Dechlorinators that claim to detoxify Ammonia

[Pepere]

Started a new separate thread to flesh this out rather than continue in old thread, would you consider breaking quarantine.

I have a healthy skepticism regarding the claim that dechlorinators “bind, detoxify or lock up” Ammonia  for a period of time.  Sometimes mentioned as 48 hours, sometimes as up to a day.

The vague language around the claim certainly contributes to this skepticism.

I am interested in learning more about the data behind these claims and whether I can be convinced they have merit.

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea brought to my attention the following paper.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341880529_Application_of_the_consortia_of_nitrifying_archaea_and_bacteria_for_fish_transportation_may_be_beneficial_for_fish_trading_and_aquaculture

@modified lung also provided some links I look forward to reading later.

Let me start by saying I hold both of these individuals in high regard and value their input.

the link above is one I have questions about now.  This was an attempt to determine if adding in essence, bacteria in a bottle to bags of fish being shipped would contribute to lower ammonia levels in the water while shipping.

this was specifically done with salt water fish and not freshwater.

one of the tests also dosed the water with Seachem Prime in addition to bacteria in a bottle to see if it gave added benefit.

Section 2.5 of the paper details chemical removal of ammonia efficacy of Seachem prime. They reference removal as opposed to “detoxification, locking up or binding”

they created 100 ml samples of artificial saltwater that they dosed with Ammonium Chloride to roughly 5 ppm. They then tried varying doses of Seachem Prime.

O% as a control, 0.0025%, 0.0125%, 0.1%, 0.25% and 0.5% on a volume to volume measurement.

The solution was then tested with the Hach method and read with a spectrometer eliminating subjective readings.  The Hach method is what the API Master Test kit uses for Ammonia readings.

 

dosing to 0.5% resulted in a 90% lower ammonia reading after 10 minutes. 

lower doses showed lower reduction.

they note that 0.5% is 20 times higher dosing than reccomended by the manufacturer.

And before you try doing it yourself to treat ammonia spikes, be aware that this dosage plus bacteria treatment resulted in the death of one fish in the test bag and ended the test early as the other fish was showing signs of significant distress and needed treatment.

one thing that is confusing me is the math does not seem to line up.  Maybe I am the one making an error, but o.5% by volume would be the volume of the solution times 0.005.

now given that 1 gallon contains 3,785 milliliters, multiplied by 0.005 would call for 18.9 milliliters of Prime if I am doing the math right.  If I am not I would very much like to be corrected.

 

this is a far cry from 20 times dosing reccomendation as Prime calks for 5 mls in 50 gallons of water, or 1 mill per 10 gallons or 0.1 ml per gallon, up to 5 times in 24 hours I believe.

 

If my math is correct,0.5% by volume they were doseing 189 time standard dosing and 37.8 times maximum reccomended dose.

 

Again if I am making a silly math mistake let me know.

In any event, it appears if you dose ammonia water sufficiently high enough it does indeed cause a significant and measurable with api master test kit reduction in Ammonia.

Now the claims about it “detoxifying, locking up or binding” ammonia usually state that measured ammonia and Ammonium, ie total ammoniawill not be reduced by their reccomended dosage but it will simply be made not toxic.  It is not claimed that it converts toxic free amonia to ammonium either and testing does not show any conversion from free ammonia to Ammonium.

Under part 4 of the paper it further discusses commercial ammonia reducers containing sodium hydroxymethane sulphonate as the main ingredient could be useful in 

A variet of aquaculture settings and again references the 20 times dosage leading me to believe this isthe ingredient in Prime reducing the Ammonia levels with dosing of 0.5% by volume.

 

I plan on mixing up a batch of water dosed to 5 ppm ammonia and trying various doses of dechlorinator to see what dosage gives a significant measured reduction and will be happy to share.

 

again, nothing in this paper gave any hint on normal reccomended dosage “ detoxifying, binding or locking up” ammonia for a temporary period of time so clearly  it does not in any way support the claim that it does “detoxify, lock up or bind” ammonia for a temporary period of time with no measurable reduction of ammonia via Hach testing.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

I’m excited to see what you come up with in your own testing. While I don’t have the time, equipment, nor passion to go down that rabbit hole, I have used Prime in a couple of situations. Here’s my thoughts. 
 

