New to the forum! Coming from salt and have a few questions about the planted world.

[RennjiDK]

Hello! I am new to this forum, but not to the Aquarium Co-op world. I've watched Cory's videos for years and even have a 5g planted betta tank. I am extremely knowledgeable about the SW world, but never managed to find success in FW plants, so I have a few questions. I plan on setting up a 36" 30g rimless AIO, and hopefully end up with something like the reference picture I've attached to this post.

LIGHTING: What is the correct par and spectrum for aquatic plants? I realize this maybe a loaded question as there are highlight and low light plants, but in general, what would be a happy middle ground for both. Can anyone recommend a light? Not a budget light, but a good quality one that fits the above spectrum and par with build quality behind it (believe me, you're not even going to come close to what a budget SW light costs).

CO2: Does this need to be injected directly into the display, or can it be diffused in the sump, behind the return pump? Again, an recommendations on a regulator/diffuser kit?

NUTRIENTS: What are good levels of macro nutrients to aim for? Is there anything I should monitor beyond NO3 and PO4? Which Micro nutrients do plants consume? Is there anything which is only replaced via WC, or would I be successful in just setting up a dosing pump with a product like Easy Green? Do WCs play any roll other than nutrient export in FW?

MICRO ALGAE: Here's where we have some overlap. What forms of algae control are available in the FW world? Is it just limited to nutrient management and Cuc? My 5g is overrun with pond snails and Amano Shrimp, but I still have algae growth despite near undetectable levels of NO3. I dose glutaraldehyde on occasion, but even that doesn't seem to make much of a difference. In SW, micro algae is a basically non-existent, as it's out competed by a diverse microbiome of bacteria, micro-crustations, and decorative micro-algaes like coralline. Not having an overrun algae farm is my number one concern with this build.

[gjcarew]

If you want to get in to the high-tech side of things, I highly recommend The 2 Hr Aquarist. You can find links to all your other questions at the bottom of that page. I would recommend sticking to that as a 'Source of Truth' so you don't get overwhelmed with conflicting internet advice. 

Lighting: Chihiros has recently gotten more popular, otherwise the Fluval 3.0 is one many people use around here. Both have apps that let you adjust light intensity. 
CO2: You can inject into the sump with a diffuser or reactor, I know of at least one guy who injects it directly into his return pump. I haven't tried it but the Aquarium Co-op regulator seems like a screaming deal.
Nutrients: This is a complicated one and unfortunately the answer is 'it depends.' If it's your first tank it's probably best to stick to an all-in-one fertilizer. Again, check out the 2 Hr Aquarist for more info on nutrient levels and CO2 in a high-tech planted tank.

Algae control largely consists of manipulating the above parameters to achieve the mythical 'balanced tank'.

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Zenzo
Removed link

[RennjiDK]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:42 PM, gjcarew said:

If you want to get in to the high-tech side of things, I highly recommend The 2 Hr Aquarist. Here's a link to his article on algae control. You can find links to all your other questions at the bottom of that page. I would recommend sticking to that as a 'Source of Truth' so you don't get overwhelmed with conflicting internet advice. 

Lighting: Chihiros has recently gotten more popular, otherwise the Fluval 3.0 is one many people use around here. Both have apps that let you adjust light intensity. 
CO2: You can inject into the sump with a diffuser or reactor, I know of at least one guy who injects it directly into his return pump. I haven't tried it but the Aquarium Co-op regulator seems like a screaming deal.
Nutrients: This is a complicated one and unfortunately the answer is 'it depends.' If it's your first tank it's probably best to stick to an all-in-one fertilizer. Again, check out the 2 Hr Aquarist for more info on nutrient levels and CO2 in a high-tech planted tank.

Algae control largely consists of manipulating the above parameters to achieve the mythical 'balanced tank'.

 

Thanks for the link! I was surprised to see a planted tank under such high par, especially a "low light plant" like buce.

