Is gravel best for plants?

[Corbidorbidoodle]

I've been struggling to grow plants that the internet says should grow fine for me.

I really prefer the look of sand. I use mostly pool filter sand. I watch a lot of people like MD fish tanks grow great plants in sand. But he uses lots of expensive fortified substrate underneath it.

I'm super cheap though, so I never buy that stuff. But, I saw Corey talk about gravel being way better for plants in a video the other day. And finally it clicked where my stuff isn't growing. I thought people said sand was bad cuz of the roots couldn't grow in it. But I think I've realized gravels better cuz the nutrients can find its way to the roots.

What are your experiences with internet substrate? Do you guys find your plants grow a lot better and gravel? Is anybody growing great plants in inert sand? I have a few things to go gangbusters on sand, like Val. But a lot of stuff struggles unless there's a root tab right underneath it.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Corbidorbidoodle

[DiscusLover]

On 9/30/2022 at 9:42 AM, Corbidorbidoodle said:

I've been struggling to grow plants that the internet says should grow fine for me.

I really prefer the look of sand. I use mostly pool filter sand. I watch a lot of people like MD fish tanks grow great plants in sand. But he uses lots of expensive fortified substrate underneath it.

I'm super cheap though, so I never buy that stuff. But, I saw Corey talk about gravel being way better for plants in a video the other day. And finally it clicked where my stuff isn't growing. I thought people said sand was bad cuz of the roots couldn't grow in it. But I think I've realized gravels better cuz the nutrients can find its way to the roots.

What are your experiences with internet substrate? Do you guys find your plants grow a lot better and gravel? Is anybody growing great plants in inert sand? I have a few things to go gangbusters on sand, like Val. But a lot of stuff struggles unless there's a root tab right underneath it.

You can grow plants in almost any substrate, I think the only issue people have is with putting enough nutrients into the substrate. I've grown amazon swords (which need a lot of nutrients from their roots) in gravel and sand with no issue at all. I think you just have to make sure that you have enough root tabs in ur gravel. They also will take time to grow and you will know if your plant is running out of nutrients if the leaves turn brown. 

[JettsPapa]

Most plants do just fine for me in sand (which is the only substrate I've ever used).  I occasionally add in a few root tabs, but they seem to get enough nutrients from the water.  If you want to use an enriched substrate, I tried a budget rich soil in the last tank I set up.  I started with about 1" of dry cow manure at the bottom (I have cows, so it was free, but you can buy it in the garden department in home improvement stores).  I put 1" of potting soil on top of that, and then about 2" of pool filter sand.

I haven't had it going long enough yet to see how it works, but so far it seems to be okay.  I had bubbles come up through the sand for weeks after adding water, but they didn't seem to bother the guppies.

[PotatoFish]

You also want to make sure that the plants you are trying to grow in substrate should be planted in substrate.

Java fern and anubias are rhizome plants and should not have their rhizomes (the thick stem-looking thing) under the substrate.

What plants do you have?

[JoeQ]

On 9/30/2022 at 12:42 PM, Corbidorbidoodle said:

I've been struggling to grow plants that the internet says should grow fine for me.

I really prefer the look of sand. I use mostly pool filter sand. I watch a lot of people like MD fish tanks grow great plants in sand. But he uses lots of expensive fortified substrate underneath it.

I'm super cheap though, so I never buy that stuff. But, I saw Corey talk about gravel being way better for plants in a video the other day. And finally it clicked where my stuff isn't growing. I thought people said sand was bad cuz of the roots couldn't grow in it. But I think I've realized gravels better cuz the nutrients can find its way to the roots.

What are your experiences with internet substrate? Do you guys find your plants grow a lot better and gravel? Is anybody growing great plants in inert sand? I have a few things to go gangbusters on sand, like Val. But a lot of stuff struggles unless there's a root tab right underneath it.

