I don’t understand

[The endler guy]

My so im currently in environmental club and the environmental science teacher has these things plant things, and fish in them : ( it’s so sad

[meadeam]

I don't see the fish.  But many people regard fish as non-sentient, so the usual humanity doesn't apply.   I've baited a hook with fish not unlike those I spend a small fortune keeping.  I don't eat meat, except for fish, which I also keep as pets.  Our big brains allow us to be very dichotomous.

[Cinnebuns]

The value in a thing like that is the teacher is showing you how the ecosystem is cyclical and the fish feed the plants which clean the water for the fish. 

In regards to the ethics of keeping a fish like this it reminds me of something I've thought a out. Among dozens of other reasons, one reason racism exists is because our brains naturally categorize things and go towards the things we more closely identify in ourselves. I feel like there is kinda something similar that goes on when it comes to animals that aren't mammals. Fish aren't mammals but we are so we don't identify with them as much and therefore don't treat them as well as we would a dog or a cat. Idk just a thought that's crossed my mind. 

[The endler guy]

On 11/16/2022 at 4:16 PM, Cinnebuns said:

The value in a thing like that is the teacher is showing you how the ecosystem is cyclical and the fish feed the plants which clean the water for the fish. 

In regards to the ethics of keeping a fish like this it reminds me of something I've thought a out. Among dozens of other reasons, one reason racism exists is because our brains naturally categorize things and go towards the things we more closely identify in ourselves. I feel like there is kinda something similar that goes on when it comes to animals that aren't mammals. Fish aren't mammals but we are so we don't identify with them as much and therefore don't treat them as well as we would a dog or a cat. Idk just a thought that's crossed my mind. 

i understand what they are trying to show but that can be done with other very small/ non visible organisms. the worst part is that they keep dying and people are completely oblivious to why. it just really pushes my buttons when people put one organism above another

[TOtrees]

Looks like at attempt at aquaponics on a micro scale. Maybe suggest that a snail or two would be better suited to the small volume of water than fish, while still providing the digested food for fertilizing the plants. But that begs the ethical question, why is it okay to put a snail in there, when it's not okay to put a fish. The world is all shades of grey, not black and white. 

[The endler guy]

On 11/16/2022 at 4:20 PM, TOtrees said:

Looks like at attempt at aquaponics on a micro scale. Maybe suggest that a snail or two would be better suited to the small volume of water than fish, while still providing the digested food for fertilizing the plants. But that begs the ethical question, why is it okay to put a snail in there, when it's not okay to put a fish. The world is all shades of grey, not black and white. 

they were going to take the fish out (because they kept dying) and the teacher was going to put mystery snails, so I swooped in with "I have some rams horn snails" because they dont get as big

also it is more ethical to put snails in because they have a very undeveloped nervous system 

[Levi_Aquatics]

I think snails would be an amzing way to demonstrate the same thing without having to put a fish in that situation

[meadeam]

I'm a little baffled as to why the teacher thought any fish could survive long enough to validate the experiment.  The science is accurate, but the implementation is botched even without the ethical question.

[Cinnebuns]

On 11/16/2022 at 3:23 PM, Aiden Carter said:

they were going to take the fish out (because they kept dying) and the teacher was going to put mystery snails, so I swooped in with "I have some rams horn snails" because they dont get as big

also it is more ethical to put snails in because they have a very undeveloped nervous system 

You have a good head on your shoulders. A mystery snail would be worse than a small fish imo but ramshorns would be perfect. 

[The endler guy]

On 11/16/2022 at 4:52 PM, meadeam said:

I'm a little baffled as to why the teacher thought any fish could survive long enough to validate the experiment.  The science is accurate, but the implementation is botched even without the ethical question.

great question you would think they would realize that after the first fish died, also i forgot to mention one of the goldfish, that was there a few weeks ago had ich soooo yah

[Cinnebuns]

On 11/16/2022 at 3:56 PM, Aiden Carter said:

great question you would think they would realize that after the first fish died, also i forgot to mention one of the goldfish, that was there a few weeks ago had ich soooo yah

Omg one species she picked was goldfish?  Big oof

[The endler guy]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:03 PM, Cinnebuns said:

Omg one species she picked was goldfish?  Big oof

it was either that or koi/common carp I dont remember if I saw barbels 

[The endler guy]

The goobers I’m bringing in 

[mynameisnobody]

Why isn’t this teacher asking if anyone in the class has experience with keeping aquariums? Seems like they need all the help they can get. 

[Guppysnail]

It is always good when a teacher and student develop a symbiotic learning relationship. Being outside the hobby the teacher lacks the aquarium knowledge you have. Approaching it from a win win let’s help each other is a good approach. Take some time outside of class time to speak privately to the teacher and explain why an uncycled small set up is more appropriate to ramshorns than to fish. It will help them learn even more about how that type of ecosystem works in conjunction with the nitrogen cycle. It’s an even deeper understanding. They will thank you but do it privately or it may be considered a criticism. 