-Early in my hobby I maybe jumped the gun a little bit and/or disturbed/killed bacteria that resulted in mild ammonia spikes. The one that comes to mind is when I was dealing with some algae (tank wasn’t seasoned/balanced yet, I was new, and wasn’t patient) and dosed the tank with Hydrogen Peroxide to help rid the algae. Knowing I would probably create and ammonia spike, I tested daily, and sure enough I did. It never got crazy, but instead of water changing daily I dosed with Prime, and in a few days everything was back on track. 
 

-More recently (within the past couple of weeks) I noticed I was missing a Rainbowfish. I wasn’t really concerned as this tank digested a Dwarf Gourami that I didn’t notice go missing (was working a 14 day event for my job literally 6-7 days/week 12-14 hours per day plus drive time. Restaurants are crazy) but this time my remaining Rainbows were acting strange. Normally, they’re all over the place, but I noticed they were hiding in the plants which I thought was weird. This prompted me to test and sure enough there was a slight bit of ammonia in the water. I busted out my Fritz Complete as Prime is just way too expensive these days and they’re basically the same, and within 30 minutes of dosing the tank at normal dosage (3ml in a 29 gallon tank) the Rainbows were back to their normal antics. I observed/tested over the next several days and sure enough everything was back on track and we’re good to go. 
 

I guess what I’m getting at is, in my personal experience, I’ve seen noticeable changes that both lead me to test and find a problem, as well as indications that the fish themselves noticed a change (both positive and negative). On top of that, the absolutely negligible cost of dosing some Complete or Prime to make me have some peace of mind is worth it to me. 
 

Again, just my personal experience with my tanks and my thoughts. Excited to see what you come up with through testing!

[PineSong]

I am the furthest thing from a chemist so cannot speak to the theory or veracity of this explanation but I recall in a previous discussion of this topic someone who does know the science said that Prime is actually acting on the gills when it comes to reducing the impact of the ammonia, not removing the ammonia from the water? I can't remember the thread and perhaps I am mixing it up with something else, but I remember reading the explanation and making a mental note.

I have used Prime this way every time meds have messed up my cycle (mostly when my first tank was new, and QT tanks) and I could not stay home all day to change water and could not keep water safe without doing so. 

[Odd Duck]

On 11/14/2022 at 7:11 PM, Pepere said:

If my math is correct,0.5% by volume they were doseing 189 time standard dosing and 37.8 times maximum reccomended dose.

Your math is correct. It is an interesting paper and I’m glad you bothered to run down the math because I hadn’t.  I did find it interesting to see that Dr. Tim’s formula was the only one that showed any real benefit as far as moving ammonia through the nitrification process.  It also seemed to actually match the microfauna found in actual filters better, but certainly not completely.  They did have some interesting findings from doing DNA testing on what was in the bottles vs what was in the tanks.  I wish they had run at least a few tests on some fresh water fish or at least done the DNA testing on a couple freshwater filters.

I can’t wait to see what you find on your study.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/14/2022 at 8:11 PM, Pepere said:

I plan on mixing up a batch of water dosed to 5 ppm ammonia and trying various doses of dechlorinator to see what dosage gives a significant measured reduction and will be happy to share

This is a great discussion. Thanks for starting the thread! What will you use to do the testing? An ammonia test will still read positive even after the ammonia is bound.

 

On 11/14/2022 at 10:51 PM, PineSong said:

I have used Prime this way every time meds have messed up my cycle (mostly when my first tank was new, and QT tanks) and I could not stay home all day to change water and could not keep water safe without doing so

I have used it with a water change or without a water change. Without when medicating, as adding new meds is going to change the medication potency that the fish is subject to, and meds are stressful on fish as well.

I usually have a problem when I’m treating with salt as well. @modified lung helped me by explaining how bacteria slow down with salt, and the more salt you add at once, the longer it takes them to spring back. I usually medicate for the illness, and afterwards do the salt. Salt goes in at a low level during treatment as well to help fish with electrolytes and recovery. Shortly after the salt stage is started is when I end up with ammonia and incorporate Prime into the process.

[Pepere]

On 11/15/2022 at 4:58 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

What will you use to do the testing? An ammonia test will still read positive even after the ammonia is bound.

In the paper you referenced they tested with a Hach ammonia test and saw a 90% reduction in measured ammonia after 10 minutes when testing  water that was instilled with Prime at a rate of 0.5% volume to volume.

 

This was a reduction with measured ammonia, not an invisible unmeasurable “locking up, binding or detoxifying”

 

the API master test kit ammonia test is a Salicylate test to report total ammonia as is the Hach test used in the referenced paper.  After running the reagents the read the bottle using a photospectrometer to eliminate subjective readings of visually determining the color match.

