Non-Binary Empire Gudgeon??

[GioFish]

Hey! First time writer, long time reader. So I have an empire gudgeon who's over 8 years old. She's the sole survivor of a nuked tank that went under when I had some health issues and couldn't keep up. She's survived all this time with terrible water conditions, minimal care and no company. She's amazing. I finally got my health and funds in order to give her a better life in her golden years, so I started a new, bigger aquarium from scratch, put in lots of plants and driftwood, and got her some peacock gudgeon friends (couldn't find empires anywhere to save my life). She didn't engage with the peacocks much though, so I took a chance and found a place selling sexed empires online and ordered a pair (thinking 1 male and 2 females would be good). They arrived, and though I knew they wouldn't be as big as my Catherine the Great, I was still surprised with how small they were. They were bagged separately, though, and the one marked male was clearly larger and had the nucal bump and is clearly a male. The one marked female looked exactly like a miniature Catherine. Same body shape, markings, coloring. BUT (and thanks for reading up to here!) After some days her fins started popping with color to rival the male! Same bright orange and same white lines along the edge. My question is, does the coloring mean it's definitely a male, not a female, or can the female empire sometimes have bright colors too? Everybody's getting along nicely now and they all like to follow each other around and stuff. I'm not really trying to breed them(if it happens by accident, cool), I'm just trying to make a happy tank for everybody, so I was trying to avoid having 2 males (with the peacocks also I only have 1 male, but with 3 females- he likes to take them in dates in a rolled up Franz Stoffels Sword leaf 😆).

Edited November 2, 2022 by GioFish
Typos

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 11/2/2022 at 6:53 PM, GioFish said:

Hey! First time writer, long time reader. So I have an empire gudgeon who's over 8 years old. She's the sole survivor of a nuked tank that went under when I had some health issues and couldn't keep up. She's survived all this time with terrible water conditions, minimal care and no company. She's amazing. I finally got my health and funds in order to give her a better life in her golden years, so I started a new, bigger aquarium from scratch, put in lots of plants and driftwood, and got her some peacock gudgeon friends (couldn't find empires anywhere to save my life). She didn't engage with the peacocks much though, so I took a chance and found a place selling sexed empires online and ordered a pair (thinking 1 male and 2 females would be good). They arrived, and though I knew they wouldn't be as big as my Catherine the Great, I was still surprised with how small they were. They were bagged separately, though, and the one marked male was clearly larger and had the nucal bump and is clearly a male. The one marked female looked exactly like a miniature Catherine. Same body shape, markings, coloring. BUT (and thanks for reading up to here!) After some days her fins started popping with color to rival the male! Same bright orange and same white lines along the edge. My question is, does the coloring mean it's definitely a male, not a female, or can the female empire sometimes have bright colors too? Everybody's getting along nicely now and they all like to follow each other around and stuff. I'm not really trying to breed them(if it happens by accident, cool), I'm just trying to make a happy tank for everybody, so I was trying to avoid having 2 males (with the peacocks also I only have 1 male, but with 3 females- he likes to take them in dates in a rolled up Franz Stoffels Sword leaf 😆).

I have seen a friends empire gobies have lots of little colour splotches on their fins...maybe the colours weren't apparent when Catherine was being kept in the 'nuked tank'? Welcome to the forum btw!

[GioFish]

On 11/3/2022 at 2:42 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

I have seen a friends empire gobies have lots of little colour splotches on their fins...maybe the colours weren't apparent when Catherine was being kept in the 'nuked tank'? Welcome to the forum btw!

Thanks! Catherine has a bit of rust tinge on her fins, but it's never been the full bright orange and white I'm seeing on both the new guys. From what I'd seen and read prior, her lack of coloration is typical for a female, and I'd had the understanding that it was only the males who ever got really colorful, but if that's not accurate, it's happy news!

[PineSong]

I'm sorry I don't know anything about gudgeons so cannot speak to your question about coloration, but wanted to chime in that I think it's great you've had Catherine for so long and have given her an enriched new environment!

[gardenman]

In general, in the fish world (especially with African Cichlids) a dominant male will have the brightest colors. Subordinate males will dim down to avoid drawing his attention, but they're still males. It's possible both of your new fish could be males with the subdominant one now feeling more comfortable and starting to let his true colors show. And since they're smaller than your older fish it's possible the one was just slower to develop. Time will tell. 

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 11/4/2022 at 4:03 PM, gardenman said:

In general, in the fish world (especially with African Cichlids) a dominant male will have the brightest colors. Subordinate males will dim down to avoid drawing his attention, but they're still males. It's possible both of your new fish could be males with the subdominant one now feeling more comfortable and starting to let his true colors show. And since they're smaller than your older fish it's possible the one was just slower to develop. Time will tell. 

I agree partially with @gardenman....although if they spawn, I expect you shall know whos who!

[TheSwissAquarist]

Heres what the web says: