Please help me figure out how my betta died.

[Tam]

Hello all, I posted this on a different betta-specific forum but didn't get any help so I'm cross-posting here. I'm sorry this is long. I made a post back several months ago now about my betta Lucien. He was having bloating problems/constipation and some swim bladder issues. I could never get it under control no matter what I did, he was a very picky eater and only wanted to eat flakes, and the only thing I could do to keep his bowels moving along was to wrap up freeze dried daphnia in his flakes and trick him into eating them off of a toothpick. Even with this he would always bloat right after feeding him, and because of the bloating and his gradually worsening swim bladder issues I wasn't able to feed him very large amounts. While I don't think he was really thin I don't think he was able to get all the nutrients he needed with just the daphnia and the flakes. All this to say, he'd been slowing down for a few months and then a few days ago things went downhill very quickly. He stopped moving much at all and was acting weird, not responding to me anymore like he had done all this time, and he was abruptly not interested in dinner, despite eagerly eating his breakfast. Then I was away from him for maybe two hours, came back to check on him and one of his eyes had gone cloudy, and then swelled up hugely. His other eye always looked fine. I thought at first that maybe his difficulty swimming made him run into something and injured his eye, but I'm not sure anymore. In less than 24 hours he went from looking pretty normal to being completely washed out of color, red gills, hardly able to swim, the one popeye, clearly not able to breathe, he would struggle so hard to get to the surface of the water for air way more often than normal. It was really distressing to watch and not knowing what it was or being able to stop his suffering. Then I noticed some stuff that looked like mold almost, coming off his gills, his one popeye, and this weird white spot on his side. I'd noticed this spot a couple of weeks before but thought that it was his scales changing colors because they were constantly changing so much. I didn't notice anything like that growing off of it until the day he died. I do have a picture of it, though it's blurry, but I'd rather not have to look at it again if I can help it.... I've put this post off for a few days because I'm so heartsick over losing him. I loved him a lot, he was my first betta and he was really special, I kind of can't overstate how dear he was to me. I didn't even have him for a year and half yet and I feel like I failed him. I really want to figure out how he died so I can hopefully have what I need on hand in the future to help any other fish, and know what to do. I'm assuming his immune system was worn down and something got hold of him and took him out but it was very quick, less than 48 hours altogether. I've tried to do some research but can't really find anything that it seems to obviously be, the only thing I thought sounded kinda similar was maybe columnaris? Like I said this is my first betta and I'm inexperienced, and could really use help from some people who've been in the hobby longer and know more than me.

Some info on his tank conditions: I kept him in a planted 10 gallon tank, weekly water changes of around 40% and gravel vacuuming. Water parameters were always 0 nitrite and ammonia, very low nitrates. The PH is around 8 and the water is a little hard but nothing crazy, I don't have exact numbers. Temp is always 78 and it runs with a sponge filter. There are two nerite snails also in the tank and they're both doing fine.

I also have another betta, Jupiter, in a 6 gallon tank and I'm certain there's been crossover between their tanks even though I've tried to keep them as separate as possible. In the beginning of September I had to evacuate my house due to a wildfire and evacuated with my fish and when I set them up with their heaters in a safe location I accidentally put Lucien's heater in Jupiter's tank and vice versa, and just in general I'm sure there's been some crossover with tools and stuff, though I use a different siphon for both tanks. I've been watching Jupiter like a hawk and he seems completely fine, but then he doesn't have the bloating/constipation issues and will eat anything so he has a more varied diet and I'm sure his immune system is strong. In fact he's been happily making a bubble nest the past couple days for the first time.

