Would you consider breaking quarantine in this situation?

[dangerflower]

I mentioned this in my tank journal, but I wanted to make a separate post because I could use some guidance with this situation.

I have four sparkling gouramis currently in quarantine in a 5 gallon tub. I got them on October 25th, so they still have a few weeks to go (I was planning on at least a 4 week quarantine). They have already been through a round of the med trio and are currently waiting until it's time to do a second dose of paracleanse. I used a seeded sponge filter in the tank.

Water parameters were fine during med trio week but now I'm starting to see ammonia in the water. It's staying at .25ppm so far. I've been doing 30% water changes pretty much every day but the ammonia isn't going away. I've barely been feeding these poor fish at all because I'm so worried about spiking the ammonia more. I'm assuming my sponge just didn't have a ton of bacteria on it and the bacteria got knocked out by the meds.

I'm also starting to see some aggression between these guys. I'm hoping it won't be an issue once they're in their real home with way more space and hiding places, but they are just constantly squabbling. I'm seeing some evidence of fin damage on at least one of them - probably from nipping. 

I haven't seen any signs of illness on these guys so far. Other than being cranky and just kind of uncomfortable in the quarantine tank, they look healthy.

The tank they will be going into is cycled and ready at this point, and there are no other fish in it yet. Should I consider moving them into it now, given these issues? I'd hate for their health to actually decline in quarantine due to these stressors. But I know it can take a while for illness to show up, and that's why we quarantine for at least 4 weeks. I'd also really like to get them that second paracleanse dose. I'd hate to have to treat my whole 20 gallon later. 

[nabokovfan87]

Are you planning to treat with Expel-P or just Paracleanse?  If an issue pops up are you fine treating the main tank with Ich-X, Paracleanse, and/or Expel-P or is the volume of water too large?

I think you can modify the issue by adding "something" to the container to allow them to break line of sight more.  It might literally just be stacks of sponge or rocks or wood, but something you can clean if need be that suits the QT tank.

In my view, that's how I would handle it, but I totally understand the concern. Seeing ripped fins and the aggression, the go to for me is to change the scape to reset boundaries.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

Considering there’s no other fish in the home tank, you’d essentially just be quarantining them in a bigger tank. They’ve already been through the trio, so you could just watch for signs of illness. 
 

If it was me, and it was between a 5 gallon with potential issues and a 20 gallon that’s empty, I’d move them and continue to keep a sharp eye. 
 

Also, I’ve been on the hunt for a pair of Sparkling Gourami’s and haven’t been able to source them. Kinda jealous!

[modified lung]

I wouldn't worry about 0.25 ammonia too much. Ammonia tests have a range of accuracy above 0.25 ppm. That means anything between 0 and 0.25 will look basically the same on the test. 

[Flumpweesel]

I should probably move them, the point of quarantine is protect your existing fish from anything the new guys have so this doesn't apply. But it is easier and more cost effective to use meds in smaller tanks so that is a fair reason to keep them in the smaller tank.

Have you double checked your tap water sometimes (from what I read here ) that can have small amounts of ammonia so you might have a issue at tap rather than the tank.

For the quarantine tank maybe grab some lucky bamboo to grow out of it and use that ammonia it's pretty easy to remove and pop on standby in a bottle if you need to add salt for any reason

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Seems I always get ammonia when quarantining fish. It’s caused by the meds killing or slowing the bacteria. Water changes with prime do the trick. Test daily and water change daily. If in a course of a specific med, I just dose prime without the water change until that course of treatment completes. Then I resume water changes with prime.

[Pepere]

I have taken to keeping three 10 gallon quarantine tanks running.

I find it not at all uncommon for the cycle to crash with med trio treatment. Everything is fine for the first week while fish are being fasted, and then as soon as I start feeding ammonia and nitrite start climbing.  And given that my tap water chronically contains 1 ppm ammonia, it is a pain to have to do cascading water changes.

Once levels start rising after treatment and I start feeding, I transfer to another quarantine tank and let first tank recover.  And having third tank allows me to keep W batches of quarantine fish, or just have a readily available hospital tank ready at all times.