You should not take any single internet source as Truth, IMO they are just thoughts & ideas from random voices. Some voices carry more weight than others but in the case of a random search, unless its from a proven reputable source, it's just noise. They are something to consider but they should  not dictate the course of your hobby, your truth. What should dictate it is your experience (which takes years of trial and error to gain, it doesn't come from a 5min Google search or from a post on a forum). Lately,  in my expirence,  I'm starting to think substrate has less to do with Aqua Horticulture (unless we are talking dirted tanks), your biggest consideration should be water colum fertilization. Have you considered maybe your other plants aren't doing well because your val is sucking up a particular nutrient needed by the other plants that's limiting their growth?

Maybe your fertilization schedule is too lean?

Edit; The point of my post was (which I forgot to get to was) the best substrate is the one that best suits you. The one that gives you the best results/enjoyment with the amount of time you are willing to put into the hobby.

Edited October 2, 2022 by JoeQ
Added closing statement

[Corbidorbidoodle]

Thanks for the tips, everybody. I guess it really comes down to learning. Ugh.

I've got a pretty good handle on epiphytes, it's things like S. Repens or Scarlet Temple that're giving me trouble. I can grow Lotus and Amazon Swords and Water Wisteria all day, but my Bocopa is leggy and 60% leafless, and my Scarlet Temple just doesn't die and get's covered in algae.

I usually just kinda try stuff, and if it works, great, if it doesn't, I try something else. So I'm trying to get a little more intentional about what I'm doing so it's less of a money filled shotgun approach.

[Patrick_G]

On 10/5/2022 at 10:01 AM, Corbidorbidoodle said:

I usually just kinda try stuff, and if it works, great, if it doesn't, I try something else. So I'm trying to get a little more intentional about what I'm doing so it's less of a money filled shotgun approach.

This is pretty standard for horticulturists of all kinds, terrestrial and aquatic. I try lots of different plants and then concentrate on the ones that grow well for me. If there’s a plant that you’re really excited about but having trouble with then it’s time to do some research and get more intentional with your fertilizer and husbandry. 
 

The plants you mention having trouble with should grow well in sand, but they all need a decent amount of light. “leggy” Bacopa is a dead giveaway that it’s not getting enough light at the lower part of the plant. It might also be time to do some trimming of the tops and replanting. The same goes for the AR. Read through @gjcarew’s journal for some great tips on trimming and husbandry. 

[Corbidorbidoodle]

Part of what I thought might be happening is the sand eventually gets dirty and clogged up and then even the root tabs can't get to the roots. Thought I'd try more pea gravel to see if it allows for transportation better.

And I'm using pool filter sand, not, like, play sand. But I love trying different stuff, so we'll see how it goes.

[JettsPapa]

On 10/5/2022 at 12:01 PM, Corbidorbidoodle said:

. . .  but my Bocopa is leggy and 60% leafless, and my Scarlet Temple just doesn't die and get's covered in algae.

I usually just kinda try stuff, and if it works, great, if it doesn't, I try something else. So I'm trying to get a little more intentional about what I'm doing so it's less of a money filled shotgun approach.

That happens to mine occasionally in the 65 gallon tank.  I cut it off down low and it will sprout new growth.  I remove the leafless portion of the part I cut off and toss it, then stick the rest in the substrate to make a new plant.

[Tanked]

I prefer gravel. Because substrate is only one component in successful plant growth, I don't know if there is a best substrate for plants. There are pros and cons to all of them. Even the expensive soils require additional supplements or replacement eventually.  My project tank has a pool sand substrate, and the others are pea gravel.  I have used dirty lava rock, harvested from a garden path, and new lava rock from the grill store.  They all grow plants. If there is enough water to dissolve the root tab, the roots will find it.

The lava rock experiment was ended because busting it down to small uniform sizes for appearances is laborious, and buying uniformly sized Bonsai soil is too expensive.

 

[The Arthritic Aquarist]

I also use gravel.  I've tended to have decent luck with plants, especially Val, Sag, Swords, Crypts and the like.  I also have epiphytes like Java Fern and Anubias, so substrate not an issue there.  I use root tabs periodically.  Seems to work.