[Mmiller2001]

Agree with everything gjcarew posted. However, coming from the salt word, lights matter. And so I can't recommend a fluval 3.0.. If you really want colors to pop, the Chihiros is the bottom end or entry point of top lighting options. They also have a Vivid model that's beautiful. 

If that doesn't matter to you, a fluval will work. But either way, around 70 par at the substrate will grow most carpets and keep them short.

I would research Estimative Index dosing, this method is beyond easy and eliminates any need to test. As such, dry salts are your best bet with EI dosing. All this information can be found at the link he provided.

GLA regulators are my choices. CO2art is a decent entry level regulator and have nice kits. I have no experience with Coop regulators, but if it functions, and is consistent, probably okay.

[Zenzo]

Welcome to the forum and the wonderful world of freshwater tanks and planted aquariums. I will try to answer some of your questions:

Lighting: We actually have a video on par coming out in a couple of weeks. Cory goes into to detail explaining about par and lights. As far as which light use, if you can wait...our new Aquarium Co-Op Day Plant LED lights will be landing at the warehouse very soon. Here is the product link to learn more: https://www.aquariumcoop.com/products/aquarium-co-op-easy-plant-led

CO2: It can diffused into the tank (most common), but it can also be diffused into a sump. I think that most prefer directly into the tank so as to mitigate co2 losses between the sump, return pump, and main display tank.

Nutrients: A combination of Easy Green and Easy Root Tabs would probably be the easiest way to get started with planted tank fertilizers. You can definetly go down the rabbit hole of testing for each element and dosing individually, but the "Easy" in Easy Green and Easy Root Tabs takes the guess work out...which is especially important for newer plant keepers. 

Micro Algae: We actually have a few videos on this (and we have another as part of a series that is coming out very soon). The Reader's Digest version is that it is a balance between lighting and nutrients.

 

[Patrick_G]

Lights: I’ll also recommend the Chihiros WRGB II Pro series as a great light. I consider it the entry point into high end lighting and it’s a giant killer. The 90cm model is under $500. 

Nutrients: There are a few good comprehensive fertilizers out there including Easy Green, and those might be the place to start. If you run into problems you can start mixing your own and use the Estimative Index method that @Mmiller2001 mentioned. 
 

Algae: New freshwater tanks sometimes have a diatom bloom but it’s not inevitable and it’s easy to remove. Keeping your lighting and nutrients in balance is the key and it’s more difficult in the beginning when your plant mass is low. It gets much easier as plant mass increases. Other algae like Black beard and staghorn can also be controlled by balancing lighting and nutrients. A good cleanup crew is  essential in my opinion. I like Otocinclus catfish, Amano shrimp and Nerite snails. We also have chemicals like Easy Carbon that can help knock back a stubborn infestation while you figure out the root cause of the problem. 
 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Patrick_G

[Patrick_G]

Thoughts on your 5 gallon betta tank:

In planted tank it’s usually a good idea to have a decent amount of NO3 since that’s the main macronutrient for your plants. Even though it seems counterintuitive it will actually help your plants grow faster and outcompete the algae. I see some Leaf Zone in the pic. I’m guessing you’re adding that because it’s NO3 free and that’s ok but a comprehensive fertilizer will work better. In this  tank I would try 6 hours of light at a medium intensity, dose with Easy Green until you hit about 20 ppm NO3 and add some fast growing plants. It should also be easy to remove the existing algae with a toothbrush. 

[RennjiDK]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:44 PM, Patrick_G said:

Thoughts on your 5 gallon betta tank:

In planted tank it’s usually a good idea to have a decent amount of NO3 since that’s the main macronutrient for your plants. Even though it seems counterintuitive it will actually help your plants grow faster and outcompete the algae. I see some Leaf Zone in the pic. I’m guessing you’re adding that because it’s NO3 free and that’s ok but a comprehensive fertilizer will work better. In this  tank I would try 6 hours of light at a medium intensity, dose with Easy Green until you hit about 20 ppm NO3 and add some fast growing plants. It should also be easy to remove the existing algae with a toothbrush. 

