New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

On 12/12/2022 at 7:13 PM, RennjiDK said:

How important is flow in a planted tank?

It’s all in what you make of it and what fish you want to keep, how rooted your plants are, what the substrate is, etc. I personally don’t like a ton of flow as it’s harder for plants to root, and the only BBA I’ve ever experienced/still battle with is in higher flow areas around HOB’s. 
 

Some Rainbows love high flow. Same with Hillstream Loaches. Other long-finned fish/clumsy swimmers… not so much. Again, I would look into the things you want to keep and research where they come from and what they like.

Best of luck with your dive into the freshwater world ✌️

[gjcarew]

If you're just looking for a powerhouse light check out the Nilocg Prizm or the SBReefs Freshwater Pro. I think people do pay more for the appearance of a light in the FW world with really attractive lights that are going to be a part of the display, case in point might be the ONF Flat One. It's part of the whole ADA aesthetic where it's not just what's in the tank that matters, but the whole presentation. It also seems to me that you have a wider variety of colors you may want to highlight in FW, hence the adjustable RGB. 

[Mmiller2001]

On 12/12/2022 at 6:23 PM, RennjiDK said:

The difference between Chihiros $500 light and an Amazon Hygger planted tank light is that they've changed a few colored leds to create a different spectru

Hygger are using cheap white diodes to produce par, chihiros has no white diodes and produce white by individual RGB channels. Hygger is a set kelvin (maybe a new generation offers adjustments) chihiros can produce 3000k to 13000k with a flip of your thumb while producing significant par. This probably requires a better ballast, and probably a good chunk of cost. Also, heat management design should be factored. A 48 inch Hygger is 20 watts.a 48 inch Chihiros is 138 watts. And the Chihiros physical has more diodes. A quick glance at the new Pro version offers a 4th channel of white diodes. Pretty nice actually. ADA lights use 4 channels (I think).

Let's look at Kessil 360x, one for salt water, one for fresh. Same everything, one is just blue and one more red. Same price. Just different spectrum.

The Chihiros offering 33 watts isn't 500 dollars, the 570.00 option is 138 watts. And the 425.00 option is 110 watts. The 33 watts option is a bit over 200.00.

Other solid light options are Twinstar and One Flat One

Twinstar's high performance lights are great, but unfortunately use white diodes along with RGB. Any light using white diodes produces a yellow color cast.

Finnex also offers amazing par, true 660n reds but also uses white diodes to increase par and cast the yellow no contrast light. However, reds will look better.

Hygger spectrum

This spectrum always cast the yellow nonsense of cheap lights. Go look at high end light spectrum. Clearly, these are not the same or same amount of diodes in Hygger.

At the end of the day, what you are buying is what that light makes your planted tank look like. And what par that look is producing.

Chihiros is the entry level for that look and PAR.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Mmiller2001]

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/light-3pillars/the-best-led-for-planted-tanks

[RennjiDK]

On 12/13/2022 at 12:09 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

The Chihiros offering 33 watts isn't 500 dollars, the 570.00 option is 138 watts. And the 425.00 option is 110 watts. The 33 watts option is a bit over 200.00.

Ok, that's my fault. I thought that the description refreshed when selecting different models, but it does not. Only the price changes. 37w for around $200 is still a little underpowered imo but not at all outrageous.

On 12/13/2022 at 12:09 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

Let's look at Kessil 360x, one for salt water, one for fresh. Same everything, one is just blue and one more red. Same price. Just different spectrum.

That's because it's already a high quality single point of focus light, with around 90w and 250 par output. There's really nothing to improve on other than just changing the spectrum.

On 12/12/2022 at 11:55 PM, gjcarew said:

It also seems to me that you have a wider variety of colors you may want to highlight in FW

Show me a crypt that looks like this and then we'll have that discussion 😆

[Mmiller2001]

On 12/13/2022 at 9:16 AM, RennjiDK said:

Ok, that's my fault. I thought that the description refreshed when selecting different models, but it does not. Only the price changes. 37w for around $200 is still a little underpowered imo but not at all outrageous.

That's because it's already a high quality single point of focus light, with around 90w and 250 par output. There's really nothing to improve on other than just changing the spectrum.

Show me a crypt that looks like this and then we'll have that discussion 😆

Animals vs plants. Now that's going to spur a conversation 😆. 

This is why freshwater planted tanks are superior to salt water. It's up to the aquarist to mange and arrange colors. See what I did there 😁.

This guy does it well.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[gjcarew]

On 12/13/2022 at 8:16 AM, RennjiDK said:

Ok, that's my fault. I thought that the description refreshed when selecting different models, but it does not. Only the price changes. 37w for around $200 is still a little underpowered imo but not at all outrageous.

That's because it's already a high quality single point of focus light, with around 90w and 250 par output. There's really nothing to improve on other than just changing the spectrum.

Show me a crypt that looks like this and then we'll have that discussion 😆

This is the Ecotech Radion spectrum:

Compared to the Chihiros Vivid:

Highlighting greens and reds is a lot less of a requirement in a reef tank, just how super powerful blues and ultraviolet are pointless in a freshwater tank. They're just different. 

On principle, I try not to argue with people on the internet. I've made tanks like the one you want to try to emulate, which is why offered my $.02, but I'm not going to stick around if what you're looking for is a debate.

 

[RennjiDK]

On 12/13/2022 at 12:01 PM, gjcarew said:

This is the Ecotech Radion spectrum:

Compared to the Chihiros Vivid:

Highlighting greens and reds is a lot less of a requirement in a reef tank, just how super powerful blues and ultraviolet are pointless in a freshwater tank. They're just different. 

On principle, I try not to argue with people on the internet. I've made tanks like the one you want to try to emulate, which is why offered my $.02, but I'm not going to stick around if what you're looking for is a debate.

 

I don't think that anyone is debating that reef and planted tank lighting use different spectrums. I don't understand what led you to believe that this was my idea. All I said was that dollar for dollar, watt for watt, planted lights seem to be more expensive and lower quality compared to their reefing counterparts, except for the freshwater ones manufactured by reef lighting companies such as ecotech or kessil, where they are the same quality and priced the same.

[RennjiDK]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:45 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

Animals vs plants. Now that's going to spur a conversation 😆. 

This is why freshwater planted tanks are superior to salt water. It's up to the aquarist to mange and arrange colors. See what I did there 😁.

This guy does it well.

We've got more in common than you think. You still have to arrange the corals in much the same way. Tall sticks in the back, shorter plating and encrusting corals in the front. Tell me this doesn't look familiar.😉

Edited December 13, 2022 by RennjiDK

[RennjiDK]

Let me try this a different way. Here is the Chihiros spectrum.

The WRGB2 PRO30 is 37w and can cover a 17" tank effectively. It costs $230.

Here is my personal reef light. Because marine lights generally use high quality single point of focus led clusters, with much fewer, but much more powerful leds, I can overdrive the green and red channels to pretty much match the Chihiros. The same is not true vice-versa, because it is a bar style light with weak, low watt leds. 

When I do this, I'm making around 20w of power, which is not as much as the Chihiros 37w, but because it's a wide angle single focus light, I actually have more coverage at 24" effectively, though slightly less par. 

Don't forget that the light itself is actually 60w total and can also be used as intended, as a reef light.

This is what I mean when I say that planted lights are lacking in price to performance, compared to their marine counterparts. 

[Mmiller2001]

With not having to spend money on lights, channel all those funds to a topnotch aqua soil, hard scape materials and plants. Shot for a minimum of 70% planted as a starting point. 

[RennjiDK]

On 12/13/2022 at 2:57 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

With not having to spend money on lights, channel all those funds to a topnotch aqua soil, hard scape materials and plants. Shot for a minimum of 70% planted as a starting point. 

I'm still going to buy a light, lol. Is there much debate into ADA vs something like Stratum? Also, is there a soil that wont work its way up to the surface when capped with sand?

[Mmiller2001]

On 12/13/2022 at 1:01 PM, RennjiDK said:

I'm still going to buy a light, lol. Is there much debate into ADA vs something like Stratum? Also, is there a soil that wont work its way up to the surface when capped with sand?

I believe stratum is inert where ADA is packed with nutrients. There's upsides and downsides with using both. Price, longevity and dosing approach with each substrate.