[MattyM]

I use gravel in both my tanks and what really turned my plant game around was giving the plants a CO2 burst. First I tried a siesta - cutting the lights for a couple hours mid-day to let the CO2 levels build up again. Not bad - def helped. 

I homebrewed for 15 years so I had all these CO2 tanks lying around, so I was like, why not? I started passive CO2, using the inverted bottle trick (up-ending a plastic water bottle and filling it with CO2 every day/night and letting it dissolve into the water). Results - even better! But filling the bottles got tedious - so I bit the bullet and got a proper regular and diffusers for my tanks. I only shoot for 10ppm CO2 max when lights are on, about a third of what the serious aqua scapers do. Now I can grow plants that I never could before and everything looks super healthy. Plants like scarlet temple def like a CO2 boost. Pearl weed always died on me before, now it looks fantastic. 

I only bring this up b/c for ME, I found CO2 was my limiting factor in plant health. I don't think sand or gravel matters - but I'm working on a tank with sand next, so I'll get to put that to the test. I also use root tabs, and light Easy Green dosing (I'm finding for my hard water, smaller doses work better - otherwise algae will take it up before the plants can). Good luck 👍

[Tanked]

On 10/11/2022 at 12:22 PM, MattyM said:

I homebrewed for 15 years so I had all these CO2 tanks lying around, so I was like, why not? I started passive CO2, using the inverted bottle trick (up-ending a plastic water bottle and filling it with CO2 every day/night and letting it dissolve into the water). Results - even better! But filling the bottles got tedious -

I'm glad to read about someone using the inverted bottle method successfully.  I'm not really interested in a CO2 set up, but I've seen it done on a single YT video, and I'm curious. I also know a homebrewer who offered some of his outdated equipment.

[Corbidorbidoodle]

I actually use the Ista passive CO2 kits on several tanks when needed. I feel it's a marked improvement. Certainly not like injection, but better than nothing.

[Patrick_G]

Like @MattyM I found co2 to be a limiting factor in a couple of my tanks. I’m injecting at about 1/2-1/3 of maximum based on advice from some seriously good aquatic horticulturists. Most of my plants are pretty basic and that level of injection seems to push them from doing ok to doing good. 
I’ll add that I had two nano tanks that are thriving with no co2, heater or filter. 

High tech 75 with minimal co2

side by side 3 gallon no-tech

[JoeQ]

On 10/13/2022 at 6:25 PM, Patrick_G said:

Like @MattyM I found co2 to be a limiting factor in a couple of my tanks. I’m injecting at about 1/2-1/3 of maximum based on advice from some seriously good aquatic horticulturists. Most of my plants are pretty basic and that level of injection seems to push them from doing ok to doing good. 
I’ll add that I had two nano tanks that are thriving with no co2, heater or filter. 

High tech 75 with minimal co2

side by side 3 gallon no-tech

How many bubbles per sec?

[Patrick_G]

On 10/13/2022 at 3:29 PM, JoeQ said:

How many bubbles per sec?

About 2 I think. At some point I’ll probably turn it up a bit, I just added some Eriocaulon “Vietnam”, and it might want more co2. 

[JoeQ]

On 10/13/2022 at 6:34 PM, Patrick_G said:

About 2 I think. At some point I’ll probably turn it up a bit, I just added some Eriocaulon “Vietnam”, and it might want more co2. 

So im guessing 1bps in a 36g is still quite low then? I got my Acoop regulator a few weeks ago but Im still waiting for my birthday for the gifted c02 tank. But then again, my money is on being gifted a new pair of mittens and a pack of used underwear......... 

[Patrick_G]

On 10/13/2022 at 3:42 PM, JoeQ said:

So im guessing 1bps in a 36g is still quite low then? I got my Acoop regulator a few weeks ago but Im still waiting for my birthday for the gifted c02 tank. But then again, my money is on being gifted a new pair of mittens and a pack of used underwear......... 

yeah, that’s low, and good for us noobs who might be nervous about gassing out our fish!