Thanks for the advice. I'm actually dosing easy green (the leaf zone is old), though no were near 20ppm. Substrate is Stratum and I added maybe 6 root tabs when I planted. I keep the lighting around 6 hours a day as my light is a cheap non-controllable amazon light (maybe hygger?). I'll bump up the NO3 and see if things improve.

[RennjiDK]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:26 PM, Patrick_G said:

Lights: I’ll also recommend the Chihiros WRGB II Pro series as a great light. I consider it the entry point into high end lighting and it’s a giant killer. The 90cm model is under $500. 
 

Algae: New freshwater tanks sometimes have a diatom bloom but it’s not inevitable and it’s easy to remove.

 

We also have chemicals like Easy Carbon that can help knock back a stubborn infestation while you figure out the root cause of the problem. 

Well it looks like a found a light since it keeps getting recommended

Diatoms are not really a concern of mine, being that they are usually limited to the finite amount of silica in the tank. I've never seen them last more than a couple weeks at most before starving off.

I already dose glutaraldehyde on occasion.

Edited December 12, 2022 by RennjiDK
Additional info

[Patrick_G]

On 12/12/2022 at 2:56 PM, RennjiDK said:

Thanks for the advice. I'm actually dosing easy green (the leaf zone is old), though no were near 20ppm. Substrate is Stratum and I added maybe 6 root tabs when I planted. I keep the lighting around 6 hours a day as my light is a cheap non-controllable amazon light (maybe hygger?). I'll bump up the NO3 and see if things improve.

The Leaf Zone is a good option when you need some extra potassium so keep it around. If you're still getting algae growth with 6 hours of light I would experiment with raising the light or maybe covering some of the LEDs with black electrical tape. Getting the light dialed in is going to be key with a lightly planted tank. 

 

[Jungle Fan]

I would generally agree to most of what was said by @Patrick_G, @Mmiller2001, @Zenzo, and @gjcarew but on the Chihiros I would differ, partially because I'm biased toward my Kessil A360X Tuna Suns which I'm running nowhere near capacity on my tank, and because I love their shimmer that looks more like sunlight, and partially because if you are going to spend that kind of money to get the most color out of your plants then you might as well get the Eco Tech Marine Radion XR15 G5 Freshwater LEDs from what I've read they are still a bit more powerful than the Chihiros, on the dual stage CO2 regulator I also run a Green Leaf Aquariums regulator and they provide the best warranty in the U.S. As for learning the correct needs and levels for plants I recommend the Aquarium Plant books by Christel Kasselmann, and membership in the Aquatic Gardeners Association of which, full disclosure and shameless plug, I am also a member.

https://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/

Edited December 13, 2022 by Jungle Fan
typo

[Mmiller2001]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:52 PM, Jungle Fan said:

I'm biased toward my Kessil A360X Tuna Suns

I'm going to have a good look at those for my next build.

[gjcarew]

On 12/12/2022 at 3:52 PM, Jungle Fan said:

I would generally agree to most of what was said by @Patrick_G, @Mmiller2001, @Zenzo, and @gjcarew but on the Chihiros I would differ, partially because I'm biased toward my Kessil A360X Tuna Suns which I'm running nowhere near capacity on my tank, and because I love their shimmer that looks more like sunlight, and partially because if you are going to spend that kind of money to get the most color out of your plants then you might as well get the Eco Tech Marine Radion XR15 G5 Freshwater LEDs from what I've read they are still a bit more powerful than the Chihiros, on the dual stage CO2 regulator I also run a Green Leaf Aquariums regulator and they provide the best warranty in the U.S. As for learning the correct needs and levels for plants I recommend the Aquarium Plant books by Christel Kasselmann, and membership in the Aquatic Gardeners Association of which, full disclosure and shameless plug, I am also a member.

https://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/

I would love to try the Tuna Suns but they are definitely on the expensive side of things. The point source lights are great, I have an ADA Solar One I'm excited to set up for the right project.