[TheSwissAquarist]

I’ve seen Least Killifish being kept in a 4 litre breeder box (and bred 😏) but I think that the pics that @Aiden Carter has posted are 2.5 liters maximum!

[The endler guy]

On 11/17/2022 at 9:11 AM, Jazz Pizza said:

Why isn’t this teacher asking if anyone in the class has experience with keeping aquariums? Seems like they need all the help they can get. 

I’m not in the class, her room/ she is the sponsor of the environmental club so I can’t speak if she did ask any one

On 11/17/2022 at 9:31 AM, Guppysnail said:

It is always good when a teacher and student develop a symbiotic learning relationship. Being outside the hobby the teacher lacks the aquarium knowledge you have. Approaching it from a win win let’s help each other is a good approach. Take some time outside of class time to speak privately to the teacher and explain why an uncycled small set up is more appropriate to ramshorns than to fish. It will help them learn even more about how that type of ecosystem works in conjunction with the nitrogen cycle. It’s an even deeper understanding. They will thank you but do it privately or it may be considered a criticism. 

I think she had some knowledge of the hobby as they did have fish in tanks before, and a tank where extra fish (that would replace the old ones when they died) has a filter and is dechlorinated 

[RockMongler]

A lot of teachers don't necessarily know much about aquatic creatures, even the ones you might expect to be good about it.  I've become my campus' go to aquatic life guy.  I've been able to help others get more sensible aquariums set up. 

I don't actually keep a tank in my classroom, because I don't trust the HVAC on the weekends to not throw the tanks temperatures way out of whack.  In the hot weather, there's no AC, and in the winter, they don't have the heaters on.  I also have to worry about cleaning chemicals being used in the classroom, and how if not done right, that could very well kill off an entire system.  I'd figure the snails are a good choice because they do tend to be more simple (they aren't vertebrates) and they can often thrive in conditions that would kill off many other creatures, and would still illustrate the cycle of nutrients and such in an ecosystem.

[The endler guy]

On 11/17/2022 at 10:36 AM, RockMongler said:

A lot of teachers don't necessarily know much about aquatic creatures, even the ones you might expect to be good about it.  I've become my campus' go to aquatic life guy.  I've been able to help others get more sensible aquariums set up. 

I don't actually keep a tank in my classroom, because I don't trust the HVAC on the weekends to not throw the tanks temperatures way out of whack.  In the hot weather, there's no AC, and in the winter, they don't have the heaters on.  I also have to worry about cleaning chemicals being used in the classroom, and how if not done right, that could very well kill off an entire system.  I'd figure the snails are a good choice because they do tend to be more simple (they aren't vertebrates) and they can often thrive in conditions that would kill off many other creatures, and would still illustrate the cycle of nutrients and such in an ecosystem.

Now you got me worried on getting my mudskippers for my school tank!

[RockMongler]

On 11/17/2022 at 9:44 AM, Aiden Carter said:

Now you got me worried on getting my mudskippers for my school tank!

I'm probably overly worrying about it.  I have several colleagues with critters that do fine on the weekends.  Fish tanks, frog vivariums, Axolotl tanks, hamsters, guinea pigs...  But, I know I'd feel bad if a student did something that caused the death of a creature in my care, or if something happened after I'm gone for the day or over a weekend.  I also focus on teaching Earth & Space Science, less on environmental and biology, and in years past I also taught chemistry which also was a hard no for living things in the classroom.  Too much of a chance of something getting in the tank in enough volume to hurt the critters in my car. 

Also, if it's in a classroom, you almost certainly have to take it down at the end of the school year.  We have to leave our rooms very clean, so the janitorial staff can do deep cleaning over the summer.  Nothing out on counters, all furniture gets pulled out, all that kind of fun stuff.  I imagine most districts have similar rules.

[sumplkrum]

I think maybe the teacher was thinking of something like this. If so, her construction and application is completely wrong.

• The gravel above the water needs to 'breathe' so there's proper gas exchange. You wouldn't use dirt above it.
• The water needs to be changed regularly to keep the fish healthy.
• You still need to feed the fish. The idea is supposed to be that they nibble the roots, but that's not really a balanced diet.

I've seen things like this sold, but even this one is a very poor design.

What she's really done is made a regular planter, which normally just has water in the bottom. - Then randomly decided to add creatures where they shouldn't be.

[nabokovfan87]

If she wants to use feeder species. I would suggest setting up a 20G Long for ghost shrimp or RCS.  Cheap, easy, and the teacher can keep them without much fuss in the class.  Then use that in the jars instead of fish.