[JoeQ]

On 10/13/2022 at 6:50 PM, Patrick_G said:

yeah, that’s low, and good for us noobs who might be nervous about gassing out our fish!

That's probably my biggest fear, im pretty sure in a few months ill be consistently waking up in a cold sweat and making sure the co2 is off and my bubbler is on! 🤣

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/30/2022 at 9:42 AM, Corbidorbidoodle said:

I've been struggling to grow plants that the internet says should grow fine for me.

I really prefer the look of sand. I use mostly pool filter sand. I watch a lot of people like MD fish tanks grow great plants in sand. But he uses lots of expensive fortified substrate underneath it.

I'm super cheap though, so I never buy that stuff. But, I saw Corey talk about gravel being way better for plants in a video the other day. And finally it clicked where my stuff isn't growing. I thought people said sand was bad cuz of the roots couldn't grow in it. But I think I've realized gravels better cuz the nutrients can find its way to the roots.

What are your experiences with internet substrate? Do you guys find your plants grow a lot better and gravel? Is anybody growing great plants in inert sand? I have a few things to go gangbusters on sand, like Val. But a lot of stuff struggles unless there's a root tab right underneath it.

 I feel like I could write an essay on this topic!  I feel for you, and I've been there.  I think one of your best starting places will be this video and this talk.  This is similar to the mindset of "be the fish" and it scratches the surface to start the conversation with success.  Have I had some as a result...?  Well. let's talk about that.
 

Bentley has a ton of videos on the topic of "success with plants" and a lot on substrate as well.  Just things to look at if you want to dive deeper.

Gravel is generally "easy" to plant with, but I often find myself struggling with fine or smaller plants to keep them in place.  There are finer pore size gravels like Seachem Flourite and even finer size with the Flourite sand versions.  I don't think any of these are incorrect, especially if you decide to use it as a cap.  The weight of the gravel is the advantage here compared to any other substrates. That added heft makes it a little bit easier to keep the plants in place if you have bottom dwellers.  Needing to use root tabs often is the downside, if you want to avoid that, just cap some aqua soil.

Planted substrates / soils: They have a lot of resources for root based feedings and will do well for a variety of plants. Something like this is fantastic for large plants. Again, smaller plants will have a tendency to get moved around easily and will be difficult to plant due to the pore size of the substrate medium.  Having longer roots will definitely help to keep things planted and anchored, which is where stuff like carpeting plants do really well.  They are anchored in multiple locations and that in itself lets plants stay in place. 

Sand / Dirted tanks:  I will lump these together because this is all about pore size and not really a matter of nutrients.  If you have organic soil, you have a very fine substrate.  If you have sand, you can have a variety of sizes of particles, but they generally impact well and hold plants in place easily.  One of the big advantages here is that it can be extremely easy to feel the roots, move plants, and to use root tabs.  Especially with sand, the consistency in water is really easy to disturb and it works a bit similar in principle to quicksand, literally, when you can let the substrate grab on and then adjust things as you need to.  Fish can swim around and the substrate can hold things in place if the plants have developed roots.  If you do want to have more nutrients in your tank, you can use sand as a cap, but you definitely need to have a good thickness of sand (over 2.5" usually) which leads to a very deep substrate in most tanks.  The aquasoil underneath will tend to act like an UGF and all the waste will stick underneath that top layer of impacted sand.

Stem plants work well in literally any scenario.
Epiphyte plants as well can do well in any scenario.
Carpeting plants will tend to do "ok" in sand, but should theoretically do better when used as a cap or in a tank that has constant uses of root tabs.
Swords, buce, and other plants like these will do better with the aquasoil style setups because they do want to feed through root tabs.  For more on this I'll tag a video below that highlighted for me the use case for certain plants for root tabs and for aquasoils.
 

 

[JoeQ]

Thought I'd post this here, it is the results of an experiment by mj aquascaping that started around the time of your original post.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by JoeQ