[RennjiDK]

I wasn't even aware that Kessil and Ecotech made FW lights. I'll have to look into them. One thing I am noticing though about FW is that your lights....suck. Now I have no idea about lighting requirements for aquatic plants, but I do know quite a good deal about led lights. Lighting is just spectrum and par, both of which are measurable. Beyond that, its just build quality and ease of use that you're paying for. Even the Chihiros lights seem to be the same low watt leds used in every other strip light. It's 33w at almost $500usd. Unless there is something glaringly obvious I'm missing, it seems like you're being charged a 70% mark up for features like app controlled programmability, which come standard on even the cheapest reef lights. Not to mention the fact that they are 2-3x the wattage, gooseneck mounted pucks, and half the cost.

[Patrick_G]

@Jungle Fan, I agree, the Kessils are spectacular. I was lucky enough to get a 360 tuna sun for $30 at a club auction. I’m on the lookout for another used one and I’ll use them on my 75. 
For the example tank posted I’d personally want a Chihiros for its excellent color rendition, but a Kessil would be a good option too.  

[Jungle Fan]

The big difference between Freshwater and Reef lights is the quality of light that makes the difference. For Freshwater plants  you need a lot more red and amber spectrum than in the general mix of harsh reef lights for coral, by the way on the AGA site you can find a slew of articles about the different types of lighting, and you can get as scientific as you like, there are some articles that go into dissertation level. 

[Patrick_G]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:19 PM, RennjiDK said:

Even the Chihiros lights seem to be the same low watt leds used in every other strip light. It's 33w at almost $500usd. Unless there is something glaringly obvious I'm missing, it seems like you're being charged a 70% mark up for features like app controlled programmability, which come standard on even the cheapest reef lights.

There are certainly a lot of inexpensive lights out there, and some very expensive ones too. For me is all about color rendering, the more expensive ones have spectrums that enhance the reds and greens.
With the 36” inch tank you actually have some good options in the higher end range, if you want something that’s of a higher build quality with great aesthetics. You could go for one UNS Titan, Chihiros Vivid or ADA Solar RGB. 

[Jungle Fan]

@Patrick_G I could see that the Kessils are not everyone's choice because of the shimmer that's why I mentioned the  Eco Tech Marine Radion XR15 G5 Freshwater LEDs that on several sites were listed as having a better color representation than the Chihiros without translating the whole German web site the lighting ranking by AquaOwner who used an objective test measurement scale shows the Chihiros as #21 ranking well behind the Eco Tech Marine on #1. My Kessils were on #3. One of these days I might actually translate the whole thing, but there are also several lights listed that aren't available in the U.S.

https://www.aquaowner.de/led-ranking/

Edited December 13, 2022 by Jungle Fan

[RennjiDK]

On 12/12/2022 at 7:34 PM, Jungle Fan said:

The big difference between Freshwater and Reef lights is the quality of light that makes the difference. For Freshwater plants  you need a lot more red and amber spectrum than in the general mix of harsh reef lights for coral, by the way on the AGA site you can find a slew of articles about the different types of lighting, and you can get as scientific as you like, there are some articles that go into dissertation level. 

That's far from the only difference. Yes It's a different spectrum, so you'll see lights like Kessil's tuna series, or Fluval's Planted/Marine lights in both FW and SW. They swap a few leds to make these spectrum changes. The real difference is in power (par) and price vs performance of what's being offered in the planted tank world. It's not uncommon for SW to have 400w+ above a tank, because SPS corals can require up to 700+ par. What I'm saying is that the top end of planted tank lights are just creating a more suitable spectrum, by changing a few leds, and charging a premium for it with no real increase in build costs or manufacturing.

[Patrick_G]

On 12/12/2022 at 4:50 PM, Jungle Fan said:

One of these days I might actually translate the whole thing, but there are also several lights listed that aren't available in the U.S.

Great article, google translated it for me. 

