficient in single-color applications, but not in more versatile technology.

Edit: Here is what I found as far as the engineering design of the AI lights, I'm going to assume it's similar in scope to this product:
https://media.osram.info/media/img/osram-dam-7411798//LED_Engin_productliterature_custom_LuxiGen_emitters_rev2.pdf

The Kessil definitely looks like a custom COB design they are using, but it also is a variety of LEDs.  Having the adjustability means it cannot be a COB design, as mentioned above.  They have a wide range of products for various industries that all use this same design.

On 12/23/2022 at 10:25 PM, Patrick_G said:

I’ve read a study on waste water plants that said Hornwort was tops for using Nitrate. It’s fast growing and doesn’t need high par light. There’s an old thread on the subject if you feel like searching. 

Goliad Farms would agree heavily.

Edited December 24, 2022 by nabokovfan87
added detail and technical info.

[BettaFishCO]

That a 360x is super narrow and those are crazy small diodes. So it looks like a cob design, but they have added maybe a smart controller of sorts? maybe to get more even power consumption between all leds making them last longer? I think the lenses are about the same as what i have on my black dog but it has 5w diodes where I wouldn't be surprised if that whole array is 25w or less. Well, the tech has def gotten more compact. Thanks for the info, this is that good good.

 

@Patrick_GThats great info.

I knew stemmed plants were the way to go but I've usually just mixed them. Ill def do a mono crop if it's the best water cleaner. I also wanted to do java moss and xmas moss so ill still do some research. I may line the walls with the mosses.

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/23/2022 at 10:45 PM, BettaFishCO said:

That a 360x is super narrow and those are crazy small diodes. So it looks like a cob design, but they have added maybe a smart controller of sorts? maybe to get more even power consumption between all leds making them last longer? I think the lenses are about the same as what i have on my black dog but it has 5w diodes where I wouldn't be surprised if that whole array is 25w or less. Well, the tech has def gotten more compact. Thanks for the info, this is that good good.

Kessil is 90 Watts, the AI is 55W, the fluval is ~32 watts (at this specific footprint)

I think kessil has a lot of custom sauce going on.  They have a patent or something on their little array and they tweak / copy paste it on various industries.  A more traditional COB design would be like this: (again, very similar to the kessil in design, but it is one type of LED)

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[BettaFishCO]

@nabokovfan87 Sweet. I'm usually not a huge fan of cob because of the heat distribution. Since space isn't an obstacle, I figure I wouldn't go for cobs.

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/23/2022 at 10:51 PM, BettaFishCO said:

@nabokovfan87 Sweet. I'm usually not a huge fan of cob because of the heat distribution. Since space isn't an obstacle, I figure I wouldn't go for cobs.

I think for your use case space is actually a challenge / design parameter.

[BettaFishCO]

Those are what im use to. the Kissil w360 comes with a detached metal box that hangs with it. This is what was confusing to me as I've never seen a led with a separate component. 

Why would you think space is an issue?

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/23/2022 at 10:53 PM, BettaFishCO said:

Why would you think space is an issue?

Finally found the terminology I was looking for.  LOL. (Falloff)

Basically you're talking about a short throw (I think you mentioned sumps) but you need a slightly decent angle to reach the edge of the tank.  You want a focused design so you get enough depth because it's a big tank.  The question is ultimately whether you move the plants up, floating even, whether you have a large spread or a focused beam.

I don't fully understand your layout / tank requirements, but just in terms of lighting and some of the posts in the thread I thought you were setting up a bigger tank for an aquaculture setup?

On 12/23/2022 at 12:25 PM, BettaFishCO said:

So I'm new to aquarium plants but I do have some that are supposed to turn pretty red with more light. IDK the strength of light any water plants require or if the par rating crosses over to aquatic plants since the water may change the wave lengths. I'm literally in the dark.

wavelength does matter in terms of refraction, but not as much as other things.  Air gaps, layers, lens / directionality of the light matter more than purely what wavelength.  The angle in and the angle out is basically the challenge here.  This is a really good resource if you want to learn the technical side. 

https://www.rp-photonics.com/refraction.html

Edited December 24, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[BettaFishCO]

I see what your saying,

I'm using 250gallon totes with the tops cut out. If I move the plants to mid-way its equivalent to an 18-inch-tall tank roughly so I think at that point, spread may be the most important. I can place probably 4 fluval sized light bars but i doubt ill need that many. I think to wide casts may do the trick. 