In your case, I would transfer them to the waiting 20 gallon.  5 is a bit on the small size for 4 sparkling gouramis, and not eating cant be helping with the crankiness.

treating 20 gallons with second paracleanse is not going to be a horrible expense vs the 5 gallon. $1.30 for a packet of Paracleanse…$2.60 vs $0.65.

[Odd Duck]

Add more plants.  I generally quarantine in planted tanks but I keep a few plastic plants on hand so I can QT in bare bottom with plastic plants if necessary.  Stuff the tank with whatever plants you can to break lines of sight.  Give them more hiding places that aren’t dead ends - open ended tubes or caves whether plastic, ceramic, resin, etc.  That should create more comfort and let you not have to treat your display tank.

[dangerflower]

Thanks so much, everyone! This is all really helpful!

My reasoning behind quarantining and medicating these guys even though they are the first fish for the tank was to have a clean slate for the new tank. Cost wise I'm not worried about having to treat the larger volume of water with meds, I'm mostly just concerned about potentially disrupting the newly established cycle.

 

On 11/12/2022 at 2:29 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Seems I always get ammonia when quarantining fish. It’s caused by the meds killing or slowing the bacteria. Water changes with prime do the trick. Test daily and water change daily. If in a course of a specific med, I just dose prime without the water change until that course of treatment completes. Then I resume water changes with prime.

I'm glad it's not just me! I was feeling like I had failed. It's the not being able to change the water during medication that worries me the most, but you've found that prime keeps things safe?

 

On 11/12/2022 at 9:06 AM, Odd Duck said:

Add more plants.  I generally quarantine in planted tanks but I keep a few plastic plants on hand so I can QT in bare bottom with plastic plants if necessary.  Stuff the tank with whatever plants you can to break lines of sight.  Give them more hiding places that aren’t dead ends - open ended tubes or caves whether plastic, ceramic, resin, etc.  That should create more comfort and let you not have to treat your display tank.

I don't currently have space to set up a permanent QT tank with live plants and such, so this is a bare bottom plastic tote with fake plants situation. I do have three silk plants in there, as well as a few catappa leaves that the fish do seem to like hiding under, but adding more seems like a good idea. I think one issue is that they are spending more time at the bottom of the tank than I thought they would, so the fake plants aren't providing cover where the fish are. I think I'll try to look for some hides or shorter silk plants to give them more cover at the bottom and see if that helps them chill out.

 

On 11/12/2022 at 12:01 AM, Flumpweesel said:

I should probably move them, the point of quarantine is protect your existing fish from anything the new guys have so this doesn't apply. But it is easier and more cost effective to use meds in smaller tanks so that is a fair reason to keep them in the smaller tank.

Have you double checked your tap water sometimes (from what I read here ) that can have small amounts of ammonia so you might have a issue at tap rather than the tank.

For the quarantine tank maybe grab some lucky bamboo to grow out of it and use that ammonia it's pretty easy to remove and pop on standby in a bottle if you need to add salt for any reason

It had not even occurred to me to check on my tap water oh no! I've tested it in the past and not seen ammonia but it's been a while. So, I tested the water in the QT tank and my tap water this morning and... yep, there is ammonia in my tap water. I actually got a slightly higher reading in the tap water (looks greener, closer to .5ppm) than in the QT tank (more yellow-green, .25ppm). It's been a day since I did a water change in the QT tank. I also tested the water in my betta's tank as a control to make sure my test hadn't just gone funky, and got a zero reading there. 

I think the plan for now is to get more hides / plants for the QT tank and monitor behavior and water quality for a few more days. If things get worse I'll move them to the home tank.

[Pepere]

On 11/13/2022 at 12:25 PM, dangerflower said:

Cost wise I'm not worried about having to treat the larger volume of water with meds, I'm mostly just concerned about potentially disrupting the newly established cycle.

Understandable, though While full med trio usually knocks down or eliminates my cycle, I have not yet seen the cycle ever affected by Paracleanse alone.