[Jungle Fan]

@RennjiDK Correct! However if you brought 700PAR to bear on freshwater plants you'd end up with a wonderful soup of green algae and tissue mush, would be nice if the modifications they make to the reef lights would bring the prices they charge down a bit, alas they are used to making a big buck of those who are willing to shell out $300 to $400 for some fish.

[RennjiDK]

On 12/12/2022 at 8:03 PM, Jungle Fan said:

@RennjiDK Correct! However if you brought 700PAR to bear on freshwater plants you'd end up with a wonderful soup of green algae and tissue mush, would be nice if the modifications they make to the reef lights would bring the prices they charge down a bit, alas they are used to making a big buck of those who are willing to shell out $300 to $400 for some fish.

I understand what you're saying, but you may not be understanding me correctly so I'll try to reword it a different way. The difference between Chihiros $500 light and an Amazon Hygger planted tank light is that they've changed a few colored leds to create a different spectrum and added an app. The led's are the same. The technology is the same. It didn't cost them much in production to do this, but its 20x the cost. It's not a SW vs FW comparison. I'm just saying that when you pay 20x the cost in SW lighting, you get 20x the performance. If a company were trying to sell a SW light at $500 in the reefing world, with the same performance as a hygger marine led from amazon, they'd be bankrupt tomorrow. As far as melting plants with reef lights, I think I could definitely grow plants with one, given the correct spectrum and par, because even our amazon budget lights are adjustable by default 😄. The limiting factor there would be par, since our lights are 80% blue leds, but I feel pretty confident I could make at least 50 with the correct spectrum.

Edited December 13, 2022 by RennjiDK

[AllFishNoBrakes]

I am by no means an expert, don’t have a par meter, and honestly don’t really care. 11 of my 13 tanks run AquaNeat lights from Amazon and grow everything I want them to. My first tank ever uses the stock lame-o white LED’s and a submersible bar and it grows Java Moss better than anything else I’ve tried. My Walstad cube has a Fluval Nano Plant light and crushes. Some of my tanks run C02. Some tanks have multiple filters. 1 tank has absolutely no filter or air stone. Whatever you want is achievable with enough understanding and patience to get it where you want it.

My best advice is to research the plant(s) you intend on keeping and understand their needs. Are they water column feeders or root feeders? Are they red plants that will pop more under a more red spectrum light and do they need additional iron? How do you balance a tank? Do you intend to use gravel, aquasoil, dirt? How deep is the water as par is diluted with every inch light passes through the water? Are you wanting maximum growth, or just good growth? Do you even need C02? What causes types of algae and how do you combat it? Etc. 

Again, I am no expert, but understanding what your plants need and how to give it to them, how to balance your tank, how much (if any C02) you need, what temps plants prefer, what fish you want to stock and do they eat plants, root feeder/column feeder/epiphytes/ etc. is more important than what light you get in my opinion. 

[RennjiDK]

On 12/12/2022 at 8:03 PM, Jungle Fan said:

alas they are used to making a big buck of those who are willing to shell out $300 to $400 for some fish.

Also, not to get into a fresh vs salt debate, but salt really isn't as expensive as people make it out to be. It's just that our top end is significantly higher, if that interests you. You could set up a 20g with 2 clowns, a goby, and a few soft corals for around $200. That's the tank, salt, hard scape, livestock, light, and powerheads. That's the cost of some of your higher end plants and half the cost of a FX6 canister filter.

On 12/12/2022 at 8:38 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

Again, I am no expert, but understanding what your plants need and how to give it to them, how to balance your tank, how much (if any C02) you need, what temps plants prefer, what fish you want to stock and do they eat plants, root feeder/column feeder/epiphytes/ etc. is more important than what light you get in my opinion. 

Believe me, I understand more than most.

Edited December 13, 2022 by RennjiDK

[RennjiDK]

Here is another question I just thought of. How important is flow in a planted tank? I know that you aim for 5-10x volume through filtration media for nitrifying bacteria, but I've seen several planted tanks utilizing powerheads. Is this just for managing detritus? I don't believe that FW fish can't handle large amounts of flow.