Methelyne Blue and Eggs . . . How Long?

[tolstoy21]

This is my first attempt at hatching eggs outside of a mother's care so I need some guidance,.

How long does one typically let the eggs sit in methylene blue before clearing that from the water?

[Snjchris]

I leave them soaking in it until the eggs hatch and I get free swimmers (for rams). 

[tolstoy21]

On 11/10/2022 at 1:39 PM, Snjchris said:

I leave them soaking in it until the eggs hatch and I get free swimmers (for rams). 

Thanks!

I was wondering if it was ok to leave them in up till hatching.

[Snjchris]

Not sure about your setup but if you are worried about water quality, it helps to remove the unfertilized and fungus eggs daily. 

[tolstoy21]

On 11/10/2022 at 1:42 PM, Snjchris said:

Not sure about your setup but if you are worried about water quality, it helps to remove the unfertilized and fungus eggs daily. 

Yeah I was considering that. My water quality should be high. I've just had this mother Zebra Acara eat the last 6 batches of eggs she's laid. 

I'm trying to determine if she eats them cause they fungus over, if they are unfertilized, or just because she doesn't know any better.

I'd like to spend the next few days observing what happens to the eggs outside of her care. And, of course, get some fry in the process.

Edited November 10, 2022 by tolstoy21

[AllFishNoBrakes]

Agreed with @Snjchris. I leave it until fry are free swimming and then start to water change it out. 

[DiscusLover]

On 11/10/2022 at 10:31 AM, tolstoy21 said:

This is my first attempt at hatching eggs outside of a mother's care so I need some guidance,.

How long does one typically let the eggs sit in methylene blue before clearing that from the water?

You keep the meth blue until the fry are free swimming. After that you do small water changes.

Edited November 11, 2022 by DiscusLover

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/10/2022 at 10:31 AM, tolstoy21 said:

This is my first attempt at hatching eggs outside of a mother's care so I need some guidance,.

How long does one typically let the eggs sit in methylene blue before clearing that from the water?

dean said he does his until he sees fry and then gets it out of the water.

On 11/10/2022 at 10:47 AM, tolstoy21 said:

I'm trying to determine if she eats them cause they fungus over, if they are unfertilized, or just because she doesn't know any better.

Sometimes they do it because they see food and don't process it as their own.  Sometimes they do it out of fear (like a mouth brooder trying to keep them in, but they aren't one).  So having low stress surroundings is key for some female fish.

That being said, sometimes it just takes a lot of messing it up until the parents learn to care for it themselves.  I'll mention him again, but Dean went over this a lot when he was showing how he does his angels.  He talks about the struggle Cory had with the parent's caring for the fry and then discussing the topic above.  Hopefully that helps.

I'm so excited for you!  I just got my first eggs this week too.  Ironic because I could've sworn (or had the impression) you've been breeding and doing the big fish rack stuff for a while and you always have cool stuff!

[tolstoy21]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:51 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

That being said, sometimes it just takes a lot of messing it up until the parents learn to care for it themselves.  I'll mention him again, but Dean went over this a lot when he was showing how he does his angels.  He talks about the struggle Cory had with the parent's caring for the fry and then discussing the topic above.  Hopefully that helps.

Yeah this was the pair's 6th attempt (that I know of), so I figured "Hey give me a turn, would ya!"

Honestly, I'm just trying to determine if the eggs are viable when laid.

On 11/11/2022 at 5:51 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I'm so excited for you!  I just got my first eggs this week too.  Ironic because I could've sworn (or had the impression) you've been breeding and doing the big fish rack stuff for a while and you always have cool stuff!

I've been breeding for maybe 3+ years now. I've had the zebra acara for about a year. However, this is my first time pulling eggs from a dwarf cichlid. Typically I let the fry become free swimming and then remove one or both of the parents, depending on the situation.

So not my first eggs. But my first attempt at pulling eggs and keeping them in meth blue. Like I've said in the past . . . I'm not afraid to admit that I have A LOT to learn still.

What did you have spawn? It is always exciting to see eggs or fry!

Edited November 11, 2022 by tolstoy21

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/11/2022 at 3:07 PM, tolstoy21 said:

What did you have spawn? It is always exciting to see eggs or fry!

I tossed it in my journal (link in sig) it's my second spawn (first since joining the forums here) of my Black Corydoras.  They like winder I guess! LOL.

Ask me how I know they like cold water more than warm.... cause when I first got them I literally had no decent information on parameters and just knew they were rare, assuming wild caught.

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/11/2022 at 3:07 PM, tolstoy21 said:

Honestly, I'm just trying to determine if the eggs are viable when laid.

What do they look like!!?!??

