Softened Water - what to do??? ANY Advice???

[Spencer Heaton]

Hi Everyone,

I was forced to move a month or so ago and the new house has a water softener and filtration system that includes a dechlorinater and a membrane filter similar to an RO system.

I had a plumber install a new sink for me with the cold source taken from before the softener/filter system and the hot water from the hotwater tank which unfortunately gets its source from the softener before it is heated.

I have been mixing hot and cold water and doing my water changes as normal and for the last few weeks and I have lost some fish (mostly my apistos) and a few chain loaches. (I have 12 tanks)

Most of the fish including the Rams seem to be doing ok but a couple of other apisto have turned dark over the last few weeks (different species than the ones that died).

Also not a lot of my plants seem to be doing well and I had a huge jungle of Val which has slowing just died off.

So, I just did some water test and here are my results:

Mix of hot and cold:

0ppm Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite

PH of approx 7.6 to 7.8

GH of 17 drops so ~200-400ppm

KH of 17 drops so ~200-400ppm

TDS of ~480ppm

Just HOT water (softened):

0ppm Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite

PH of approx 7.2 to 7.4

GH of 1 drop so ~0-50ppm

KH of 17 drops so ~200-400ppm

TDS of ~680ppm

Just COLD water (city):

0ppm Ammonia, nitrate, nitrite

PH of approx 7.8 to 8.0

GH of 22 drops so ~200-400ppm

KH of 17 drops so ~200-400ppm

TDS of ~300ppm

I know that the majority of the TDS is the the sodium from the softener. I also believe this may be the source of the issue with a lot of my live plant issues.

However, I am also wondering if I should be adding minerals back to the water (using one of those trace products) since it looks like some or most of the TDS is KH related so I am thinking there is not enough trace elements left in the water after it has been filtered through the system even though I am mixing with the city water.

Also l am thinking I may need add an RODI unit to the mix but it would need to be connected to the city water (cold) I assume so that will not help remove all the sodium from the mix either.

Any advise anyone can give me would be great!!!! I will attach some pics to help illustrate what I am referring to.

 

Thanks,

Spencer

[Flumpweesel]

Just stop mixing, softeners use things that fish like a lot less than a bit of cold water. You could always let the water change water stand to get to room temp if you wish.

Or use the kettle to warn some up to take the chill off.

If it's practical rain water could be considered.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Flumpweesel
Correction

[TOtrees]

On 9/24/2022 at 3:12 AM, Flumpweesel said:

Just stop mixing [the softened water]

Agree. Suggestions above are good, here are a few more:

Do you have room for a reservoir for water change water? Say a garbage bin or something? For smaller water changes, adding new water that is room temp (or even tap temp) shouldn’t perturb the fish too much. You can use a calculator at this site to figure final temp of mixing two different volumes of two different temps. https://rechneronline.de/chemie-rechner/mix-temperatures.php
You can also figure out how much volume of heated water (of known temp) is needed to bring your change water to a desired temp. So you might only need to heat (eg boil, in kettle) a few quarts/cups whatever to get your change water to the desired temp range. 
It will also let you know in advance how much a straight cold change of x volume will change your tank temp. Anything less than 5F shift over a few minutes should be fine. 
If the reservoir option is workable, you could drop a heater in there, set to the temp you want. 
So there are many ways to get the water temp you want without using your softened hot water, or figure out if using cold/room temp water is okay. 

[flyingcow]

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about temperature as much, but 17 degrees hardness is a LOT for South American fish. Most fish adapt, but that's a huge adaptation. 

[lefty o]

id bet the TDS isnt as much salt as you think. water softeners add very trace amounts of salt. stick with regular plain water softener salt for it  though. the bags of salt labeled with iron removers etc can add things you dont want in your water.

[Wrencher_Scott]

I see you have a carbon filter. Do you add de chlore anyway? If not I would at least test for chlorine. 

[Spencer Heaton]

On 9/24/2022 at 3:12 AM, Flumpweesel said:

Just stop mixing, softeners use things that fish like a lot less than a bit of cold water. You could always let the water change water stand to get to room temp if you wish.

Or use the kettle to warn some up to take the chill off.

If it's practical rain water could be considered.

