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Acclimation Question


Kilrkitty08
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I have a chasing PH Question, I have a 75gl set and ready to fill, however, the fish I have a 30gl tote waiting to be moved are in a lower PH than my tap probably 6.5 going to an 8 because I don't need to use RO for any of these fish (live bearers, silver dollars, guppies and common pleco).  How much water should I replace with tap to acclimate them in the tote and over what amount of time?  Or should I cut it with RO and/or rain water and eventually change it to 100% tap with water changes?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!  

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On 9/13/2022 at 10:48 AM, Kilrkitty08 said:

I have a chasing PH Question, I have a 75gl set and ready to fill, however, the fish I have a 30gl tote waiting to be moved are in a lower PH than my tap probably 6.5 going to an 8 because I don't need to use RO for any of these fish (live bearers, silver dollars, guppies and common pleco).  How much water should I replace with tap to acclimate them in the tote and over what amount of time?  Or should I cut it with RO and/or rain water and eventually change it to 100% tap with water changes?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!  

I've always believed that ph is something that takes a long time for fish to adjust to. So no matter what you do today I don't imagine it'll be that necessary or impactful. I come from a place where my fish store's water is almost always very high in ph and mine is around 6.8-7.4 since I use RODI water and mix stuff in. I've never had a problem with just floating for 40 minutes and throwing them in personally. Temperature difference is the one thing that really causes observable shock and harm. 

It's your fish and hobby though, so ultimately do what you're willing to do and think is right!

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acclimation to PH in my opinion isn't really important fish routinely experience relatively large PH swings in the wild and in most planted tanks even more so with CO2 injection (and not planted tanks to a lesser degree) and it doesn't seem to matter as long as it stays in the region the fish can handle.

the real killer is a different in calcium magnum salt etcetera thing that will effect their osmosis.

my water comes out of my tap at around a 8 ph within hours it drops to 6.5 or so no issue even with 90% water changes because it's just a PH change everything else is the same.20161003_123504.jpg.11c6906465b78517b742e1e39d5b94e4.jpg

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They should be fine as long as other parameters are reasonably close.  If you’re extra concerned about it, or other parameters may also be off, then do 25% daily water changes in the tote and tank for 3-4 days before you put them in the tank so they match up better and you should be fine.

Do you have biofiltration ready in the new tank or will biofiltration move with the fish?  The pH will NOT be the problem if you don’t have biofiltration ready in the new tank.  I’m sorry @Kilrkitty08if you already know this, please don’t take offense, but I don’t know your experience level so I’m bringing up the very basic stuff.

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No worries @Odd DuckTHank you for your advice 👍 I have their canister filter that ran the old tank running on the tote to keep the bacteria alive and will move it over and run it on the tank before moving the fish over.  Temperature will match and hardness of course is going to be higher in the tank and nitrates lower but ph is the largest change that my test strips can show me.  

Thank you @face and @gannon for your advice as well I feel much better about moving everyone over 👍

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On 9/13/2022 at 8:48 AM, Kilrkitty08 said:

I have a chasing PH Question, I have a 75gl set and ready to fill, however, the fish I have a 30gl tote waiting to be moved are in a lower PH than my tap probably 6.5 going to an 8 because I don't need to use RO for any of these fish (live bearers, silver dollars, guppies and common pleco).  How much water should I replace with tap to acclimate them in the tote and over what amount of time?  Or should I cut it with RO and/or rain water and eventually change it to 100% tap with water changes?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!  

No need, fish in the wild swim though different pH all the time (and temps). Algae, plants, O2 levels, CO2 levels, temps change and along with it pH. 

 

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On 9/13/2022 at 6:04 PM, Wrencher_Scott said:

No need, fish in the wild swim though different pH all the time (and temps). Algae, plants, O2 levels, CO2 levels, temps change and along with it pH. 

 

While this absolutely is true, they have some degree of choice if the sudden changes don’t agree with them.  In the tank, they have no choice and if too many parameters are off, it can send them into a spiral, sometimes literally.  Mostly they deal with it just fine, but sometimes they don’t.  It’s always good to have parameters reasonably close if possible, and there’s no reason not to try to match up parameters a little with small water changes to reduce any stress on the fish.

