Would you consider breaking quarantine in this situation?

[dangerflower]

I mentioned this in my tank journal, but I wanted to make a separate post because I could use some guidance with this situation.

I have four sparkling gouramis currently in quarantine in a 5 gallon tub. I got them on October 25th, so they still have a few weeks to go (I was planning on at least a 4 week quarantine). They have already been through a round of the med trio and are currently waiting until it's time to do a second dose of paracleanse. I used a seeded sponge filter in the tank.

Water parameters were fine during med trio week but now I'm starting to see ammonia in the water. It's staying at .25ppm so far. I've been doing 30% water changes pretty much every day but the ammonia isn't going away. I've barely been feeding these poor fish at all because I'm so worried about spiking the ammonia more. I'm assuming my sponge just didn't have a ton of bacteria on it and the bacteria got knocked out by the meds.

I'm also starting to see some aggression between these guys. I'm hoping it won't be an issue once they're in their real home with way more space and hiding places, but they are just constantly squabbling. I'm seeing some evidence of fin damage on at least one of them - probably from nipping. 

I haven't seen any signs of illness on these guys so far. Other than being cranky and just kind of uncomfortable in the quarantine tank, they look healthy.

The tank they will be going into is cycled and ready at this point, and there are no other fish in it yet. Should I consider moving them into it now, given these issues? I'd hate for their health to actually decline in quarantine due to these stressors. But I know it can take a while for illness to show up, and that's why we quarantine for at least 4 weeks. I'd also really like to get them that second paracleanse dose. I'd hate to have to treat my whole 20 gallon later. 

[nabokovfan87]

Are you planning to treat with Expel-P or just Paracleanse?  If an issue pops up are you fine treating the main tank with Ich-X, Paracleanse, and/or Expel-P or is the volume of water too large?

I think you can modify the issue by adding "something" to the container to allow them to break line of sight more.  It might literally just be stacks of sponge or rocks or wood, but something you can clean if need be that suits the QT tank.

In my view, that's how I would handle it, but I totally understand the concern. Seeing ripped fins and the aggression, the go to for me is to change the scape to reset boundaries.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

Considering there’s no other fish in the home tank, you’d essentially just be quarantining them in a bigger tank. They’ve already been through the trio, so you could just watch for signs of illness. 
 

If it was me, and it was between a 5 gallon with potential issues and a 20 gallon that’s empty, I’d move them and continue to keep a sharp eye. 
 

Also, I’ve been on the hunt for a pair of Sparkling Gourami’s and haven’t been able to source them. Kinda jealous!

[modified lung]

I wouldn't worry about 0.25 ammonia too much. Ammonia tests have a range of accuracy above 0.25 ppm. That means anything between 0 and 0.25 will look basically the same on the test. 

[Flumpweesel]

I should probably move them, the point of quarantine is protect your existing fish from anything the new guys have so this doesn't apply. But it is easier and more cost effective to use meds in smaller tanks so that is a fair reason to keep them in the smaller tank.

Have you double checked your tap water sometimes (from what I read here ) that can have small amounts of ammonia so you might have a issue at tap rather than the tank.

For the quarantine tank maybe grab some lucky bamboo to grow out of it and use that ammonia it's pretty easy to remove and pop on standby in a bottle if you need to add salt for any reason

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Seems I always get ammonia when quarantining fish. It’s caused by the meds killing or slowing the bacteria. Water changes with prime do the trick. Test daily and water change daily. If in a course of a specific med, I just dose prime without the water change until that course of treatment completes. Then I resume water changes with prime.

[Odd Duck]

Add more plants.  I generally quarantine in planted tanks but I keep a few plastic plants on hand so I can QT in bare bottom with plastic plants if necessary.  Stuff the tank with whatever plants you can to break lines of sight.  Give them more hiding places that aren’t dead ends - open ended tubes or caves whether plastic, ceramic, resin, etc.  That should create more comfort and let you not have to treat your display tank.

[dangerflower]

Thanks so much, everyone! This is all really helpful!

My reasoning behind quarantining and medicating these guys even though they are the first fish for the tank was to have a clean slate for the new tank. Cost wise I'm not worried about having to treat the larger volume of water with meds, I'm mostly just concerned about potentially disrupting the newly established cycle.

 

On 11/12/2022 at 2:29 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Seems I always get ammonia when quarantining fish. It’s caused by the meds killing or slowing the bacteria. Water changes with prime do the trick. Test daily and water change daily. If in a course of a specific med, I just dose prime without the water change until that course of treatment completes. Then I resume water changes with prime.

I'm glad it's not just me! I was feeling like I had failed. It's the not being able to change the water during medication that worries me the most, but you've found that prime keeps things safe?

