Can't keep nerite snails alive past 24 hours

[onlywei]

On 11/19/2022 at 4:50 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Don't know, they don't list the ingredients. And think of it as a vitamin supplement. The water needs GH

And there's your salt source. Pretty sure that's swapping Ca and Mg with Na.

I don’t use salt in my water softener. I use potassium and it costs 6x the price.

Also, aren’t nerite snails brackish water creatures? Why would they be harmed by salt?

[Mmiller2001]

On 11/19/2022 at 3:16 PM, onlywei said:

Also, aren’t nerite snails brackish water creatures? Why would they be harmed by salt?

Only to breed. With a slow transition down to brackish waters I assume. 

I'll fall back on 0dGH. Have to have it for osmo regulation. 

Might also check on just how much potassium chloride is going into the water. Do you dechlorinate your water?

[onlywei]

On 11/19/2022 at 5:44 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Only to breed. With a slow transition down to brackish waters I assume. 

I'll fall back on 0dGH. Have to have it for osmo regulation. 

Might also check on just how much potassium chloride is going into the water. Do you dechlorinate your water?

I usually don’t dechlorinate. The reason is because I tested my water with strips from three different companies including Aquarium Co-op and they all resulted in zero free and total chlorine.

Additionally, I have this Boogie Pop filter attached to the hose that I use to fill up my aquariums: Boogie Blue Plus Garden Hose... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CCG9DF5?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

I will test my GH when I get home to see exactly how much my wonder shell has impacted it so far. It looks like even after a few days, the majority of the shell has not yet dissolved.

[Mmiller2001]

@Seattle_Aquarist

Can a water softener using potassium chloride produce/ cause toxic levels of chloride? 

Do dechlorinators remove excess chloride? I know they are different, but do they affect chloride?

Would excessive amounts of chloride disrupt osmo regulation?

Edited November 19, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 11/19/2022 at 3:04 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

@Seattle_Aquarist

Can a water softener using potassium chloride produce/ cause toxic levels of chloride? 

Do dechlorinators remove excess chloride? I know they are different, but do they affect chloride?

Would excessive amounts of chloride disrupt osmo regulation?

Hi @Mmiller2001  It's been several decades since I was a chemistry major but I believe the answer is this.  When using a sodium chloride (salt /NaCl) water softener the incoming calcium (Ca+) and magnesium (Mg+) ions are replaced with sodium (Na+) ions.  The output water has an excess of sodium (Na+) and chloride (Cl-) stay put in the tank attached to the Ca and Mg.

With potassium chloride (KCl) water softener the same thing happens put the output now has an excess of potassium (K+) and the chloride (Cl-) still stays in the softener.

Chloride (Cl-) is not the same as chlorine (Cl).  Chloride (Cl-) is an negative ion (anion) that typically attaches to a positive ion (cation) to form a compound like potassium chloride.  Most chloride compounds (KCl), MgCl, CaCl) are non-toxic except in high concentrations  Chlorine Cl is typically a gas or liquid (bleach) that is toxic to fish.

I was not a biology major but I do know the basics of osmoregulation; are you referring to it in plants or in fish?

BTW, some utilities treat water with chloramines instead of chlorine.  Chloromines will show up in chlorine tests but not necessarily all tests.  Chloromines are every bit as toxic to fish as chlorine.   -Roy

Edited November 20, 2022 by Seattle_Aquarist

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/19/2022 at 5:49 PM, onlywei said:

I usually don’t dechlorinate. The reason is because I tested my water with strips from three different companies including Aquarium Co-op and they all resulted in zero free and total chlorine.

Dechlorinators, depending on brand, will also remove heavy metals which are toxic to snails.

[onlywei]

On 11/20/2022 at 12:56 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Dechlorinators, depending on brand, will also remove heavy metals which are toxic to snails.

Besides Copper, what other heavy metals would we worry about?

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Iron, Zinc, Lead, Aluminum, and others. Further reading here

[Mmiller2001]

On 11/19/2022 at 10:48 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Mmiller2001  It's been several decades since I was a chemistry major but I believe the answer is this.  When using a sodium chloride (salt /NaCl) water softener the incoming calcium (Ca+) and magnesium (Mg+) ions are replaced with sodium (Na+) ions.  The output water has an excess of sodium (Na+) and chloride (Cl-) stay put in the tank attached to the Ca and Mg.