@nabokovfan87That digi key article is funny. In 2016 they said it was relatively new but i was using them around 8 years before that. They started all home made till they came our commercially and were way to expensive.

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/23/2022 at 11:05 PM, BettaFishCO said:

I'm using 250gallon totes with the tops cut out. If I move the plants to mid-way its equivalent to an 18-inch-tall tank roughly so I think at that point, spread may be the most important. I can place probably 4 fluval sized light bars but i doubt ill need that many. I think to wide casts may do the trick. 

Let me grab one of Cory's older videos.  What is the footprint you're working with?

Old design: Lighting the tote, not the room, basically.  The lights would be similar to how the wood is used here, two across should work for something like this because your LED beam angle is 120 degrees.


New design:  Lighting the room, not the tote, basically.

 

On 12/23/2022 at 11:05 PM, BettaFishCO said:

@nabokovfan87That digi key article is funny. In 2016 they said it was relatively new but i was using them around 8 years before that. They started all home made till they came our commercially and were way to expensive.

Exactly.  Single atom thick nano electronics exist as well as using layers of graphene to cool a car engine.  Not public yet, but it's technologically possible.

[Patrick_G]

On 12/23/2022 at 10:53 PM, BettaFishCO said:

Those are what im use to. the Kissil w360 comes with a detached metal box that hangs with it. This is what was confusing to me as I've never seen a led with a separate component. 

Why would you think space is an issue?

I have an A360we and the light itself is just one piece, but it does have a separate transformer on the cord. I think with the A360x you can get a separate control module but it’s not necessary. 

[BettaFishCO]

@nabokovfan87 Exactly like that. I'm thinking 2 lights across. My foot print is infinite as i can always upgrade spaces. Right now i have a living room with around 450 gallons and a single car garage which I'm going to fill the entire place up to the celling with. After measuring, I should be able to fit around 3400 gallons with room to tend to the tanks.

@Patrick_G Thanks Mr. G

I don't remember ever needing a transformer for old style cob lights, but it's been probably 10-12 years since I was looking into cob. That good stuff.

[Mmiller2001]

Are you talking about a refugium system?

[BettaFishCO]

@Mmiller2001No, its just a densely planted tank to clean the water. Its separated from the tank so some water can get cleaner while the fish tanks dirty, then swap the water.

[Patrick_G]

On 12/24/2022 at 7:29 PM, BettaFishCO said:

@Mmiller2001No, it’s just a densely planted tank to clean the water. It’s separated from the tank so some water can get cleaner while the fish tanks dirty, then swap the water.

So no continuous flow through the nitrogen export tank from your other tanks? 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Patrick_G

[Mmiller2001]

On 12/24/2022 at 8:29 PM, BettaFishCO said:

@Mmiller2001No, its just a densely planted tank to clean the water. Its separated from the tank so some water can get cleaner while the fish tanks dirty, then swap the water.

You will still have waste in the water and ever growing TDS. Plants don't consume everything.

[BettaFishCO]

@Patrick_GDepends on how it all works and what the numbers come out to. If I can get enough growth, it'll be constant. If it needs a little more time I'll start a second tank and rotate the water in it.

[BettaFishCO]

@Mmiller2001 I believe micro-organisms and plants do absorb practically everything (at least from the carbon associated with fish food). Besides the protein skimmers addition, what nutrients would you say would not be able to keep up?

I would say, most people dont plant heavily enough but how would you explain tanks without changes for 5+years?

I would do water changes every now and then, but I don't see how the ppm would raise as the plants grew out. Every aquarist ive talked to said you ussually do water changes to add tds to heavily planted aquariums, not get rid of it. Its my understanding that fish food turns to fish waste and that leads to micro-organisms and plant minerals and nutrients. When the micros grow, they absorb a lot of tds for exos and basic biological growth as well as the plants. I know in my shrimp tank (with fish) I have to add minerals to keep my ppms up. 

[nabokovfan87]

I honestly think you'd probably be better with pathos for this application.

[Mmiller2001]

On 12/24/2022 at 10:04 PM, BettaFishCO said:

Besides the protein skimmers addition

Didn't see this. Still doubt it would work. I think a continuous water change system is the better answer. I think you are over estimating the speed at witch plants can pull ammonia from the water, let alone other organics. Would a protein skimmer pull out necessary nutrients the plants need? Did a quick look into protein skimmers in freshwater aquariums. Looks like they need the foaming action which salt water can create. Basically, they are very expensive air stones.

