Honey, I Dirted the Tank!

[Daniel]

And one final thing (hopefully). Imagine you are taking pH readings on your aquarium. If you only measured in the morning, you would think your pH was 6.6. If you only measured in the evening, you would think your pH was 8.2. And if you took a reading in the morning and another one in the afternoon (and didn't factor in photosynthesis), you would think your test kit was broken!

[Andy's Fish Den]

On 11/12/2020 at 8:21 AM, Daniel said:

@Streetwise

Another day on the Forum and another thing I have learned.🙂

My chef/ instructor I had in culinary school used to always tell us "it's always a good day when you learn something new" so to this day, even 25 years later, I think every night what did I learn today?

[Daniel]

This isn't a big thing, or a thing we didn't all know, but this photo is a good illustration of what causes algae.

Notice how the algae stop a few inches from the water line (almost as if I had cleaned the glass with a magnetic algae scrubber)?

Lights! It is the lights. Algae grows where it gets good light.

Above that point on the glass the algae stops getting direct light and only receives indirect light.

It is not like we didn't all already know this, I just like the clarity of this example as a reminder so when the question arises, 'how do I get rid of algae' the amount of lighting should always be one of the things that comes to mind.

[Ken Dyer]

The eternal battle, duration and intensity of light (and how it changes based on how many plants you have and how well they are growing).

After dealing with different algae outbreaks it is never a wonder that newer hobbyists may struggle to understand why there is no formula for how to get rid of algae as today's cause may not be the reason you get algae in a month or two. Then the later struggle, how much algae to leave in a tank if you like the look of it or if your fish interact well with it 🙂 I like a little hair algae, but struggle finding a place between a little and a massive outbreak in a few weeks.

Or how to bring it back! I miss my green water in the golden whitecloud tank but the plant load in the tank seems to now be too high to maintain green water easily. Everyday in the fishroom can definitely present new challenges and sometimes it is hard to have the patience to make a small change and wait to observe the impact.

[Alesha]

2 hours ago, Ken Dyer said:

Everyday in the fishroom can definitely present new challenges and sometimes it is hard to have the patience to make a small change and wait to observe the impact.

THIS. Ugh...I'm SO impatient! But I'm trying to do better. Small changes...wait a bit...observe...see what happened.  So crucial to learning how nature is working in our tanks.

At lease I learned early on not to do those 75% water changes to fix everything!!! I think that's the one BIG change that new fishkeepers do that that stalls their learning curve. 

Thanks for the reminder, @Daniel and @Ken Dyer - little things can make a big difference!

[ChefConfit]

Coming up on 3 weeks since you planted and I know you are probably going to do an update soon but I'm horribly impatient.

Does the nermal tanks substrate having a higher albedo effect your light readings in that tank? 

Have all the plants fully converted and was there any difference in how long conversion took between the tanks?

Any noticeable growth yet? I think around 2-3 weeks is when my stem plants really started to take off in my dirted tank and I did my first trim at 4 weeks.

Any noticeable difference in the coloration of the plants? 

Also did any of the seedlings or the bulb survive in the dirted tank? 

Finally any noticeable differences in algae? Types/amounts/growth rate? 

 

[Daniel]

Thank you @ChefConfit! Your post above gives me a way to organize my thoughts and provide an update broken down by:

• Conversion to full immersion, which plants, how much
• Growth, a comparison of plant growth between the 3 tanks
• Coloration, a comparison of plant coloration
• Algae, types, amounts, growth rate
• Seeds and seedlings that hitchhiked in with the soil
• Albedo (reflected light) differences between the 3 aquariums
• Nitrogen cycle differences, timing and intensity between the 3 aquariums
• Fish health and other factors not otherwise covered above

If all goes well I should be able to crank out the first of these series of updates today.

[Daniel]

Thanks to the nudge by @ChefConfit today I put together 3 charts showing the progress of the nitrogen cycle in all 3 of the aquariums in this project.

The first chart is Eco which has about 2 inches of Eco-Complete substrate.

 

I believe all three aquariums have some residual fertilizer that came in with the plants.

 

This graph is a textbook example of the nitrogen cycle proceeding in 3 phases. With a hat tip to @KBOzzie59 below is a cut and paste from his post earlier Cycling help.

Phase 1:  Ammonia levels rise.

Phase 2: Nitrites rise and ammonia starts to drop.

Phase 3: Nitrates start to rise, nitrites begin to drop, ammonia near zero.