And finally another question, and if no one can answer anything else I really want help with this - I really want to get another betta, but I don't know if I can put it in Lucien's tank. I don't want to risk my next fish getting whatever Lucien did. But I don't want to trash the whole setup and start over cycling a new tank, like I said I have plants in the tank and it's been cycled now for over a year, I finally have the plants growing pretty well in the last month or two and the algae pretty under control after struggling with it for a loooong time. I've put a lot of love and hard work into this tank. The tank itself does have a leak very high up and I've been dealing with it by just not filling it to the top, but I have another 10 gallon of the same kind that I want to swap it out with while the tank doesn't have a fish in it, and I also want to replace the substrate for something that isn't inert and is good for growing plants. Aside from that I want to keep using my hardscape and plants, and the filter, so I can keep it cycled/not have to start completely over from scratch. So, my question is if it's safe to put another fish in the tank? I did a near complete water change after Lucien died, and I'll keep changing the water on schedule as usual. Is there anything I could treat the tank with to kill off anything that's growing in there that could harm another fish? Or do I just need to wait for anything in there to die off without a host to live off of? I would much appreciate any help anyone can give me, and I'm sorry this got so long, I just want to be thorough. I've been agonizing over this for days. Like I said before if I need to upload the pictures of Lucien I can, I would just like to avoid it if possible because it hurts so much to look at them. Thanks so much for any help anyone can give!!

[Adam Swarbrick]

Unfortunately sometimes you just get unlucky with fish. You try the best you can but it just doesn’t work out for whatever reason. It may have been an illness but from your previous post you’ve had a few tries at fixing him that way, have you considered internal deformities? These fish are raised in the thousands so there’s always the chance one will get through. 
 

Personally I’d like to leave it a couple months if water is staying in. That should be enough time for most normal illnesses to die off ( no host to live on)

However, if you already plan to replace the majority of the tank you may as well do it now.

I would use beneficial bacteria from Jupiters tank to kick start the new 10G setup and if you want to use Luciens after a couple months you’ll have a third setup 👍

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Hi @Tam I'm sorry about your Betta. Bloating can be so many issues that it may be at this point hard to figure out what it could have been. It can be anything from organ failure to cancer/tumors, dropsy (which IME you can reduce symptoms but but the time you see those it's pretty much too late and all you can do is try and keep them comfortable). You having possibly cross contaminating the tanks and the other fish not getting sick tells me one of 2 things- either Jupiter is just an extra healthy fish whose immune system helped him fight illness off OR whatever Lucien had was not illness but disease like organ failure. You wouldn't have been able to help him in this case.

I want you to know, DESPITE the industry making it seem like otherwise- Betta fish ARE NOT easy fish to keep. They are prone to illness, fin rot, bacterial infections and etc- part of this is because they are bred for all these fancy long fins or markings and they are not bred for longevity or health. (This same thing happens in the pet industry all over). So please, I understand your pain entirely, but don't beat yourself up over it- just resolve to move forward and learn more. 

I agree with @Adam Swarbrick I'd leave the tank a month OR start the migration from that tank to the new tank with whatever you want to keep. This should be enough time for illness to clear. Know that all tanks have the illnesses lurking somwhere within but if we do our best to keep our stock healthy then they can easily fight all of that off. 

Two bits of advice from me and the learning curve I've had with Bettas. Look into bumping your aquarium temp to 80-82, Betta are air breathers but need the humidity in the air to live optimally- the heat helps that and keeps their little systems more comfortable. Make sure your lid fits tight so that you can build up the humidity. Because they prefer warmer tanks bacterial infections may happen more often so I'd also look into putting Catappa leaves aka Indian Almond Leaf into your Betta tanks- it is a natural anti-oxidant and anti-bacterial. The fish love the tannins. I use it in all my tanks now and I've had healthier tanks since. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Tam]

Thank you @xXInkedPhoenixX and @Adam Swarbrick for your replies and help! Once I get the new substrate I'll move my hardscape and plants into a new 10 gallon but I think I'll end up waiting for a month or two before I get another betta no matter what, I'll just work on maintaining the tank. I think Lucien was probably experiencing organ failure, I just don't know what underlying thing caused that, and I don't suppose I'll ever be able to know, although I'm certain he didn't have dropsy at least. I really think that spot on his side was strange and wish I'd realized it sooner, and I don't know what the stuff growing off of him in the last 24 hours was, I can't convince myself that it wasn't something contagious. I'm still nervous about previous cross-contamination between my tanks and any going forward though I'm trying to be really careful. Thank you for your encouragement, I've really been feeling awful, it's been almost two weeks and I miss my fish so much.