[anewbie]

MB is fairly poisonous so i'd remove it before the eggs hatch IF you are confident they are close to hatching. The first time you might not have any clue but after a few tries you will have a good feel for when the eggs will hatch and can time it pretty good. Obviously the frys can survive in a weak enough solution with MB but it isn't doing them much good.

[tolstoy21]

@anewbie So I'm definitely seeing wigglers. In your experience should I start changing out the water? They are in a breeder box so I can begin the process of dripping out the meth blue water for tank water.

@nabokovfan87  They look like below!

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/11/2022 at 4:19 PM, anewbie said:

MB is fairly poisonous

Can you elaborate on this? I am trying to figure if I should add some or not.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

@tolstoy21 In my experience, I’ve tried changing the MB out as soon as I’ve had wigglers, and I’ve also tried waiting until they’re free swimming and haven’t seen any detrimental effects from waiting. My thought process is that eggs become wrigglers at different times, so from first wiggler to last wiggler could be a whole day, and same with transitioning to free swimming, so I want the MB to stay in the water to ensure everything that can hatch does hatch. I also use a very small amount of MB (literally 2 drops in a 2 gallon tank). The first couple times I tried artificially hatching myself I was scared the MB would do something harmful if I waited, but I don’t believe that to be the case. On my latest batch of Angels I waited until they were free swimming, and those guys are now about dime size and crushing it. 
 

@nabokovfan87 The eggs in your tumbler look great. At this point, I’d just leave them be and see what you get. But also that’s just me. I’m a big fan of “what happens if I try” and seeing how it compares to the result of my last experiment. 
 

Just my 2 cents. Hope it goes well for the both of you!

Edited November 12, 2022 by AllFishNoBrakes

[Adam Swarbrick]

I agree @AllFishNoBrakes . A lot of people swear adding meth blue to be harmful. That’s not yet been my experience… The amount we are using is  absolutely tiny when diluted out. Personally I leave it in until I’m sure nothing else will hatch then I’ll slowly water change it out.

Looking forward to seeing some fry 👍 Good Luck

 

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

@tolstoy21I change Methelyne Blue out over 2 days post hatching personally with no issues noted. If I follow the reccomended dosing it is no issue for me to leave it in there while they majority hatch.

In my opinion if its not suffocating the eggs that implies its not harming the fry in the egg and would have no real difference in fry once hatched. I just change it out with my water changes of the hatching container.

I will also put in a small cube of polyfilter to monitor its color change rate as it absorbs substances. That is my visual for water quality in the container between water changes. 

This about my level of MB concentration for the first day post hatch

I have read about some MB positive impact on oxygen carrying capacity in fish hemoglobin before that probably doesnt hurt for a day or two either. Just like everything moderation is the key. 

If you want to get deep in the weeds on it this peer study on how it works is interesting: 

https://sfamjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/lam.12534

One lab with the short version on how to use MB

https://www.macsenlab.com/blog/methylene-blues-uses-in-fish-aquaculture/#:~:text=Methylene Blue is a safe,overdose the fish with it.

[tolstoy21]

On 11/12/2022 at 9:27 AM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

I will also put in a small cube of polyfilter to monitor its color change rate as it absorbs substances. That is my visual for water quality in the container between water changes. 

Thanks. That's a good tip. 

I've heard that Invancara Adoketa (aka Zebra Acara) fry are super sensitive to water quality, which is one of the challenges to breeding them (other than keeping the Ph way down in the 4s).

Thanks too for the rest of the info, links, etc.  Much appreciated. I plan on reading through it today.

[anewbie]

On 11/11/2022 at 8:09 PM, tolstoy21 said:

@anewbie So I'm definitely seeing wigglers. In your experience should I start changing out the water? They are in a breeder box so I can begin the process of dripping out the meth blue water for tank water.

@nabokovfan87  They look like below!

 

I would; the MB was only used to help prevent fungus on the eggs.

On 11/12/2022 at 9:04 AM, tolstoy21 said:

Thanks. That's a good tip. 

I've heard that Invancara Adoketa (aka Zebra Acara) fry are super sensitive to water quality, which is one of the challenges to breeding them (other than keeping the Ph way down in the 4s).

Thanks too for the rest of the info, links, etc.  Much appreciated. I plan on reading through it today.

They are also very vicious fishes so tank mates are difficult...

On 11/11/2022 at 8:11 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Can you elaborate on this? I am trying to figure if I should add some or not.

Here is a controlled study:

https://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jestft/papers/vol10-issue4/Version-3/C1004030916.pdf

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/12/2022 at 10:59 AM, anewbie said:

Here is a controlled study:

https://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jestft/papers/vol10-issue4/Version-3/C1004030916.pdf

Definitely interesting.  Thank you for sharing.