With potassium chloride (KCl) water softener the same thing happens put the output now has an excess of potassium (K+) and the chloride (Cl-) still stays in the softener.

Chloride (Cl-) is not the same as chlorine (Cl).  Chloride (Cl-) is an negative ion (anion) that typically attaches to a positive ion (cation) to form a compound like potassium chloride.  Most chloride compounds (KCl), MgCl, CaCl) are non-toxic except in high concentrations  Chlorine Cl is typically a gas or liquid (bleach) that is toxic to fish.

I was not a biology major but I do know the basics of osmoregulation; are you referring to it in plants or in fish?

BTW, some utilities treat water with chloramines instead of chlorine.  Chloromines will show up in chlorine tests but not necessarily all tests.  Chloromines are every bit as toxic to fish as chlorine.   -Roy

In this instance, snails.

[gardenman]

"They don't last 24 hours." Are you sure they're dead? Nerite snails tend to play possum when moved and just lie there for days or longer. It's kind of hard to kill them within 24 hours with any "normal" water issues. And while dead snails do smell bad, it takes a while for that smell to develop. They don't die and smell bad ten minutes later. It can take hours for the decomposition to reach a point where the smell is significant. My gut suspicion is you're expecting them to move and when they don't you think they're dead when they're just playing possum. Now maybe they were shipped dead or died in transit, but my gut says your water plays the smallest factor in the equation. 

[onlywei]

On 11/20/2022 at 8:19 AM, gardenman said:

"They don't last 24 hours." Are you sure they're dead? Nerite snails tend to play possum when moved and just lie there for days or longer. It's kind of hard to kill them within 24 hours with any "normal" water issues. And while dead snails do smell bad, it takes a while for that smell to develop. They don't die and smell bad ten minutes later. It can take hours for the decomposition to reach a point where the smell is significant. My gut suspicion is you're expecting them to move and when they don't you think they're dead when they're just playing possum. Now maybe they were shipped dead or died in transit, but my gut says your water plays the smallest factor in the equation. 

They started moving immediately when I put them in the water. Then they stopped moving shortly after. One even fell off the glass it was trying to climb.

Will Ramshorn snails be affected in the same way as nerite snails by whatever is in my water?  Maybe I can experiment with them by putting them in different water? I’m thinking the different waters will be:

1) my softened water that I have in my aquarium that has a wonder shell in it

2) my pre-softened water

3) my pre-softened water plus dechlorinator

4) my softened water plus equilibrium

5) my softened water plus dechlorinator

Pond/bladder snails seem to already survive fine in my softened water.

Is there any other water scenario I should test?

[onlywei]

On 11/20/2022 at 6:04 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Iron, Zinc, Lead, Aluminum, and others. Further reading here

I tested my water for GH and used a “Varify” brand strip to test other things.

I did three GH tests. The first test turned green after 6 drops. The second turned green after 5 drops, and the third turned green after 4 drops.

Iron, lead, copper, manganese, and zinc look like zero or very close to zero to me, but maybe someone can recognize those colors better than me?

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/20/2022 at 8:46 PM, onlywei said:

I tested my water for GH and used a “Varify” brand strip to test other things.

I did three GH tests. The first test turned green after 6 drops. The second turned green after 5 drops, and the third turned green after 4 drops.

Iron, lead, copper, manganese, and zinc look like zero or very close to zero to me, but maybe someone can recognize those colors better than me?

Very cool test strip kit.
 

Was there a card with the gH drop kit? I usually test gH with a strip; not familiar with how the drops work.

Cant really read the pH # from the photo. What was the pH?  I know mystery snails need at least a 7 pH. Nerites may require similar @onlywei

Edited November 29, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[onlywei]

On 11/28/2022 at 8:51 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Very cool test strip kit.
 

Was there a card with the gH drop kit? I usually test gH with a strip; not familiar with how the drops work.

Cant really read the pH # from the photo. What was the pH?  I know mystery snails need at least a 7 pH. Nerites may require similar @onlywei

There’s no card with the gH drop kit. It’s the API test kit. What you do is you add drops one by one until the water turns green instead of yellow. That is supposed to tell you your dGH.

The PH of my tap water is between 7.8 and 8.4. This specific tank has CO2 injection and Fluval stratum so that should have lowered my pH quite a bit. I would be quite flabbergasted if pH were the problem with the nerite snails, though. I see competition aquascapes with CO2 injection plus nerite snails all over the internet.