 

On 11/13/2022 at 12:25 PM, dangerflower said:

yep, there is ammonia in my tap water.

It is always worth reaching out to the public water utility when you do find ammonia in the tap.

 

Often times if they come and flush the mains it can go away.  In my case, flushing the mains does not help, sometimes it is a function of location, distance from treatment plant.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/13/2022 at 12:25 PM, dangerflower said:

I'm glad it's not just me! I was feeling like I had failed. It's the not being able to change the water during medication that worries me the most, but you've found that prime keeps things safe?

It’s a bandaid fix; it’s really best to do water changes if you can, but if medicating, I get it. You don’t want to dilute the meds. Prime detoxifies ammonia. When medicating and I have ammonia I dose prime daily because it does wear off in a day or two; it’s just that I’m never sure when it wears off. Regardless of whether the ammonia is toxic or detoxified, you’re going to get an ammonia reading with your test kit.

[Pepere]

On 11/13/2022 at 12:25 PM, dangerflower said:

I'm glad it's not just me! I was feeling like I had failed. It's the not being able to change the water during medication that worries me the most, but you've found that prime keeps things safe?

I have only seen marketing claims that some water conditioners “detoxifies” or “locks up” ammonia.  And these claims are bandied about as Gospel fact by many in the Industry and youtube personalities.  There is no test to prove the Ammonia is indeed locked up or detoxified. The manufacturers admit that the science behind it is “not well understood”.  Now, if you can't describe what happens to detoxify or bind up” and you cant test for it, how can you then turn around and say the effect lasts for 24 hours but can be repeated with the same benefit indefinitely?

 

Suffice it to say I have very low confidence in the claim and would never simply dose with water conditioner expecting it to magically “detoxify or bind up” the ammonia. 

edited to add;

Now doing a water change is empirically proven to lower ammonia, nitrite and nitrates so long as the water you are using is free from them.  And testing the water after the water change will verify  definitively that you did reduce them.  You are not relying on dubious marketing claims with no empirical evidence to prove them.  And you are likely dosing with the same water conditioner anyways to dechlorinate so the manufacturers and retailers shouldn't be losing any money by you doing a water change, and tap water is pretty cheap.

end of edit.

I quarantine in 10 gallon tanks that start off well cycled.  When I get shipped fish they spend about 4-5 days without meds and observed and fed to settle them in.  If I see signs of disease I treat immediately, but if they look fine I let them be.  I also only keep between 25 to50% stocked in quarantine.. low stocking reduces the ammonia concentrations.

Once I start meds the fish are fasted for 4 days with a light meal evening 4 and once every other day until week is up.  With this tack, I find ammonia levels stay low until the end of the week.  I typically find they start increasing once I start feeding them again.  At that point you could do daily water changes, but generally I simply transfer them to another cycled quarantine tank.  Alternatively, you could have another cycled sponge filter in main tank you transfer to quarantine tank after you have done a few water changes to pull meds from the tank.

 

in regards to a spike during quarantine week,  a water change followed by redosing meds to appropriate levels could work as well, but between lightly stocking and fasting I have not perceived the need to myself.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Pepere

[modified lung]

On 11/13/2022 at 5:22 PM, Pepere said:

Now, if you can't describe what happens to detoxify or bind up” and you cant test for it, how can you then turn around and say the effect lasts for 24 hours but can be repeated with the same benefit indefinitely?

By doing toxicology tests with live fish.

[Pepere]

On 11/13/2022 at 10:50 PM, modified lung said:

By doing toxicology tests with live fish

Fair enough.  Are there published studies?

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/12/2022 at 9:06 AM, Odd Duck said:

Add more plants.  I generally quarantine in planted tanks but I keep a few plastic plants on hand so I can QT in bare bottom with plastic plants if necessary.  Stuff the tank with whatever plants you can to break lines of sight.  Give them more hiding places that aren’t dead ends - open ended tubes or caves whether plastic, ceramic, resin, etc.  That should create more comfort and let you not have to treat your display tank.

100%  Especially fast growing plants like moss and floating plants. 