 

I only have the Mark 1 human eyeball, but I will include photos for other people to judge as well.

There does seem to be a glaring error in the reporting in the paper where they state using 0.5% by volume of Prime but then report that is 20 times recommended dosage.  I believe it is more like 189 times recommended dosage, and 37 times maximum dosage.

If anyone sees that I have made a math error as opposed to one being in the paper I would truly like to be shown my error.

 

In any event, I plan on testing out this weekend.

Again while it is interesting that Prime can reduce ammonia levels at 0.5% by volume, that in know way validates a claim of “locking up, detoxifying or binding” ammonia temporarily at 0.002642% to 0.01321%  Prime instilled by volume, which is the recommended dosage of Prime. 0.1 ml of Prime per gallon to a max of 0.5 ml of Prime per gallon in 24 hours.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Pepere
Edited to specify both the API test and Hach tests are Salicylate tests for total ammonia.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

The Seachem ammonia alert cards may prove useful (or just interesting) in your testing.  Other posters use them and supposedly they only measure toxic ammonia. (I do not have any personal experience with these alert cards)

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Pepere]

On 11/15/2022 at 6:12 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

The Seachem ammonia alert cards may prove useful (or just interesting) in your testing.

Other people have previously tested Seachems claim of Prime detoxifying ammonia at recommended dosages and found no evidence of a reduction in toxic ammonia vs ammonium which is what the ammonia alert card is alerting for.

Basically I want to determine what level of dosing one needs to have to see a 90% reduction in total ammonia 10 minutes after dosing.   I am trying to find if the discrepency in their math was the dosage by volume, or the multiple of recommended dosage.  
 

Ie, did they drop a zero on the reporting that the dosage was actually almost 200 times recommended as opposed to 20 times, or was the requisite dosing to see the change really 0.05% by volume as opposed to 0.5?
 

either way it could simply be an inadvertant decimal placing error which is incredibly easy to make…

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/15/2022 at 5:43 AM, Pepere said:

the API master test kit ammonia test is a Hach test

Isn't Hach a brand name?  

https://www.hach.com/parameters/ammonia?origin=dropdown&c1=parameters&c2=featured-parameters&c3=ammonia-ammonium&clickedon=ammonia-ammonium

@modified lung does water testing for a living and may be able to weigh in on Hach tests.

[Pepere]

On 11/15/2022 at 6:36 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Isn't Hach a brand name?  

My understanding is it is a method as well as a brand.  At least I have heard it referred to as Hach method.
 

I would be happy to be corrected though if my understanding is wrong.

In section 2.1 of the referenced paper they wrote Total Ammonia was tested via Salicylate method (Hach)….

 

The API Master Test Kit Ammonia test is a Salicylate method test fro total ammonia.

 

In any event, I edited the original post to read;

“The API master test kit ammonia test is a Salicylate test to report total ammonia as is the Hach test used in the referenced paper.”

Edited November 15, 2022 by Pepere

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

In my experience the API ammonia test reading was the same before and after adding Prime. It doesn't seem to differentiate between nontoxic and toxic ammonia.  A google search of "false positive ammonia reading" will guide you to similar experiences that other aquarists have had.  The test kit I used was the API liquid test.  It was a new test kit, not expired.

[Pepere]

Yes. With doses per recommendation by Seachem, no change is noted from total ammonia.

Per the referenced paper, dosing to 0.5% by volume in a sample with 5 ppm saw a 90% reduction in total Ammonia within 10 minutes.  Both the Hach test they were using and the API are Salicylate tests.

 

Seachem does not make the claim that Prime at reccomended doses that it reduces toxic free ammonia NH3, Ammonium NH4+, or the ratio of the two or total sum of the twoIt still measures the same.  
 

They claim;

Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. It contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them.

No mention is made of the binder, the mechanism by which it works, how it can be tested to ensure it does what it says nor is any evidence provided to back up the claim.

 

 

 

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/15/2022 at 9:00 AM, Pepere said:

Yes. With doses per recommendation by Seachem, no change is noted from total ammonia.

Per the referenced paper, dosing to 0.5% by volume in a sample with 5 ppm saw a 90% reduction in total Ammonia within 10 minutes.  Both the Hach test they were using and the API are Salicylate tests.