 

On 11/12/2022 at 9:06 AM, Odd Duck said:

Add more plants.  I generally quarantine in planted tanks but I keep a few plastic plants on hand so I can QT in bare bottom with plastic plants if necessary.  Stuff the tank with whatever plants you can to break lines of sight.  Give them more hiding places that aren’t dead ends - open ended tubes or caves whether plastic, ceramic, resin, etc.  That should create more comfort and let you not have to treat your display tank.

I don't currently have space to set up a permanent QT tank with live plants and such, so this is a bare bottom plastic tote with fake plants situation. I do have three silk plants in there, as well as a few catappa leaves that the fish do seem to like hiding under, but adding more seems like a good idea. I think one issue is that they are spending more time at the bottom of the tank than I thought they would, so the fake plants aren't providing cover where the fish are. I think I'll try to look for some hides or shorter silk plants to give them more cover at the bottom and see if that helps them chill out.

 

On 11/12/2022 at 12:01 AM, Flumpweesel said:

I should probably move them, the point of quarantine is protect your existing fish from anything the new guys have so this doesn't apply. But it is easier and more cost effective to use meds in smaller tanks so that is a fair reason to keep them in the smaller tank.

Have you double checked your tap water sometimes (from what I read here ) that can have small amounts of ammonia so you might have a issue at tap rather than the tank.

For the quarantine tank maybe grab some lucky bamboo to grow out of it and use that ammonia it's pretty easy to remove and pop on standby in a bottle if you need to add salt for any reason

It had not even occurred to me to check on my tap water oh no! I've tested it in the past and not seen ammonia but it's been a while. So, I tested the water in the QT tank and my tap water this morning and... yep, there is ammonia in my tap water. I actually got a slightly higher reading in the tap water (looks greener, closer to .5ppm) than in the QT tank (more yellow-green, .25ppm). It's been a day since I did a water change in the QT tank. I also tested the water in my betta's tank as a control to make sure my test hadn't just gone funky, and got a zero reading there. 

I think the plan for now is to get more hides / plants for the QT tank and monitor behavior and water quality for a few more days. If things get worse I'll move them to the home tank.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/13/2022 at 12:25 PM, dangerflower said:

I'm glad it's not just me! I was feeling like I had failed. It's the not being able to change the water during medication that worries me the most, but you've found that prime keeps things safe?

It’s a bandaid fix; it’s really best to do water changes if you can, but if medicating, I get it. You don’t want to dilute the meds. Prime detoxifies ammonia. When medicating and I have ammonia I dose prime daily because it does wear off in a day or two; it’s just that I’m never sure when it wears off. Regardless of whether the ammonia is toxic or detoxified, you’re going to get an ammonia reading with your test kit.

[modified lung]

On 11/13/2022 at 5:22 PM, Pepere said:

Now, if you can't describe what happens to detoxify or bind up” and you cant test for it, how can you then turn around and say the effect lasts for 24 hours but can be repeated with the same benefit indefinitely?

By doing toxicology tests with live fish.

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/12/2022 at 9:06 AM, Odd Duck said:

Add more plants.  I generally quarantine in planted tanks but I keep a few plastic plants on hand so I can QT in bare bottom with plastic plants if necessary.  Stuff the tank with whatever plants you can to break lines of sight.  Give them more hiding places that aren’t dead ends - open ended tubes or caves whether plastic, ceramic, resin, etc.  That should create more comfort and let you not have to treat your display tank.

100%  Especially fast growing plants like moss and floating plants. 

If you ever need to setup a "QT tank" I would encourage you to do the following method in future.  It is a long proven, reliable, effective, and safe way to ensure you have a "cycled" tank ready for fish in moments instead of days or weeks.

1.  Have an established tank setup and ready to go.
2.  Have a container setup that is clean, sterile, and safe for fish QT (10G tank, bucket, tub, etc)
3.  Add a sponge filter and connect it up with your QT specific items.
4.  Go to your established tank and take a handful of substrate, chunks of foam, hardscape, or cycled media and add it to the QT tank.
5.  In your established tank, replace the media / sponge that you took into the QT tank.

By doing that you're about as best as you're going to get without having a dedicated QT system and you can either add a pinch of food to keep the QT system cycled or add the fish.  If you are going to have a lot of fish, then potentially you might need to have multiple QT tanks to spread the load. 

One final note.  If you decide to end QT or move the fish into the tank and then something crops up, you might end up with a situation where you need to then clean your display tank.  Apart from fish safety, health of the animal, and contamination, one of the biggest reasons for QT is to protect the established system from introducing things you don't want.  While your QT setup is going through it's struggles, sometimes the point is simply that your display isn't.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/13/2022 at 8:22 PM, Pepere said:

I have only seen marketing claims that some water conditioners “detoxifies” or “locks up” ammonia.