If you ever need to setup a "QT tank" I would encourage you to do the following method in future.  It is a long proven, reliable, effective, and safe way to ensure you have a "cycled" tank ready for fish in moments instead of days or weeks.

1.  Have an established tank setup and ready to go.
2.  Have a container setup that is clean, sterile, and safe for fish QT (10G tank, bucket, tub, etc)
3.  Add a sponge filter and connect it up with your QT specific items.
4.  Go to your established tank and take a handful of substrate, chunks of foam, hardscape, or cycled media and add it to the QT tank.
5.  In your established tank, replace the media / sponge that you took into the QT tank.

By doing that you're about as best as you're going to get without having a dedicated QT system and you can either add a pinch of food to keep the QT system cycled or add the fish.  If you are going to have a lot of fish, then potentially you might need to have multiple QT tanks to spread the load. 

One final note.  If you decide to end QT or move the fish into the tank and then something crops up, you might end up with a situation where you need to then clean your display tank.  Apart from fish safety, health of the animal, and contamination, one of the biggest reasons for QT is to protect the established system from introducing things you don't want.  While your QT setup is going through it's struggles, sometimes the point is simply that your display isn't.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/13/2022 at 8:22 PM, Pepere said:

I have only seen marketing claims that some water conditioners “detoxifies” or “locks up” ammonia.

Cory explains how it works in this video (1:51 - 2:40).

 

Also this is on the Seachem FAQ page:

How long does Prime® stay bound to the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates?

A: Prime® will bind up those compounds for up to 48 hours. If they are still present after that time frame, they are released back into the water, unless Prime® is re-dosed accordingly. Also, if your ammonia or nitrite levels are increasing within a 24-hour period, Prime® can be re-dosed every 48 hours.

Source: https://www.seachem.com/prime.php

[Pepere]

Yep.  Those are claims made.

 

are there any scientific studies backing up the claims?  Any proof?

 

I am not aware of any.  I would love to see the proof that is verifiable and reproducible.

 

until I do see scientifically valid independently verifiable proof I will not be relying on adding dechlorinator alone, but only after doing a water change.  Water changes are proven and testable.

it is sort of confusing to me why water changes are so distasteful that people want to “only add dechlorinator”.

I do not view claims that dechlorinator “locks up, binds or detoxifies” ammonia terribly credible irregardless who makes the claim until I can see verifiable reproducible data that they do.  A video of someone claiming they do is not proof. It is a claim.  If you want to believe it, go ahead, but I will continue with water changes and dechlorinator to remove the chlorine and chloramines.  The treatment of chlorine and chloramies are proven.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Pepere

[Pepere]

Ok, I watched the video in full.

Around 2.28 @Cory states some dechlorinators contain “another  additive in there that is going to bind up the ammonia temporarily” “it will bond chemical to it so it is not in a harmful state”

 

So naturally the question pops in to my mind, what is the “Other additive”. What “chemical is being bonded” and what is the chemical formula of the “bound ammonia”.  When chemical reactions occur they form new molecules usually with a chemical formula.

 

If these claims are true, they should be testable if we know the claim of the other additive that is doing this deed and what the compound is that is created.

 

all “claims” that I have been aware of are similarly vague as this one.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/14/2022 at 10:09 AM, Pepere said:

are there any scientific studies backing up the claims?  Any proof?

Yes, of course. If you are willing to put in the time to research you can find it.  One such study was published in 2020 by Hidetoshi Urakawa who is an Ecology and Environmental Studies professor at Florida Gulf Coast University.  One topic of the study was to determine the benefits and/or ill effects on binding compounds in dechlorinators. The concern was that, as transportation of fish in bags increased, fish were exposed to inevitable ammonia buildup in those bags as the aquarium hobby became more popular.  Not surprising that this study was published during the year of COVID lockdowns which brought in a fair number of new hobbyists.