Thanks Flumpweesel, given I have 12 tanks that is a lot of water to just let stands or a lot of kettle runs. May need to look at getting some large bins and a few heaters maybe to just use the city water

On 9/24/2022 at 7:49 AM, TOtrees said:

Agree. Suggestions above are good, here are a few more:

Do you have room for a reservoir for water change water? Say a garbage bin or something? For smaller water changes, adding new water that is room temp (or even tap temp) shouldn’t perturb the fish too much. You can use a calculator at this site to figure final temp of mixing two different volumes of two different temps. https://rechneronline.de/chemie-rechner/mix-temperatures.php
You can also figure out how much volume of heated water (of known temp) is needed to bring your change water to a desired temp. So you might only need to heat (eg boil, in kettle) a few quarts/cups whatever to get your change water to the desired temp range. 
It will also let you know in advance how much a straight cold change of x volume will change your tank temp. Anything less than 5F shift over a few minutes should be fine. 
If the reservoir option is workable, you could drop a heater in there, set to the temp you want. 
So there are many ways to get the water temp you want without using your softened hot water, or figure out if using cold/room temp water is okay. 

Thanks TOtrees, yes Bin option with heaters is workable and a very good idea!!!!

On 9/24/2022 at 8:16 AM, flyingcow said:

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about temperature as much, but 17 degrees hardness is a LOT for South American fish. Most fish adapt, but that's a huge adaptation. 

Thanks flyingcow, I have not had to consider this before given my tap water was very good in comparison to here. Maybe it is time to look at an RO or RO/DI unit for my planted tanks and SA Cichlids

On 9/24/2022 at 10:40 AM, lefty o said:

id bet the TDS isnt as much salt as you think. water softeners add very trace amounts of salt. stick with regular plain water softener salt for it  though. the bags of salt labeled with iron removers etc can add things you dont want in your water.

Thanks left o, if that is the case - might be time to consider RO or RO/Di unit then

Edited September 28, 2022 by Spencer Heaton

[Spencer Heaton]

On 9/25/2022 at 2:08 PM, Wrencher_Scott said:

I see you have a carbon filter. Do you add de chlore anyway? If not I would at least test for chlorine. 

Thanks Wrencher_Scott, yes I always add Prime anyway as I am sure the mix with city water has some Chlorine or Chloramines in it

[flyingcow]

On 9/28/2022 at 2:31 PM, Spencer Heaton said:

Thanks flyingcow, I have not had to consider this before given my tap water was very good in comparison to here. Maybe it is time to look at an RO or RO/DI unit for my planted tanks and SA Cichlids

 

I use RO/DI due to some weirdness in my well water. It is quite a bit of work to get set up and running smooth (not so much the equipment, more so dialing in the logistics and processes i.e. not using a python). But once you figure out how you're gonna handle it, it isn't bad at all! I use Seachem Equilibrium, Alkaline Buffer, and Acid Buffer in mine to remineralize. The results are a little higher pH in the tank than the Seachem chart says, but I'm getting the same thing consistently with every batch, and for me 7.5 is a lot better than 8.8. 

My next big project is to skid build it and semi automate it. It'll be fun! ...right?

[Spencer Heaton]

So I have been doing some research on RO and RO/DI units. I wanted to try a saltwater tank anyway so may invest in an RO/DI unit but I have some questions.

It looks like RO water is fine for Freshwater tanks so long as you re-mineralize it. However, some people say you can also use RO/DI water the same way while others say RO/DI is missing the buffers that RO water still has?

Does anyone know more about the differences and which one is better for Freshwater tanks?

Edited September 28, 2022 by Spencer Heaton

[Spencer Heaton]

On 9/28/2022 at 2:41 PM, flyingcow said:

I use RO/DI due to some weirdness in my well water. It is quite a bit of work to get set up and running smooth (not so much the equipment, more so dialing in the logistics and processes i.e. not using a python). But once you figure out how you're gonna handle it, it isn't bad at all! I use Seachem Equilibrium, Alkaline Buffer, and Acid Buffer in mine to remineralize. The results are a little higher pH in the tank than the Seachem chart says, but I'm getting the same thing consistently with every batch, and for me 7.5 is a lot better than 8.8. 

My next big project is to skid build it and semi automate it. It'll be fun! ...right?

Thanks flyingcow, so do you both Alkaline Buffer, and Acid Buffer because you use RO/Di versus just RO or is this for other reasons?  I have read in a lot of posts you only need to use Seachem Equilibrium with straight RO water as it still has some buffering ability. I can cut off from the DI unit if needed for my freshwater tanks if I need to but if not (i.e. they both needs the same pre-treatment before using them with fish/plants) then I wont.

[jwcarlson]

Your water (without anything done to it) is very similar to mine.  I noticed some issues when mixing to get the right temp.  I eventually went straight cold and I just age and preheat everything.  Mainly for discus, but I am also setup to do the same for my smaller tanks.  One thing to check would be pH swing fresh out of the tap and aerated for 24 hours.  Mine swings from 7 to about 8.2-8.3, so it must have quite a bit of dissolved CO2 in it, I would guess.