Cory explains how it works in this video (1:51 - 2:40).

 

Also this is on the Seachem FAQ page:

How long does Prime® stay bound to the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates?

A: Prime® will bind up those compounds for up to 48 hours. If they are still present after that time frame, they are released back into the water, unless Prime® is re-dosed accordingly. Also, if your ammonia or nitrite levels are increasing within a 24-hour period, Prime® can be re-dosed every 48 hours.

Source: https://www.seachem.com/prime.php

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/14/2022 at 10:09 AM, Pepere said:

are there any scientific studies backing up the claims?  Any proof?

Yes, of course. If you are willing to put in the time to research you can find it.  One such study was published in 2020 by Hidetoshi Urakawa who is an Ecology and Environmental Studies professor at Florida Gulf Coast University.  One topic of the study was to determine the benefits and/or ill effects on binding compounds in dechlorinators. The concern was that, as transportation of fish in bags increased, fish were exposed to inevitable ammonia buildup in those bags as the aquarium hobby became more popular.  Not surprising that this study was published during the year of COVID lockdowns which brought in a fair number of new hobbyists.

On 11/14/2022 at 10:09 AM, Pepere said:

it is sort of confusing to me why water changes are so distasteful that people want to “only add dechlorinator”.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that hobbyists find water changes distasteful. Some may. I enjoy them. The discussion above regarded keeping a certain level of meds in a quarantine tank, and how different hobbyists treat ammonia/nitrite spikes when medication kills bacteria.  Some hobbyists are uncomfortable with measuring partial doses of medication, and there is also a concern of the potency of new meds going in vs. the meds that were already in the tank, as the in-tank meds already had some time to degrade.  As well as how med potency factors would affect the fish as well.   

What I love about this forum is that each person brings a different point of view or idea, and that we can all share and learn from each other.  No two tanks are the same - there are different creatures, microflora and microfauna, different substrates, different plants, and different maintenance methods.  I learn something new every day on here. 

On 11/14/2022 at 10:37 AM, Pepere said:

So naturally the question pops in to my mind, what is the “Other additive”.

A few of the additives are listed in this document from Carleton University. https://www3.carleton.ca/fecpl/pdfs/Surgery Handbook - Brown et al 2010.pdf#page=45

Edited November 14, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/14/2022 at 10:58 AM, Pepere said:

I am having difficulties locating such a study.  I would love to read the paper if you might be able to locate it.

Here's the citation for reference.

Urakawa, Hidetoshi, and Aaron J. Sipos. "Application of the consortia of nitrifying archaea and bacteria for fish transportation may be beneficial for fish trading and aquaculture." Aquaculture Research 51.8 (2020): 3429-3442

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/14/2022 at 10:58 AM, Pepere said:

But specifically, which one is claimed to bond to ammonia making it less harmful?

You'd have to go into the studies to find the specific name of the chemicals or compounds @Pepere; I don't memorize the terminology - I leave that up to the science nerds, LOL.  🙂   I encourage you to research on your own if you are curious.  It is best to go straight to the source rather than have a middleman attempt to interpret data for you.  Let us know what you find out!  

Edited November 14, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/14/2022 at 1:21 PM, Pepere said:

This article is discussing adding nitrifying bacteria and Archaea in to bags with fish, not dechlorinator that claim to “temporarily bind or detoxify” ammonia.

Had you read the whole study or just the abstract & the title?  

Let's not derail @dangerflower's thread any more, as we are going too off topic from what was initially posted.  Again, it's best to research on your own if you are curious about ammonia binding, or perhaps you can start a new thread here on the forum about the specific questions you have so that others can weigh in with their knowledge and experience as well.

I love your curiosity and just remember, at the end of the day, we all want the same result - nice healthy creatures in our aquariums to love and enjoy. ❤️

[modified lung]

On 11/13/2022 at 9:13 PM, Pepere said:

Fair enough.  Are there published studies?

If you go to Google Scholar and search "Seachem prime ammonia" or "dechlorinator ammonia" you'll find tons of studies that say in the methods section that Prime or other dechlorinators were used and ~"confirmed to lower free ammonia to safe levels". Most of them mention it beyond that.

Here's one related to shipping that used Prime as one of the variables. They confirmed Prime at 20x recommended dose neutralizes 4.5 ppm total ammonia. They used such a high dose to make sure free ammonia levels didn't change as pH changed. You have to download the PDF (link near bottom) to read about how they used Prime, it's not mentioned in the abstract: 

https://par.nsf.gov/biblio/10299259

Two that specifically tested ClorAM-X (another dechlorinator/ammonia neutralizer) to get more dense, longer rotifer cultures:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/A05-063.1

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.1749-7345.2008.00201.x

 

[MattyM]

Whichever way you go, this is why I always keep a bottle of FritzZyme 7 on hand (I also like to dose when adding new fish to an un-seasoned tank). 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/14/2022 at 4:14 PM, MattyM said:

Whichever way you go, this is why I always keep a bottle of FritzZyme 7 on hand (I also like to dose when adding new fish to an un-seasoned tank). 