On 11/14/2022 at 10:09 AM, Pepere said:

it is sort of confusing to me why water changes are so distasteful that people want to “only add dechlorinator”.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that hobbyists find water changes distasteful. Some may. I enjoy them. The discussion above regarded keeping a certain level of meds in a quarantine tank, and how different hobbyists treat ammonia/nitrite spikes when medication kills bacteria.  Some hobbyists are uncomfortable with measuring partial doses of medication, and there is also a concern of the potency of new meds going in vs. the meds that were already in the tank, as the in-tank meds already had some time to degrade.  As well as how med potency factors would affect the fish as well.   

What I love about this forum is that each person brings a different point of view or idea, and that we can all share and learn from each other.  No two tanks are the same - there are different creatures, microflora and microfauna, different substrates, different plants, and different maintenance methods.  I learn something new every day on here. 

On 11/14/2022 at 10:37 AM, Pepere said:

So naturally the question pops in to my mind, what is the “Other additive”.

A few of the additives are listed in this document from Carleton University. https://www3.carleton.ca/fecpl/pdfs/Surgery Handbook - Brown et al 2010.pdf#page=45

Edited November 14, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Pepere]

On 11/14/2022 at 10:42 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

One such study was published in 2020 by Hidetoshi Urakawa who is an Ecology and Environmental Studies professor at Florida Gulf Coast University.  The focus of the study was to determine the benefits and/or ill effects on binding compounds in dechlorinators.

I am having difficulties locating such a study.  I would love to read the paper if you might be able to locate it.

 

On 11/14/2022 at 10:42 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

A few of the additives are listed in this document from Carleton University

The othe radditives are generally listed in the ingredients.  But specifically, which one is claimed to bond to ammonia making it less harmful?

 

I would be happy to discard my skepticism if I could see evidence that the claim is true. I am not stating categorically that it is false, but I surely do not have any confidence in it.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Pepere

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/14/2022 at 10:58 AM, Pepere said:

I am having difficulties locating such a study.  I would love to read the paper if you might be able to locate it.

Here's the citation for reference.

Urakawa, Hidetoshi, and Aaron J. Sipos. "Application of the consortia of nitrifying archaea and bacteria for fish transportation may be beneficial for fish trading and aquaculture." Aquaculture Research 51.8 (2020): 3429-3442

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/14/2022 at 10:58 AM, Pepere said:

But specifically, which one is claimed to bond to ammonia making it less harmful?

You'd have to go into the studies to find the specific name of the chemicals or compounds @Pepere; I don't memorize the terminology - I leave that up to the science nerds, LOL.  🙂   I encourage you to research on your own if you are curious.  It is best to go straight to the source rather than have a middleman attempt to interpret data for you.  Let us know what you find out!  

Edited November 14, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Pepere]

On 11/14/2022 at 12:54 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Here's the citation for reference.

Urakawa, Hidetoshi, and Aaron J. Sipos. "Application of the consortia of nitrifying archaea and bacteria for fish transportation may be beneficial for fish trading and aquaculture." Aquaculture Research 51.8 (2020): 3429-3442

 

This article is discussing adding nitrifying bacteria and Archaea in to bags with fish, not dechlorinator that claim to “temporarily bind or detoxify” ammonia.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/14/2022 at 1:21 PM, Pepere said:

This article is discussing adding nitrifying bacteria and Archaea in to bags with fish, not dechlorinator that claim to “temporarily bind or detoxify” ammonia.

Had you read the whole study or just the abstract & the title?  

Let's not derail @dangerflower's thread any more, as we are going too off topic from what was initially posted.  Again, it's best to research on your own if you are curious about ammonia binding, or perhaps you can start a new thread here on the forum about the specific questions you have so that others can weigh in with their knowledge and experience as well.

I love your curiosity and just remember, at the end of the day, we all want the same result - nice healthy creatures in our aquariums to love and enjoy. ❤️

[Pepere]

I read the abstract.  It was pretty clear as they usually are…

 

in any event I am starting to read the whole article.

 

here is a link to anybody who might wish to read it for free.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341880529_Application_of_the_consortia_of_nitrifying_archaea_and_bacteria_for_fish_transportation_may_be_beneficial_for_fish_trading_and_aquaculture
 

I am right there with you too as to results.  And I gladly change my mind when shown evidence.