Landen Aqua Soil is an excellent alternative to ADA. Definitely have a look at it. I think people have reported Stratum is a bit difficult to plant in. ADA has a pretty strong ammonia spike. ADA breaks down faster than Landen. Any inert substrate lasts the life of the tank. Dirted tanks can be messy. 

Pool filter sands are cheap and Caribsea has some nice options. 

You can also bag up aqua soils and cap with sand. Pretty much any capped Aqua soil will be mixed when planting and rearranging.

[Patrick_G]

On 12/13/2022 at 12:09 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

I believe stratum is inert where ADA is packed with nutrients.

Stratum isn’t inert, although I thought it was at one point, it’s just way less enriched than ADAs products. There’s a chart kicking around with some analysis of the various aquasoils. 

[Mmiller2001]

On 12/13/2022 at 2:26 PM, Patrick_G said:

Stratum isn’t inert, although I thought it was at one point, it’s just way less enriched than ADAs products. There’s a chart kicking around with some analysis of the various aquasoils. 

Good to know. Was I right about planting woes?

[Patrick_G]

On 12/13/2022 at 1:28 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Good to know. Was I right about planting woes?

It not too bad, but I’m not planting big sections of stem plants like you do. I think I probably buy it because it’s sometimes on sale unlike most aquasoils at my local shops. 

[RennjiDK]

On 12/13/2022 at 4:28 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Good to know. Was I right about planting woes?

I'm used stratum in the 5g and it was a nightmare for anything carpeting or with short roots. It doesnt "hold" very well, which is why I want to cap with sand.

[EVoyager31]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:16 PM, RennjiDK said:

Hello! I am new to this forum, but not to the Aquarium Co-op world. I've watched Cory's videos for years and even have a 5g planted betta tank. I am extremely knowledgeable about the SW world, but never managed to find success in FW plants, so I have a few questions. I plan on setting up a 36" 30g rimless AIO, and hopefully end up with something like the reference picture I've attached to this post.

LIGHTING: What is the correct par and spectrum for aquatic plants? I realize this maybe a loaded question as there are highlight and low light plants, but in general, what would be a happy middle ground for both. Can anyone recommend a light? Not a budget light, but a good quality one that fits the above spectrum and par with build quality behind it (believe me, you're not even going to come close to what a budget SW light costs).

CO2: Does this need to be injected directly into the display, or can it be diffused in the sump, behind the return pump? Again, an recommendations on a regulator/diffuser kit?

NUTRIENTS: What are good levels of macro nutrients to aim for? Is there anything I should monitor beyond NO3 and PO4? Which Micro nutrients do plants consume? Is there anything which is only replaced via WC, or would I be successful in just setting up a dosing pump with a product like Easy Green? Do WCs play any roll other than nutrient export in FW?

MICRO ALGAE: Here's where we have some overlap. What forms of algae control are available in the FW world? Is it just limited to nutrient management and Cuc? My 5g is overrun with pond snails and Amano Shrimp, but I still have algae growth despite near undetectable levels of NO3. I dose glutaraldehyde on occasion, but even that doesn't seem to make much of a difference. In SW, micro algae is a basically non-existent, as it's out competed by a diverse microbiome of bacteria, micro-crustations, and decorative micro-algaes like coralline. Not having an overrun algae farm is my number one concern with this build.

Welcome!

I don’t get much into super technical stuff.. I went with trial and error in my high tech planted tank but I wanted to make a couple recs based on my experience with c02 specifically. I I see some great responses here about the technical stuff though so by all means read through!

C02: I highly recommend the the C02 reactor GLA has— works beautifully to completely dissolve the c02 before it hits the tank. I’ve tried many in-line diffusers and was never happy with the results (lots of micro bubbles, plant growth and color not great). I pair this with a Fluval Plant 3.0 with very high light, Aquarium CoOp all in one ferts & root tabs. I have insane growth on my plants now that it is established and have to trim a TON every week to keep it under control.

Also: Aquarium Coop is releasing their own light soon as well, I’m certain it will be top notch and I will likely purchase to try it out!

 

Good luck with your build, be sure to share your progress with us! 🙂