Here's the bit from the end of the study:
 

Quote

V. Conclusion
The result obtained in this investigation is a clear indicator that methylene blue is toxic to fish at
concentrations higher than 100mg/l and it could lead to high mortality of fish in the culture system when they
are treated with overdose of methylene blue.

From the study itself, they used 67 mg/l as the minimum dosage.  The bottle I have specifies a concentration of 3 PPM.  Often I see people using 1-2 drops and not a very high concentration at all.  The math is a bit wonky, but 3 vs. 67 ppm is a massive difference in dosage.  I can't speak to how viable that is compared to what a hobbyist would use and see, but it's very clear that this stuff isn't safe in very high concentrations.

@tolstoy21 The study also specifies that prior to a certain amount of time, they didn't observe issues with the fry.  Let me grab the exact number. (see sheet 3, but removal within 24 hours you should be ok, especially at low dose)

Edited November 12, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[tolstoy21]

On 11/12/2022 at 1:59 PM, anewbie said:

They are also very vicious fishes so tank mates are difficult...

Hmmm . . .  as far as what I've observed and read, they are super duper peaceful. In fact, I put a TON of neocaradina culls in the tank, thinking they would eat them.  But there were so many shrimp darting around, the Acara actually got scared and cowered in their caves until I reduced the number or shrimp!

As far as the methylene blue dosage and duration goes . . . . .  I guess I'll find out through the good-old-fashioned scientific method of trial-and-error!

At least now I've gotten further than I have in the past with these fish, which is getting to the wiggler stage.

Every little step forward is progress even if I don't succeed this go round.

These fish have spawned before (many times) so they will spawn again. I have process of triggering them pretty ironed out at this point.

Thanks anyone and everyone who has contributed to this thread.

Edited November 12, 2022 by tolstoy21

[anewbie]

On 11/12/2022 at 2:06 PM, tolstoy21 said:

Hmmm . . .  as far as what I've observed and read, they are super duper peaceful. In fact, I put a TON of neocaradina culls in the tank, thinking they would eat them.  But there were so many shrimp darting around, the Acara actually got scared and cowered in their caves until I reduced the number or shrimp!

As far as the methylene blue dosage and duration goes . . . . .  I guess I'll find out through the good-old-fashioned scientific method of trial-and-error!

At least now I've gotten further than I have in the past with these fish, which is getting to the wiggler stage.

Every little step forward is progress even if I don't succeed this go round.

These fish have spawned before (many times) so they will spawn again. I have process of triggering them pretty ironed out at this point.

Thanks anyone and everyone who has contributed to this thread.

it comes down to territory; they are extremely aggressive to anything that enter their territory - stuff that stay out of their layer are probably more than safe but small fishes that enter their territory will be treated unkindly (cory and dwarf cichild); at least that is my experience. I honestly don't know what to think of your story regarding the shrimps though i always though their water was too pure for shrimps since they seem to require near blackwater conditions to breed. 

[tolstoy21]

On 11/12/2022 at 3:18 PM, anewbie said:

I honestly don't know what to think of your story regarding the shrimps though i always though their water was too pure for shrimps since they seem to require near blackwater conditions to breed. 

Well I'm not sure how long the neo's would have lasted on their own in that environment. They were meant as food more not tank mates, so their welfare was not part of the equation. They did last some days though. 

I'll admit I don't have much experience with them in a 'community' tank. They just seem peaceful to me, and the literature I see around the internet seems to suggest the same. But, as we know, the internet isn't always right.

Have you been successful in breeding Ivancara Adoketa?

[anewbie]

On 11/12/2022 at 3:46 PM, tolstoy21 said:

Well I'm not sure how long the neo's would have lasted on their own in that environment. They were meant as food more not tank mates, so their welfare was not part of the equation. They did last some days though. 

I'll admit I don't have much experience with them in a 'community' tank. They just seem peaceful to me, and the literature I see around the internet seems to suggest the same. But, as we know, the internet isn't always right.

Have you been successful in breeding Ivancara Adoketa?

No that has to wait till i have ro water. I don't think i'm allowed to post links to other forums here but if you google "ivancara adoketa aggression" you can see some other folks first hand experience.

 

I'll have ro water after i move and then i'll look into that project when i have time.

[tolstoy21]

On 11/12/2022 at 8:06 PM, anewbie said:

No that has to wait till i have ro water. I don't think i'm allowed to post links to other forums here but if you google "ivancara adoketa aggression" you can see some other folks first hand experience.

 

Yeah I did find threads about this on Apistogramma.com today after reading your original reply.  So far, I've only had this pair by themselves in their own dedicated tank. The male and female get along great and never ever show aggression towards one another and often hang out side-by-side in their cave for long periods of time. They spawn quite routinely. But as you know, getting the eggs to develop into free-swimming fry is my current challenge.  Definitely my current favorite fish. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by tolstoy21