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On 9/13/2022 at 6:44 PM, Odd Duck said:

While this absolutely is true, they have some degree of choice if the sudden changes don’t agree with them.  In the tank, they have no choice and if too many parameters are off, it can send them into a spiral, sometimes literally.  Mostly they deal with it just fine, but sometimes they don’t.  It’s always good to have parameters reasonably close if possible, and there’s no reason not to try to match up parameters a little with small water changes to reduce any stress on the fish.

Sure, why not I guess. My point is that these things are just not as important as most like to think. Have you ever seen a fish go into a spiral from temp or pH change? Not me.

Some people make this hobby way harder than need be.  

Edited by Wrencher_Scott
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On 9/14/2022 at 1:21 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

Have you ever seen a fish go into a spiral from temp or pH change?

Yes unfortunately I have and it is not pretty. Ph and temp shock are a very real thing. The suddenness of it happening and inability to escape as @Odd Duck stated the drastic fast swing vs gradual change they swim through in nature makes it very lethal. Small gradual changes are something fish can easily adapt to so not worrisome.  

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On 9/14/2022 at 12:21 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

Some people make this hobby way harder than need be.

We all have our things that make the hobby (read as obsession) harder than necessary, often without any improvement. And sometimes resulting in a net detriment.  
 

as hobbyist we need to be careful not to express opinion as fact.  

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Back to your original acclimation question: Is your concern about the volume difference bw the tote and the tank? If you transfer all the water from the tote when you move the fish, you'll still only have a half full tank, so you'll be adding the same volume again of tap water, right? Is that what you're worried about, the 50% water change on moving day? 

Your options literally span the entire range bw the 50% change, and changing them to tap beforehand, including everything in between. You're in the driver's seat. 

I do agree with comments above that temp is the greater concern, so do make sure that it doesn't change too much when you do the move. Bear in mind, if you're doing a 50% "water change" when you move them over, the final temp will land halfway bw the temp in the tote and the temp of the water you add. So if the tote is 75, and the added water is 70, you're only shifting the final temp to 72.5, which is well within their tolerance. 

If I'm understanding your concern, I would do a handful of changes in the tote to bring the parameters closer to your tap water before the move. Is it absolutely necessary? I don't think so. Could they handle the move if you keep the tote water as it is? Most likely (probably no issues but there are no guarantees in this world, or this hobby - all we can do is try to understand risk, and make decisions that work for each of us). So if replacing the tote water with tap over time is easy and you're willing, go for it. If you're unable, don't sweat it. 

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On 9/14/2022 at 4:06 AM, Guppysnail said:

Yes unfortunately I have and it is not pretty. Ph and temp shock are a very real thing. The suddenness of it happening and inability to escape as @Odd Duck stated the drastic fast swing vs gradual change they swim through in nature makes it very lethal. Small gradual changes are something fish can easily adapt to so not worrisome.  

interesting, so what temp and/or pH did they go from then to when you saw this? It must have been a VERY big difference huh?

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On 9/14/2022 at 12:12 PM, Wrencher_Scott said:

interesting, so what temp and/or pH did they go from then to when you saw this? It must have been a VERY big difference huh?

The shipping bag was mildly warm. I’m guessing ph was low as they usually get that way in bags. The bag tore when removing it from the box so fish were plopped directly into the tank at 74 (edit typo)degrees 7.8 ph. I lost 4/5 in 24 hours. Their behavior became erratic and disoriented.  The fish in the bag next to it in the box were temp and ph drip acclimated and were 100% fine. 

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On 9/14/2022 at 9:19 AM, Guppysnail said:

The shipping bag was mildly warm. I’m guessing ph was low as they usually get that way in bags. The bag tore when removing it from the box so fish were plopped directly into the tank at 74 (edit typo)degrees 7.8 ph. I lost 4/5 in 24 hours. Their behavior became erratic and disoriented.  The fish in the bag next to it in the box were temp and ph drip acclimated and were 100% fine. 

There is a saying when it comes to science. Correlation is not causation. 

There are studies on temp and pH with fish. The changes have to be huge to cause any effect. 

Now I would not do that on purpose to fish, heck, I even try to get my temp as close to the tank as possible when I change water. 

Anyway, these things are just not as important as we all have been told over the years. 

Funny, I looked into temperature a while back. I found a study that found varying the temp on the fish actually made them live longer. My guess is because it's like that in nature, which makes perfect sense. We have all been taught that temp must be stable and it just isn't true. 