 

On 12/24/2022 at 10:04 PM, BettaFishCO said:

how would you explain tanks without changes for 5+years?

A very slow process and luck.

 

On 12/24/2022 at 10:04 PM, BettaFishCO said:

I would do water changes every now and then, but I don't see how the ppm would raise as the plants grew out.

Plants poop, they don't utilize every waste component.

 

On 12/24/2022 at 10:04 PM, BettaFishCO said:

Every aquarist ive talked to said you ussually do water changes to add tds to heavily planted aquariums, not get rid of it.

You do water changes to remove unutilized soluble an insoluble organics and to control nutrient totals as well as replenish some nutrients via Ca, Mg,  carbonites/bicarbonates and traces. Depends on the source water.

 

On 12/24/2022 at 10:04 PM, BettaFishCO said:

Every aquarist ive talked to said

Can I see thier tanks?

 

On 12/24/2022 at 10:04 PM, BettaFishCO said:

Its my understanding that fish food turns to fish waste and that leads to micro-organisms and plant minerals and nutrients.

This takes time, and the fish load you are proposing is significant. Maybe I'm wrong, but a continuous water change system is still better (more efficient) for this purpose.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[BettaFishCO]

@Mmiller2001I Agree that the wait may be worse than continuous. The main reason i would do timed ones would be to process the most accurate parameter readings.

Ive never heard that plants give off waste, besides carbon dioxide and oxygen before. Do you have examples (if im understanding you correctly).

I agree my bio load is high, but I've already proven that plants and micros can utilize much more then given credit for in my 20 gallon (10 cardinal, 10 amono shrimp, 2 kuhlis, 2 gourami dwarfs, one 3.5 inch giant betta, and 6 chain loaches). I would feed daily, heavily, but was sure there wasn't excess food sitting in the tank (poo was fine as long as the micros and plants could utilize it fast enough as it broke down). My tds still went down with ammonia at zero and nitrates super low. I had to add ppm with shrimp minerals (for proper molting) and my ppms never grew, always went down without water changes. Mind you I was also adding additional carbon in the form of co2 aswell.

Luck is just a word used by people who can't calculate the variables. Totality of randomness doesn't exist.

If things consistently built up and couldnt be utilized by an eco ecosystem, there would be no water on earth that could sustain life without man made filters. There are hundreds of examples of eco tanks online and people also stating that if bio load isn't high enough, your tds will go down because microbes and plants utilize it. Heres just a few from a couple online sources. 

Home Of The Miracle Mud Method Filtration System | EcoSystem Aquarium

How do you start a tank ecosystem? | Exotic Fish Tank

(1) Do you need to do water changes in a planted aquarium? - Quora

If your ppm or tds and ammonia are not stable, then your tank is out of balance. Either you're putting more carbon in the tank than can be utilized or not enough. In either case (as long as it's not over stocked) your tank will balance out the rate of plant growth to the amount of carbon available (as long as there isn't any spike out of its healthy environment range). By adding (in my case) carbon in the form of fish food, I remove the excess carbon by cutting back and removing excess plant mater.

Heres another guy that does changeless tanks in is store front.

 

The rate is the only thing I'll need to dial in. Its hard to calculate a fishes bio load when they are just fry and always growing (using up ppm). In the 750 gallons that will hold fish, I may only have 100-200 that are "of selling size" at a time. The rest would probably not equal out to over 200-300 more adults. 500 rams in up to 1500 (750 purely planted, floaters on the the other 63 sqft 750 surface) gallons doesn't seem hard since I've already experimented with well over triple the stock load (inch per gallon, for small fish) and still had my ppms fall and never build.

I'm interested in your take on all this and if you see a flaw or if this info clarified. I also may have used tds in place of ppm but all in all i usually am referring to ppm. PPM and Nitro cycle is all I currently feel is worth paying attention too. I say if those check out, your ph is fine and fish and plants are growing happy, no need to analyze micros like I tended to do as a Phyto chemist. Even then, I could get the same outcome by just maintaining soil cultures without reading into the chemical composition all the time. 

The protein skimmer is a device that skims suds (broken protein chains) and removes them to reduce the bacterial bio load of the water. This is another problem i want to know if i have solved. Will the high amounts of bacteria utilizing unsolvable be a detriment in my grow out process. It wasn't for my 20 but then again, every square inch was planted with mature plants from the start (over 400$ to scape, crazy) to create the surface area along with 2.5 inch substrate depth. 

 

Its now 2023, thanks for reading. 😪