I like to use that when changing filter media as well. I don’t change all the media at once. But I use Fritz Zyme 7 sometimes to give the new media a running start.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[dangerflower]

On 11/14/2022 at 7:09 AM, Pepere said:

it is sort of confusing to me why water changes are so distasteful that people want to “only add dechlorinator”.

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea already spoke to this really eloquently but I would just like to reiterate that the discussion here is not about using prime as a substitute for water changes, but rather whether or not it is effective at mitigating small ammonia spikes in situations where a water change would interfere with the medication of fish. I don't think anyone is trying to be lazy here.

In case anyone is curious, the quarentine tank tested zero for ammonia today! So the bacteria appear to be rebounding, which is a huge relief. My tap water is still testing at .5ppm. I bought a few jugs of water to have on hand in case I need to do more emergency water changes. Also added some aquarium salt to hopefully stave off any infections on those torn fins.

I put a bunch more fake plants into the tank and the extra cover seems to have calmed them down a lot! Still seeing some scuffles, but overall they seem less stressed.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

@dangerflower the fish looks like it's doing well.  It's a cute little guy (or gal).  I'm glad parameters are stabilizing for you.

On 11/12/2022 at 12:06 PM, Odd Duck said:

Add more plants.  I generally quarantine in planted tanks but I keep a few plastic plants on hand so I can QT in bare bottom with plastic plants if necessary.

I do this too, even if I'm quarantining a single fish, it seems the plastic plants make the fish feel more secure.  I put a little decoration in there too that the fish can hide in if it wants to.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Mmiller2001]

Going forward, your can avoid killing your BB by target feeding your meds with Seachem Focus. 

So my modified trio is Ick X, paracleanse/General cure in water per trio directions.Seachem Kanaplex/Focus fed per directions. I then hit with fenbendazole at week 3 start.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Mmiller2001
Corrected med name

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/15/2022 at 3:00 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Going forward, your can avoid killing your BB by target feeding your meds with Seachem Focus. 

So my modified trio is Ick X, paracleanse/General cure in water per trio directions.Seachem Kanaplex/Focus fed per directions. I then hit with levamisol at week 3 start.

One of the meds is not absorbed well orally. I can’t remember if it’s metroplex or Kanaplex. @Odd Duck?

[Odd Duck]

On 11/15/2022 at 2:00 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Going forward, your can avoid killing your BB by target feeding your meds with Seachem Focus. 

So my modified trio is Ick X, paracleanse/General cure in water per trio directions.Seachem Kanaplex/Focus fed per directions. I then hit with levamisol at week 3 start.

Kanaplex is not absorbed orally significantly in any species as far as I know.  There’s no point in putting it into food.

The praziquantal in Paracleanse isn’t absorbed, either, but it supposed to work directly in the gut, so when it is ingested, it still does the job.  The metronidazole in Paracleanse is absorbed orally (an effective antibiotic for certain types of infections), but also works directly in the gut for intestinal parasites or in the water for certain external parasites.  General Cure is the same ingredients in the same ratio as Paracleanse, so there’s really not much point in using both (just a general FYI, I can see @Mmiller2001, that you mean you use one or the other).  The levamisole (Expel-P) is also not absorbed into the blood stream to any degree but is also meant to work directly in the gut so ingestion still does the job.

[Mmiller2001]

On 11/15/2022 at 8:37 PM, Odd Duck said:

Kanaplex is not absorbed orally significantly in any species as far as I know.  There’s no point in putting it into food.

The praziquantal in Paracleanse isn’t absorbed, either, but it supposed to work directly in the gut, so when it is ingested, it still does the job.  The metronidazole in Paracleanse is absorbed orally (an effective antibiotic for certain types of infections), but also works directly in the gut for intestinal parasites or in the water for certain external parasites.  General Cure is the same ingredients in the same ratio as Paracleanse, so there’s really not much point in using both (just a general FYI, I can see @Mmiller2001, that you mean you use one or the other).  The levamisole (Expel-P) is also not absorbed into the blood stream to any degree but is also meant to work directly in the gut so ingestion still does the job.

It was either or.

On 11/15/2022 at 8:37 PM, Odd Duck said:

Kanaplex is not absorbed orally significantly in any species as far as I know.  There’s no point in putting it into food

They market it as an effective antibiotic when orally administered, sneaky they are.