 

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 @Wrencher_Scott My main concern is sudden changes vs the gradual changes that wild fish typically see.  Brief changes are tolerated well like a wild fish bolting to the warmer surface water to gulp food or dashing into shallow water to escape predation.  There isn’t going to be a sudden body temp change with that and minimal pH or mineral/osmolarity change with that.  More gradual parameter changes are not an issue as a fish can make minor metabolic adjustments as needed.

I 100% agree that most minor parameter changes can be easily handled by healthy fish.  The concern is always for there being several minor changes at once or any marked changes.  If you add in the potential for a fish being stressed or having hidden illness, you are then adding complicating factors that could detriment the fish.  Have I plopped fish directly from one tank to another without checking parameters first?  Absolutely!  Did they survive?  Yep.  Mostly with no apparent adverse effect.  Is it smart to do it that way?  We all know it isn’t.

Not too long ago I had a local guy deliver 10 fish to me and as we stood on my front porch I watched them die in the bag just minutes after he arrived.  His son noticed one wasn’t doing well just before they arrived.  The”sick” fish was still moving by the time they got to my door but others were keeling over as we started to talk about payment.  The rest went from swimming to floating lifelessly as we spoke for no more than 5 minutes.  Before I could get them in the tank, 8/10 were dead in the bag and the other 2 died within minutes.

Their bag temp was completely appropriate (only 2 degrees warmer than the tank) and I dropped them as fast as I could since they were clearly going toxic in the bag.  I figured it was their only chance to get them out of the bag alive.  I dropped them all immediately once I confirmed temp since it was possible they could have had ammonia toxicosis and they will look dead from it but can sometimes survive if it’s not too bad.  Pretty clearly these fish were not healthy and tipped over their species limit for what they could tolerate in the bag.  I didn’t test the bag because it was obviously something catastrophic was happening before they got to me and the seller didn’t charge me anything for them.  I suspect this seller received the fish (newbie trying to be a wholesaler) and left them in the bag for at least 24 hours after he got them, then brought them to me.  Hard telling how long they had been in the bag.  Very small species so should have been a very low bioload in the bag.

OP asked if there were concerns on transferring the fish directly and asked for more information and suggestions were made to help minimize risk.  I agree that it is not likely to be an issue here, this was the first sentence of my first post:  They should be fine as long as other parameters are reasonably close.”  Yet sometimes there are concerns and we can’t tell by just looking at the water or the fish.  Small, daily water changes are the best way to get the tote as close to tap as possible since the tank will be mostly freshly dechlorinated tap water.  Would OP’s fish likely do fine without the water changes?  Yes.  Could it be guaranteed?  Absolutely not.  Not even with the water changes.  Odds of having a problem are low either way, but lower with the water changes.  Each of us do what we think is best and safest and hope there’s a little good luck on our side.

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pH shifts affect osmoregulation and causes ion loss in fish. Fish from soft acidic environments usually have biological defenses against ion loss. I believe that's where silver dollars and plecos are from so they'll probably be fine either way. 

Medium to hard water fish like guppies don't have the same defenses so I'd be a little more careful with them. I've seen pH increase of 7.6 to 8.8 over less than an hour kill hundreds of fish from these environments at a time. I used to work with a guy that did this over and over.

I've also noticed a very clear positive difference in the long term health of my own fish that were slow acclimated compared to those that weren't. I keep mostly hard water fish though.

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@Odd Duck  so the question was...basically....will moving my fish from a (probably) 6.5 pH to 8 harm my fish.  The answer is no. There is lots of research on this, here's some. 

“Effect of Varying Water pH on Hormonal and Haematological Parameters of Discus (Symphysodon aequifasciatus)”. S. Swain  et. al. 2019:

https://wkrec.ca.uky.edu/files/interactionsphetc.pdf

“Phytoplankton Photosynthesis, Micronutrient Interactions and Inorganic Carbon Availability in a Soft Water Vermont Lake”, Allen, 1972

 “Evaluation of pH Shock on Hatchery-reared Rainbow Trout”, Witschi et. al. 2011

 

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On 9/16/2022 at 9:20 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

@Odd Duck  so the question was...basically....will moving my fish from a (probably) 6.5 pH to 8 harm my fish.  The answer is no. There is lots of research on this, here's some. 