A couple more questions, are there any medications you would recommend I have on hand for the future? And regarding the catappa leaves I'll buy some for Jupiter's tank and for whoever my next betta will be but I heard they change the color of the tank water. Of course the fish's health is more important than aesthetics, but I was wondering just how much does it change the color of the water?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Tam I'm glad you are feeling at least a little better about things. I understand being a bit anxious about disease especially when you lose a favorite fish friend. Take your time and enjoy the new tank building process. 🙂 

Catappa leaves can make water VERY dark. It's all a matter of preference. Personally, I brew Indian Almond leaf tea- I just boil a couple of leaves in a large stock pot, let it cool and steep, then I use that tea during water changes. It tints the water some but you get used to it and barely notice the color change- but it's there. This way I don't have to deal with decaying leaves and detrius they can cause- BUT if you have snails or shrimp- they'd love to eat decaying leaves so it's again, preference! 

As far as meds- at least stock Aquarium Co-op's Med Trio as  it does cover quite a few things. Personally I have a lot of meds some overlap each other. But if you have none- start there. I also have a high preference for SeaChem's Kanaplex (metroplex is also helpful but the active ingredient Metronidazole is also in ParaCleanse recommended by ACO). I see a lot of people also using Jungle's Fungus Clear tablets. 

 

Start with basics and when you see a useful med here or on another forum, consider having it on hand. Along with basics, like Aquarium Salt and Epsom Salt (plain, no oils or scents added)

And always have a QT tank. Then you don't have to worry about plants or other inhabitants. 🙂

[Boulder_Betta]

I’m so sorry for your loss- I felt the same way when I lost my girl Crescent after my yo-yo loach stressed her to a point where dropsy killed her. I’m 87% sure that he died from a fungal infection (it might be bacterial, but fungal is way more likely), as the ”stuff that looked like mold almost, coming off his gills” is one of the primary symptoms of it- the same thing happened when I first tried to make a sorority. If this happens in the future, salt and maracyn/erythromycin are gonna be your best bets for recovery. Hope this helps.

[Adam Swarbrick]

I do trust corys med trio, despite not being able to get it in the uk. But based on my experiences I’ve only been able to cure fish illnesses using salt….

[Tam]

@xXInkedPhoenixX Thanks, I'll definitely stock up on the meds you mentioned! I have regular epsom salt but I don't have aquarium salt so I'll get some of that too. I tried the epsom salt early on with his constipation but it didn't seem to help. I'm so nervous with trying new things because it's unfamiliar and I'm afraid of screwing up somehow 😣 - another question if you don't mind, when you make the catappa "tea" do you use the whole pot or do you just use some of it and save the rest, like in the fridge or something? Seems like otherwise you'd be going through a lot of leaves....

@Boulder_Betta I was thinking fungal too but I'm so unfamiliar with it all, with pictures of various things I looked up online nothing really seemed to fit, except maybe columnaris (which I think is actually bacterial from what I read?) And it was so weird because there was no sign of anything on his body (aside from one small white spot on his cheek that wasn't fuzzy when it first showed up) until less than a day before he actually died. If it was something, either fungal or bacterial, I was wondering if I could just use one of the meds to treat his entire aquarium and if that would deal with anything left over living in there, do you know? Or would that be bad for the snails/plants/beneficial bacteria? I actually have maracyn on hand, it's the only thing I have.