 

Seachem does not make the claim that Prime at reccomended doses that it reduces toxic free ammonia NH3, Ammonium NH4+, or the ratio of the two or total sum of the twoIt still measures the same.  
 

They claim;

Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. It contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them.

No mention is made of the binder, the mechanism by which it works, how it can be tested to ensure it does what it says nor is any evidence provided to back up the claim.

 

 

 

 

Why not send them an email?  I'm sure they have the information to provide.

[Pepere]

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea asked, “Why not send them an email?”

Because I dont want to waste my time.

 

people have tried and they simply dance around the issue and refuse to answer directly.

 

I have read the back and forth emails people have posted as they tried to delve in to this with the company.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Pepere

[Guppysnail]

On 11/15/2022 at 9:23 AM, Pepere said:

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea asked, “Why not send them an email?”

Because I dont want to waste my time.

 

people have tried and they simply dance around the issue and refuse to answer directly.

 

I have read the back and forth emails people have posted as they tried to delve in to this with the company.

Quite awhile ago I called seachem. They don’t divulge how it works but I specifically asked does it work on the water or does it do something to the fish or helping the fish. 
The answer was it binds and does nothing affecting the fish positively or negatively 

[Pepere]

On 11/15/2022 at 9:29 AM, Guppysnail said:

Quite awhile ago I called seachem. They don’t divulge how it works but I specifically asked does it work on the water or does it do something to the fish or helping the fish. 
The answer was it binds and does nothing affecting the fish positively or negatively 

Yep, they make a claim without providing any evidence.  I figure contacting them would not provide me with any confidence the product lives up to the claim.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/15/2022 at 10:04 AM, Pepere said:

Yep, they make a claim without providing any evidence.  I figure contacting them would not provide me with any confidence the product lives up to the claim.

I’m sure it’s proprietary. They are probably protecting their trade secret, just like Coca-Cola will not publish its recipe and keeps it in a safe. They have a differentiated product, and I’m sure they wish to limit competition in their industry.

[Pepere]

On 11/15/2022 at 10:58 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I’m sure it’s proprietary. They are probably protecting their trade secret

Yes, that is one possible explanation,  and I have read several other far less flattering explanations too.   
 

Regardless it is conjecture.  I dont put a lot of stock in any of it.

 

A claim is made about a product that as far as I know so far, can not be validated. No evidence is given that the claim is valid.

Anecdotal stories abound, but I dont place much confidence in anecdotal stories.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/15/2022 at 11:14 AM, Pepere said:

Yes, that is one possible explanation,  and I have read several other far less flattering explanations too.   
 

Regardless it is conjecture.  I dont put a lot of stock in any of it.

 

A claim is made about a product that as far as I know so far, can not be validated. No evidence is given that the claim is valid.

Anecdotal stories abound, but I dont place much confidence in anecdotal stories.

I’m anxious to see what you discover with your testing. 

[meadeam]

It should be pretty simple.  Isn't there a chemist in the house?  Ammonium (NH4) simply contains one more Hydrogen than Ammonia (NH3).  Ammonium is ionised Ammonia.  So how do you ionise Ammonia?  I could probably search my way to the answer, but my guess is there are multiple ways one could do it.  Seachem and other manufacturers have their way of doing it.  Do we really care how it is done?  Ammonia = Dead Fish.  Ammonium = Live fish, for the time being.  That really is all I care about, unless for some reason I discover that I could be making my own Prime out easily obtained and cheaper alternatives.  I use enough of the stuff.

[Pepere]

@meadeam Seachem Prime does not claim to convert ammonia to ammonium.

 

testing water with measurable ammonium and ammonia after treatment with Seachem Prime shows no change of ratios.

[meadeam]

On 11/15/2022 at 12:16 PM, Pepere said:

@meadeam Seachem Prime does not claim to convert ammonia to ammonium.

 

testing water with measurable ammonium and ammonia after treatment with Seachem Prime shows no change of ratios.

Well that is interesting then.  I assumed (having not read this whole thread, obviously) that the Ammonia to Ammonium conversion was settled, and the question was how it is done.

If Prime is fraudulent it's easy enough to verify using test and control groups.  I'm not going to do it, but I am sure somebody has killed a few dozen fish to answer this question.  Maybe it's better to be blissfully unaware, and have my fish-in cycles continue to go smoothly.

[modified lung]

On 11/14/2022 at 5:11 PM, Pepere said:

I have a healthy skepticism regarding the claim that dechlorinators “bind, detoxify or lock up” Ammonia  for a period of time.