“Effect of Varying Water pH on Hormonal and Haematological Parameters of Discus (Symphysodon aequifasciatus)”. S. Swain  et. al. 2019:

https://wkrec.ca.uky.edu/files/interactionsphetc.pdf

“Phytoplankton Photosynthesis, Micronutrient Interactions and Inorganic Carbon Availability in a Soft Water Vermont Lake”, Allen, 1972

 “Evaluation of pH Shock on Hatchery-reared Rainbow Trout”, Witschi et. al. 2011

 

First I want to say that I'm not trying to say you're wrong here. I'm saying you're both right. Whether or not pH shock affects your fish depends on a lot of variables. I've raised millions of fish in my career and I can tell you with 100% certainty that pH shock is real and a quick change of only 1 pH can kill in some situations.

So if you swing your pH around and your fish have been fine, then keep doing what you're doing. In my personal situation, my fish have definitely not been fine with quick pH shifts. If someone is unsure, it's best to be cautious which is why avoiding pH shifts is recommended.

Lots of people say the pH shifts in nature, planted and CO2 injected tanks, and blackwater tanks prove pH doesn't matter to fish. But the speed of the pH shift is very important. The fact that pH can go from 6.5 to 9.0 over the course of a day in a planted tanks or in natural waters doesn't mean anything when considering rapid pH shifts.

Then there's the life history of the fish. Fish raised and have been able to survive (remember, in nature we only see the survivors) in an environment where pH changes are common will be more developmentally adapted to it that fish raised in stable pH environments.

Tannin/humic acids from blackwater and the consistently low KH that's often also in planted tanks protect against osmoregulatory disruption and ion loss (which is what rapid pH shifts cause), so pH shifts in these environments have less of an affect.

I'm not really sure why but a low KH environments might have something to do with allowing the fish's body to self regulate blood pH more easily (HCO3 in the environment is also absorbed into the body). Many fish will shift their blood pH in the opposite direction to compensate for ion loss. I don't recall the mechanism behind it off hand. Rapid pH shifts downward have actually been found to be more dangerous because the increase in blood pH will also increase blood ammonia levels. So how recently the fish was fed is also a big factor. I personally suspect CO2 or an excess of negative ions in general might also help.

Low TDS water also means the affects of rapid pH shifts will be less severe. pH shifts cause ion shifts for many different molecules, especially of metals we generally don't test for, which is a bit stressful and sometimes toxic to fish. Low TDS means fewer ions that can shift are present and less chance of toxic ions forming. But also hard water competes with positive ions meaning less toxic positive ions can enter the fish's body during a pH shift. If you're doing remineralized RO/DI, then you know these aren't in your water and rapid pH shifts are less of a risk.

Life history matter again here. The biology of fish raised in soft and low TDS water are accustomed to regulating their ions against the gradient. They'll be far less affected compared to fish of the same species raised in hard or high TDS water.

Plus many (if not most) fish from soft acidic environments, like Discus and many other species from the Amazon, have evolved biological defenses against losing ions. Basically they have hyperactive ion receptors so even very rapid pH shifts don't affect them as much if at all.

Things get even muddier because mortality from osmoregulatory disruption/ion loss (like rapid pH shifts cause) is known to often not start until 2+ weeks after the event. Even if there's no mortality, long term health is often negatively affected. Most toxicology studies don't wait around to observe and report on many long term affects.

And then all of this isn't true for all species of fish. Humic acids don't protect all species of fish from pH swings for example.

 

Did you happen to get your info from aquariumscience.org? I strongly recommend not taking everything on that website too seriously. The author does lots of "experiments" but often doesn't seem to understand that what might have made something true for him does not necessary make it true across the board. When he does, it often has a notable lack of emphasis IMO.

The author definitely doesn't understand much of the fish science he cites. I often get the impression he doesn't read much beyond the abstract. 

Toxicology studies from before the 90s, and especially before the 80s, even on the same species are very inconsistent. Back then they didn't understand the affects that many other water parameters and different fish biologies have on lethality. One of your studies was from 1972 and the "Witschi et. al. 2011" study was originally published in 1979. Those old studies shouldn't be taken as strong evidence for anything concrete.

The 70s gave us all sorts of fun science. My favorite is a paper called "the minnow problem" where a fisheries biologist suggested killing all minnows to make room for more game fish. I don't think I have to explain the problem with that here.