 

@Adam Swarbrick Thanks, I'm going to get the med trio and some aquarium salt for sure!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

It's ok @Tam ask as many questions as you need. This is how I brew my tea and use it in my tank water with the help of friend @Chick-In-Of-TheSea who has posted recently about it and is using a similar method: 

I have Indian Almond leaves on a subscription order with Amazon. My water changing system for my 5 tanks is as follows: 

I keep 1 gallon empty water jugs from drinking water- anywhere from 9 to 11 of them (that changes due to them wearing out or if I'm using one for Epsom water etc). 

I bring to a boil 2-3 full sized IAL leaves in an 8 quart stock pot, once boiling I turn off the burner, put on the lid and steep anywhere from 8-12 hours.

I then fill each of the 1 gallon jugs with SOME of that tea water (anywhere from 2 to 4 fingers high) then fill the rest of the way with tap water and fritz dechlorinator. 

I let the jugs sit out 12-24 hours uncapped then cap and use as needed. 

This lasts me anywhere from a week or 2 depending on my water changes- right now I start to run low within a week due to frequent QT water changes for my four patients along with my resident tank water changes. 

This is likely way cheaper than buying anything that "contains" the extract. Plus I have leaves on hand all the time if I just need to plop one in a QT or tank for "extra"

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea says: I have a smaller scale operation going.  I only have two of the 1-gallon jugs.  Any extra dark water that I have boiled I just put it in jars and stuck it in the fridge until I do a water change and free up one of the 1-gallon jugs again.

 

Also to answer your question about how fast I go through them- I find I go through them- 2 or 3 a week is reasonable to me as the subscription order I get contains 25 leaves. By the time I get my new shipment (ever 2 mos) I still have plenty left over.

[Minanora]

You'll find the most patient and helpful folks on this forum. Welcome to the community!

The water tint isn't that noticable imo. It's only really dark if you want it to be. If it gets too dark, you can change water to lighten it. I add leaves directly to my tanks. In my 2.6g I only use a small piece of a single leaf, in my 5.5 I use about half a leaf, then in my 40, I add two, my 75 gets 3 or 4 depending on how far decayed the old leaves are, I don't like the clutter.

I add tea to my 75 and 40 after each water change. I don't measure things, I just look at it and go "that's about enough" 😂. 

@xXInkedPhoenixXadvice is solid. She's got the Betta magic. An unsung Betta hero, if you will. 😜

All of us have learning stories and have lost fish. We all just keep going, try to improve and learn as we go. You sound like a great fish parent. Don't be afraid to try meds, with photos and parameters we can offer suggestions and support as well. We're have several forum regulars that have saved lots, LOTS, of our fish through sound advice and treatment options.

I may be a bit over prepared... But... My fish med cabinet has, kanamycin (kanaplex), the med trio (most used being ich-x), parazi pro, jungle fungus fizz tabs, methylene blue (just because I breed fish), aquarium salt, Epsom salt, almond leaves and, extra air stones and USB powered air pumps.

[Tam]

@xXInkedPhoenixX Thanks so much! Your advice has been really helpful, I'm definitely saving it all and feel more prepared going forward. I haven't been in the hobby very long, less than a year and a half, and I've had so many questions all this time and didn't know where to turn to, so finding this forum has been a huge relief!

@Minanora Thank you! I'm already finding how kind and helpful people are on here, I actually teared up a bit with how nice the responses were because I was feeling so horrible about losing Lucien. I hope I can become more active going forward, not just when I need help or have a fish emergency. I also really prefer to be over-prepared, that's what I'm going for! Hopefully next time something happens I'll feel more equipped to do something about it and not just watch helplessly. I only have two small tanks but even that feels overwhelming at times, I can't imagine having a 75 gallon! That must be a ton of work. I actually have a beautiful 16 gallon waterbox aquarium that's been sitting empty for several months because I found after my two tanks that a 3rd was too much, but now I'm hoping to get my 16 gallon going in the next few months and move my betta Jupiter over from his 6 gallon, and that in itself feels like a huge undertaking 😆