The photographic log of these measurements can be found in this blog entry :

This aquarium has had several guppies and 3 angelfish since it began to cycle. Even with a nitrite spike, the fish have been vigorous and happy and hungry the entire time. They get blackworms, Vibra Bites, and TetraColor granules, etc. several times a day.

[Daniel]

This second chart is Dirt which has about 1 inch of coal slag (Black Diamond Blasting Sand) over a couple of inches of organic garden soil from my asparagus bed.

 

The nitrites have stayed high but I suspect they will drop soon. My assumption is that the organic soil contains quite a bit of nitrogen in one form or the other. Despite the nitrite levels, you wouldn't know it by the fish. This aquarium also has several guppies and 3 angelfish. Even with the high nitrites, these fish are frisky and healthy. I don't know what to think about the nitrite levels other than the fish and plants are happy. We will see.

 

The photographic log of these measurements can be found in this blog entry:

 

 

[Daniel]

The third chart is Nerm which has about 2 inches of Caribsea Super Naturals Peace River substrate, which either really big sand or somewhat small gravel depending on how you look at it.

What is different about this tank is that it gets fertilizer in the form of Easy Green and Roots Tabs. Eventually it will get some Easy Iron also.

 

It appears to be almost finished cycling but then again you never know what those bacteria are up to. I have added Easy Green recently so it will be fun to watch the nitrates go up when I do.

 

The photographic log of these measurements can be found in this blog entry:

 

 

 

[Ken Dyer]

I wonder do the plants "prefer" to take in ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate first for food? I always wonder if a heavy plant load allows a tank to "cycle" faster but actually disrupts an actual "cycle" by the plants taking up a lot of the ammonia before the nitrifying bacteria get much of a chance. Though I would assume your charts would show this by ammonia levels dropping but nitrite not rising? 

As always enjoying following this!

[Daniel]

6 minutes ago, Ken Dyer said:

I wonder do the plants "prefer" to take in ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate first for food? I always wonder if a heavy plant load allows a tank to "cycle" faster but actually disrupts an actual "cycle" by the plants taking up a lot of the ammonia before the nitrifying bacteria get much of a chance. Though I would assume your charts would show this by ammonia levels dropping but nitrite not rising?

I don't know what the charts mean? Maybe later I will understand them.

I thought nitrites were more toxic than they seem to be?

Basically all three tanks have the same fish, plants, lights, etc. The main difference is the substrate. The is more data to come however, one tank is clearer, one tank has more plant growth, etc.

[RovingGinger]

13 minutes ago, Ken Dyer said:

I wonder do the plants "prefer" to take in ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate first for food? I always wonder if a heavy plant load allows a tank to "cycle" faster but actually disrupts an actual "cycle" by the plants taking up a lot of the ammonia before the nitrifying bacteria get much of a chance. Though I would assume your charts would show this by ammonia levels dropping but nitrite not rising? 

As always enjoying following this!

I feel pretty certain I’ve read that plants have a marked preference for ammonia uptake over nitrate and in fact have to do some conversion on nitrate and expend energy to use it. Pretty sure Diana Walstad writes about it. Not sure on nitrites at all. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by RovingGinger

[Daniel]

She says plants many plants prefer ammonium over nitrates, preferentially feeding off of ammonium and only switching to nitrates when the ammonium is depleted. But not all plants, there are some plants that are nitrate first feeders.

Plants use ammonium to synthesize proteins and when plants have to compete with nitrifying bacteria for ammonium plants have to expend additional energy to convert the nitrate created by the bacteria back to ammonium before they can use the nitrates.

[Daniel]

Only 1 tank, the Dirt tank had stray seeds come in (as expected). The most noticeable one so far is this plant which has grown from a small bulb.

[Alesha]

It's all fascinating, @Daniel. Thanks so much for sharing it as you go along! 

[Daniel]

What have the 3 aquariums looked like so far? Are there any visual differences?

Here is 1 Nov 2020.

All aquariums have similar layout, plants, lights etc.

Same tanks on 5 Nov 2020.

10 Nov 2020

15 Nov 2020

21 Nov 2020

Eco-Complete has been consistently the clearest so far, but that may be related to cycling. Eco cycled first, with the other 2 not far behind. Both Nerm and Dirt are getting clearer each day.

Note: I have intentionally not cleaned the glass on any tank yet. All 3 tanks were developing algae on the front panel when I was running 3 lights on each tank (too much light). Once I cut back on the lighting, the algae began to disappear. On Eco it is almost totally gone at this point. I will clean the glass on all in the next day or two.