Edited by modified lung
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On 9/16/2022 at 2:50 PM, modified lung said:

Tannin/humic acids from blackwater and the consistently low KH that's often also in planted tanks protect against osmoregulatory disruption and ion loss (which is what rapid pH shifts cause), so pH shifts in these environments have less of an affect.

So this is why people can add things like catappa leaves to their tanks without issue?

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On 9/13/2022 at 11:48 AM, Kilrkitty08 said:

I have a chasing PH Question, I have a 75gl set and ready to fill, however, the fish I have a 30gl tote waiting to be moved are in a lower PH than my tap probably 6.5 going to an 8 because I don't need to use RO for any of these fish (live bearers, silver dollars, guppies and common pleco).  How much water should I replace with tap to acclimate them in the tote and over what amount of time?  Or should I cut it with RO and/or rain water and eventually change it to 100% tap with water changes?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!  

You did not specify if these are new fish or a tank upgrade.  I'm late to the game here, but here is what I did for my upgrade.

Keep as much of the original water (tote) as possible, with air stones.  If this is an upgrade, set up the new tank as usual, only about half full.  Prepare the new water as you would for any water change. Add any equipment, decorations and substrate from the old tank.  Depending on where you live, room temperature in both will be safe, and will equalize..

I don't know how much water you are dealing with in the tote.  When I upgraded, time was on my side, so over a period of hours I began swapping  small quantities of water between the new tank and the tote. I had 30 gallons to work with so about a half gallon an hour seemed prudent.  Because I was blending water, the differences between the two containers were less each time.  There were no problems.

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On 9/16/2022 at 11:20 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

so the question was...basically....will moving my fish from a (probably) 6.5 pH to 8 harm my fish.  The answer is no. There is lots of research on this, here's some. 

You are probably right.  But are you willing to take that chance with someone else’s fish?  It’s one thing to risk it with your own fish with full knowledge of your risk and your own comfort level.  It’s quite different to risk it with someone else’s fish who is depending on you to provide that extra measure of safety for their pet.

I typically make recommendations based on the potential for worst case scenario, because that might be exactly what’s present.  I just can’t know from my easy chair.  If I’m wrong in my advice, somebody’s beloved pet(s) could die.  I’m not willing to risk that so I make “your safest bet is” type recommendations as much as possible and practical.  If I give overly cautious advice, that’s why.

I also give advice on public forums as if a complete newbie is reading that advice, because trust me, there is at least one that is, even if it isn’t the OP.  Somebody could be lurking, too new and too shy to post, just reading and trying to learn.  That might be the someone that loses fish from some “not quite careful enough” advice.

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On 9/17/2022 at 8:42 PM, Odd Duck said:

You are probably right.  But are you willing to take that chance with someone else’s fish?  It’s one thing to risk it with your own fish with full knowledge of your risk and your own comfort level.  It’s quite different to risk it with someone else’s fish who is depending on you to provide that extra measure of safety for their pet.

I typically make recommendations based on the potential for worst case scenario, because that might be exactly what’s present.  I just can’t know from my easy chair.  If I’m wrong in my advice, somebody’s beloved pet(s) could die.  I’m not willing to risk that so I make “your safest bet is” type recommendations as much as possible and practical.  If I give overly cautious advice, that’s why.

I also give advice on public forums as if a complete newbie is reading that advice, because trust me, there is at least one that is, even if it isn’t the OP.  Somebody could be lurking, too new and too shy to post, just reading and trying to learn.  That might be the someone that loses fish from some “not quite careful enough” advice.

Sounds good to me. 👍

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Thank you all so much for your comments and giving me the confidence to make that move from the tote to the tank.  I did about 10gl switch out of tank water into the tote over the course of one day, waited for the next morning and moved them all over.  Looking back I probably didn't have to do that but it made me feel better.  I have had zero casualties and everyone is greatly enjoying their new home.

You all are the best!! Thank you so much! 

Edited by Kilrkitty08
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Lots of good information here.  Thanks for everyone taking the time to share.

On 9/17/2022 at 10:42 PM, Odd Duck said:

I  also give advice on public forums as if a complete newbie is reading that advice, because trust me, there is at least one that is, even if it isn’t the OP.  Somebody could be lurking, too new and too shy to post, just reading and trying to learn.  That might be the someone that loses fish from some “not quite careful enough” advice.

We are reading!

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