In any event, I would avoid the "softened" water, which is most times mislabeled as it is probably an ion exchange unit.  I know some people say it's not a problem, but I'm not convinced.

[Spencer Heaton]

On 9/28/2022 at 2:49 PM, jwcarlson said:

Your water (without anything done to it) is very similar to mine.  I noticed some issues when mixing to get the right temp.  I eventually went straight cold and I just age and preheat everything.  Mainly for discus, but I am also setup to do the same for my smaller tanks.  One thing to check would be pH swing fresh out of the tap and aerated for 24 hours.  Mine swings from 7 to about 8.2-8.3, so it must have quite a bit of dissolved CO2 in it, I would guess.

In any event, I would avoid the "softened" water, which is most times mislabeled as it is probably an ion exchange unit.  I know some people say it's not a problem, but I'm not convinced.

Thanks jwcarlson - mine right out of the tap is 8 but have not let it sit and retested a day or so later - will try that and advise if different

[flyingcow]

On 9/28/2022 at 2:48 PM, Spencer Heaton said:

Thanks flyingcow, so do you both Alkaline Buffer, and Acid Buffer because you use RO/Di versus just RO or is this for other reasons?  I have read in a lot of posts you only need to use Seachem Equilibrium with straight RO water as it still has some buffering ability. I can cut off from the DI unit if needed for my freshwater tanks if I need to but if not (i.e. they both needs the same pre-treatment before using them with fish/plants) then I wont.

That's a big variable. straight RO is unlikely to have much buffering capacity, but with a crappy RO unit like most of us can buy, there might be a little bit. A new membrane would have just about zero. I wouldn't count on it unless it was highly repeatable. Alkaline and Acid buffers do a good job of making repeatable results when you make up batches of water, and they aren't very expensive or time consuming if you're already adding equilibrium. 

[jwcarlson]

On 9/24/2022 at 9:40 AM, lefty o said:

id bet the TDS isnt as much salt as you think. water softeners add very trace amounts of salt. stick with regular plain water softener salt for it  though. the bags of salt labeled with iron removers etc can add things you dont want in your water.

There's not much salt from a "salt" standpoint, but from an ion standpoint the exchange units add about two sodium ions for every exchanged ion (from my understanding).  My TDS readings bear that out (softener water way higher).  But I'm not entirely sure why I should care about TDS so that's the last time I measured it.  

[Spencer Heaton]

On 9/28/2022 at 2:58 PM, flyingcow said:

That's a big variable. straight RO is unlikely to have much buffering capacity, but with a crappy RO unit like most of us can buy, there might be a little bit. A new membrane would have just about zero. I wouldn't count on it unless it was highly repeatable. Alkaline and Acid buffers do a good job of making repeatable results when you make up batches of water, and they aren't very expensive or time consuming if you're already adding equilibrium. 

Thanks flyingcow - so really RO/DI is closer to pure H2O then RO but assume no real difference - do you use both buffers to balance off each other for PH ?

[flyingcow]

On 9/28/2022 at 3:00 PM, Spencer Heaton said:

Thanks flyingcow - so really RO/DI is closer to pure H2O then RO but assume no real difference - do you use both buffers to balance off each other for PH ?

yeah RODI will get you a little closer to pure, the difference is really in dissolved ions (sodium calcium etc). Those will pass through an RO, but not a DI. Higher molecular weight stuff won't make it through the RO. 

I use both buffers to manage pH of the water going in so it isn't too high. It works pretty well. My pH is always a little higher than planned, but it stays at 7.5 rock solid in the tank. I was shooting for 7, but my measurements are real easy for 5 gallons (2g Alkaline, 1g Acid, 4g Equilibrium) so it's hard to make a mistake and easy to repeat and get 7.5.

[Spencer Heaton]

On 9/28/2022 at 3:14 PM, flyingcow said:

yeah RODI will get you a little closer to pure, the difference is really in dissolved ions (sodium calcium etc). Those will pass through an RO, but not a DI. Higher molecular weight stuff won't make it through the RO. 

I use both buffers to manage pH of the water going in so it isn't too high. It works pretty well. My pH is always a little higher than planned, but it stays at 7.5 rock solid in the tank. I was shooting for 7, but my measurements are real easy for 5 gallons (2g Alkaline, 1g Acid, 4g Equilibrium) so it's hard to make a mistake and easy to repeat and get 7.5.

thanks flyingcow - I will order some and play around until I get repeatable results!!!