The skepticism can definitely be reasonable. I lean toward believing it detoxifies because I know wholesalers that swear by it and the common argument against it is quite bad. One thing that concerns me about products like Prime is that water dechlorinated with them kill things like Daphnia. Maybe it doesn't hurt anything else, but also maybe it does.

On 11/14/2022 at 5:11 PM, Pepere said:

The vague language around the claim certainly contributes to this skepticism.

They definitely don't do themselves any favors with the skeptical crowd. I saw the patent for one of the dechlorinator recipes once and it basically said they really don't know how it works but testing on live fish in high ammonia levels seemed to have a positive effect. Then it gave some theoretical binding chem equations of how it might work. They decided to use the idea behind that equation for the marketing probably because who would buy it if they said they don't know how it works on the bottle? 

On 11/14/2022 at 5:11 PM, Pepere said:

Section 2.5 of the paper details chemical removal of ammonia efficacy of Seachem prime. They reference removal as opposed to “detoxification, locking up or binding”

I wouldn't read too much into that. I think you could reasonably say lowing pH causes hydrogen to bind or lock ammonia into ammonium or you could say it detoxifies or even removes ammonia by transforming it into ammonium. The only difference is the binder in this case is hydrogen rather than some more complex molecule. 

Considering they don't really know how it works, it still could be just converting to ammonium which is likely at least part of it either way because I believe it lowers pH.

On 11/14/2022 at 5:11 PM, Pepere said:

one thing that is confusing me is the math does not seem to line up.

The recommended dose is 0.125 mL per 1000 mL for 5 ppm ammonia.

https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115000125454-Info-Seachem-Prime-dosing-instructions

0.125 mL x 20 = 2.5 mL

2.5 mL / 1000 mL = 0.0025 mL/mL which is 0.25% vol/vol used in experiment #3.

I suspect they're covering their butts by mentioning the lower concentration (20x) which wasn't tested with fish in case that's toxic too.

On 11/14/2022 at 5:11 PM, Pepere said:

In any event, it appears if you dose ammonia water sufficiently high enough it does indeed cause a significant and measurable with api master test kit reduction in Ammonia.

I'm not sure you'll see much on the API test though. If you have 5 ppm total ammonia at 8.2 pH and 75°F, there's only about 0.47 ppm free ammonia. The API test isn't that accurate at that high of a range. You'd need a higher quality test and a spectrometer.

But if you use a very, very high dose of Prime, you may see a difference. Then it would be reasonable to assume if a higher dose removes higher amounts of ammonia, then a lower dose (as recommended) removes lower amounts of ammonia (as is more typical in aquariums). But this assumes Prime works in a certain way. Otherwise, you'd still need a higher quality test, a spectrometer, and some fancy equations.

On 11/14/2022 at 5:11 PM, Pepere said:

again, nothing in this paper gave any hint on normal reccomended dosage “ detoxifying, binding or locking up” ammonia for a temporary period of time so clearly  it does not in any way support the claim that it does “detoxify, lock up or bind” ammonia for a temporary period of time with no measurable reduction of ammonia via Hach testing.

That's not true. This paper is strong evidence Prime can work. Maybe some hard skeptics would need more but it's still good evidence in that direction. 

On 11/14/2022 at 7:51 PM, PineSong said:

but I recall in a previous discussion of this topic someone who does know the science said that Prime is actually acting on the gills when it comes to reducing the impact of the ammonia, not removing the ammonia from the water?

You probably got that from me. I usually say it's a possible way it can work even if their customer service people say it isn't because they don't actually know how it works. You'd be surprised how often stuff like this happens.

[Pepere]

On 11/15/2022 at 2:17 PM, modified lung said:

I lean toward believing it detoxifies because I know wholesalers that swear by it

Thank you for your input.

Upon reading it all, I think I am just going to throw my hands up in the air and walk away.

I dont have much confidence any testing I do would provide clarity after reading your response.

I have not read or seen anything that would allow me in good conscience to dose a tank with dechlorinator during an issue with ammonia or nitrite and think that was good enough….  I would do a water change and dose to deal with chlorine….  If the dosing also helps with residual levels after a water change, great, gladto have the help even if I dont understand or believe i…..

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I think you should use the procedure you are comfortable with for ammonia management. Each hobbyist may have a different way or process for lots of things depending on their setup, their inhabitants, their plants, their schedule, their tap water chemistry, and their comfort level.