 

 

 

 

[Daniel]

And finally here is today.

So what are the lessons so far?

One lesson is that your aquarium might get cloudy at first, but that if you can wait a few days/weeks, it will begin to clear up on its own.

And the other is that you can have too much light. As soon as I started growing too much algae, I cut back on the lighting and almost immediately the algae declined.

 

[Daniel]

One month into the project and all the aquariums, fish and plants are thriving.

Eco-Complete

The most clarity, but the least plant growth so far. But there is plant growth.

Dirt

The middle child. Better plant growth than EcoComplete, not quite as clear...yet.

Nerm

The most plant growth, even the babies tears are growing. But also a tinge of green water. But this tank is also clearing by the day.

All in all they are very similar so far. For the first time I gave each tank some Easy Green (5 mL). This should spur some plant growth. It is also probably time to refresh the root tabs in the Nerm tank.

 

[Daniel]

Today's photo update on all 3 tanks below. Next update will compared individual plant growth across all three aquariums.

Where they started:

Where they are today:

[Andy's Fish Den]

It's been interesting to follow along here @DanielIt looks like all the tanks are growing in quite nicely. I've never done a dirted tank, and I love eco complete so I've especially been watching how the dirted vs eco complete is.

[Daniel]

Just now, Andy's Fish Den said:

It's been interesting to follow along here @DanielIt looks like all the tanks are growing in quite nicely. I've never done a dirted tank, and I love eco complete so I've especially been watching how the dirted vs eco complete is.

So far both tanks have behaved very similarly. I would be happy with either tank. The Eco-Completer look slightly 'better' if what you are judging is how crystal clear the water is. But the dirted tank follows Eco-Complete by a few days. It is definitely getting clearer by the day as the nitrogen cycle settles in on both aquariums. My guess is it will be crystal clear shortly.

In a way the Eco-Complete tank is the most sterile tank which is why I think its plant growth is the slowest. Aesthetically we all want clear but clear means devoid of life. I like it too, but if I am trying to breed fish or raise babies total clarity is a bad sign.

For example here are the dwarf babies tears in all three aquariums:

Nerm has the lushest growth, dirt as always is the middle child and Eco-Complete is hardly growing yet. But if I asked a neighbor which tank they liked the best, my guess is they would point to Eco-Complete because of the current water clarity.

I gave all the aquariums 5 mL of Easy Green and Easy Iron yesterday.

 

[Andy's Fish Den]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

So far both tanks have behaved very similarly. I would be happy with either tank. The Eco-Completer look slightly 'better' if what you are judging is how crystal clear the water is. But the dirted tank follows Eco-Complete by a few days. It is definitely getting clearer by the day as the nitrogen cycle settles in on both aquariums. My guess is it will be crystal clear shortly.

In a way the Eco-Complete tank is the most sterile tank which is why I think its plant growth is the slowest. Aesthetically we all want clear but clear means devoid of life. I like it too, but if I am trying to breed fish or raise babies total clarity is a bad sign.

For example here are the dwarf babies tears in all three aquariums:

Nerm has the lushest growth, dirt as always is the middle child and Eco-Complete is hardly growing yet. But if I asked a neighbor which tank they liked the best, my guess is they would point to Eco-Complete because of the current water clarity.

I gave all the aquariums 5 mL of Easy Green and Easy Iron yesterday.

 

I would ahve not guessed at the beginning that the nerm tank would have the fastest growth so far. I would have assumed it would be dirt leading the way. It will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next few months to a year and see if the growth in the other tanks catches up or surpasses the nerm tank.

[Daniel]

There is a definite pattern emerging. The pattern is the Eco-Complete tank has the clearest water, but is the most sterile and also has the least plant grow. Today's plant is Vallisneria americana.

In the Eco-Complete tank the V. americana is pale and thin:

In the Dirted tank the V. americana is darker and wider:

And in the Nerm tank with Root Tabs under the substrate, V. americana again nice green leaves:

My guess based on these very few weeks so far is that because Eco-Complete is an inert substrate with no inherent nutrients, Eco-Complete is not providing food to the plant roots. But the upside of having no food is that the water is clearer as of now.

[Bern cave]

Like everyone else I'll be following this as well. I did a 20g with 1.5" soil 1" gravel. I found guppy grass and frogbit are thriving. 

good luck on this one!!!