Ziss bio media filter and setting up for least killifish

[TeeJay]

I currently run a tidal 56 and 2 med co op sponge filters on my 29 gal tank. I was thinking of switching out one of the sponge filters and replacing it with the ziss bio media filter for extra bb to grow. Amy one have experience with them? Would it be worth it or make a difference? The tank is going to mainly be for least killifish. Just want to have a great setup for them so I can breed them well and they will thrive.

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by TeeJay

[Patrick_G]

What’s the stocking level?

It’s seems like overkill for biological filtration since each sponge will do up to 40 gallons and the Tidal will do 50 gallons. I know there are other valid reasons to run extra filters, flow patterns, oxygenation, heavy stocking etc,  but it seems like you could just use one of the three plus an airstone. 

[TeeJay]

Well right now it's only one platy and a few guppys and 2 mystery snails. But I'm going to be adding in 16-20 least killifish in a couple of weeks and most likely moving out the guppy's. It's going to be the killifish adventure tank. I know I've already got overkill on it. Just thinking long term one I get the killifish going and breeding.

[Patrick_G]

Oh hmmm🤔 @Fish Folk, you have done lots of Killi breeding setups, what do you think? 

[TeeJay]

Here is a pic of the tank that I will be using.

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by TeeJay

[Fish Folk]

Do what you like! My only recommendation would be to put a coarse pre-intake sponge on the tidal if you want least killi babies.

Be aware that your Platy and Guppies might eat the Heterandria Formosa fry.

I’ve not tried the Ziss before, so cannot comment much.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Fish Folk

[TeeJay]

On 8/25/2022 at 8:48 PM, Fish Folk said:

Do what you like! My only recommendation would be to put a coarse pre-intake sponge on the tidal if you want least killi babies.

Be aware that your Platy and Guppies might eat the Heterandria Formosa fry.

I’ve not tried the Ziss before, so cannot comment much.

Oh yes I have one on there. Had it in ever since I put the tidal on. 

[nabokovfan87]

I use the ziss as a secondary "bonus" filter, not really main for anything.  On my 75G I ran 2-3 of them.  In my 29, I'd run one.  This was literally just to increase flow on one side of the tank and/or to have a means to "polish" the tank by filtering the water column itself a bit more directly.  It does a pretty decent job at that.

As far as use / replacing X and Y with a ziss.... you can totally replace a sponge with a ziss.  They typically require a bit more flow than a sponge in order to work effectively.  They can be more noisy, but it's not a bad thing. It's like having a fountain on in the office or something.  You get used to it.  You have to have the flow high enough to knock the lazy bacteria off, but low enough that the media isn't just getting tossed around and filled with junk. 

What you'll find is that the sponge is relatively thin. On my current setups, whenever I do use them I run 1/2 fine sponge and 1/2 the normal sponge.  Yep, it totally sucks to cut out a circle.

Alright so.... the big question, are there any issues?

Yep.  The biggest one I had was media getting stuck in the intake or the intake clogging over time, about 30-45 days.  It would lower the flow, then you'd see the little media slow down and know it's time to clean it out.  This requires taking it apart, which is a massive pain because the suction cups are military grade or something. They will likely shatter an aquarium if you rip too hard. I use a thin blade to pry them off.

Just be careful. get it out, then disassemble and clean it out.  Make sure there isn't a little bit of media stuck between the input tube and the air diffuser (it happens) and make sure the lid of the filter isn't gunked up with muck or plants. 

It's a great little add-on.  Totally not required. But I really enjoy them.

[TeeJay]

On 8/26/2022 at 1:23 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I use the ziss as a secondary "bonus" filter, not really main for anything.  On my 75G I ran 2-3 of them.  In my 29, I'd run one.  This was literally just to increase flow on one side of the tank and/or to have a means to "polish" the tank by filtering the water column itself a bit more directly.  It does a pretty decent job at that.

As far as use / replacing X and Y with a ziss.... you can totally replace a sponge with a ziss.  They typically require a bit more flow than a sponge in order to work effectively.  They can be more noisy, but it's not a bad thing. It's like having a fountain on in the office or something.  You get used to it.  You have to have the flow high enough to knock the lazy bacteria off, but low enough that the media isn't just getting tossed around and filled with junk. 

What you'll find is that the sponge is relatively thin. On my current setups, whenever I do use them I run 1/2 fine sponge and 1/2 the normal sponge.  Yep, it totally sucks to cut out a circle.

Alright so.... the big question, are there any issues?

Yep.  The biggest one I had was media getting stuck in the intake or the intake clogging over time, about 30-45 days.  It would lower the flow, then you'd see the little media slow down and know it's time to clean it out.  This requires taking it apart, which is a massive pain because the suction cups are military grade or something. They will likely shatter an aquarium if you rip too hard. I use a thin blade to pry them off.

Just be careful. get it out, then disassemble and clean it out.  Make sure there isn't a little bit of media stuck between the input tube and the air diffuser (it happens) and make sure the lid of the filter isn't gunked up with muck or plants. 

It's a great little add-on.  Totally not required. But I really enjoy them.

Ok so I think the biggest question I would have left them is do you think since it takes more air to keep it going at the appropriate level it would cause to much flow for the least killifish. I always keep my today turned all the way down as well.

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/26/2022 at 5:03 AM, TeeJay said:

Ok so I think the biggest question I would have left them is do you think since it takes more air to keep it going at the appropriate level it would cause to much flow for the least killifish. I always keep my today turned all the way down as well.

 I will take a video of my panda tank to try to show the flow / setup.  I don't have a ziss in there now, but the way to equate it is that the ziss isn't small bubbles. The bubbles are out of a plastic diffuser and pretty chunky.  I wouldn't say it's "more or less" flow for the fish, but it's a bit more surface agitation because the bubbles are pretty chunky.  As long as you're running 2 air devices, you're using a metal gang valve, you can pretty finely tune it.

Say you have a 20G tank and a 20G airpump. It might not be enough pressure just because of the way the ziss diffuses air and how it gets clogged up at times.  Same tank, 40G airpump, you're probably fine to run the ziss + Sponge. So it all just depends on what you're running and how it'll be setup. 

This pump had enough capacity to run the ziss, the sponges, and it's a "deep water" pond style air pump with slightly more pressure than normal. complete overkill. But.... I removed the ziss and hopefully you can see with the same setup, just removing the ziss the surface agitation is there the air is there, but it's not "too much" for the fish.  I wouldn't put a betta in this tank, so I totally understand the concern.  I am wording it this way because I don't know the specific care requirements you're looking at.  If you need a video of the ziss I have a few pumps and what not and I can easily simulate whatever need be for you. 🙂  (Sidenote, I guess the skimmer was jammed, I fixed it, bubbles are gone now)
 

 

[TeeJay]

On 8/26/2022 at 4:58 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

 I will take a video of my panda tank to try to show the flow / setup.  I don't have a ziss in there now, but the way to equate it is that the ziss isn't small bubbles. The bubbles are out of a plastic diffuser and pretty chunky.  I wouldn't say it's "more or less" flow for the fish, but it's a bit more surface agitation because the bubbles are pretty chunky.  As long as you're running 2 air devices, you're using a metal gang valve, you can pretty finely tune it.

Say you have a 20G tank and a 20G airpump. It might not be enough pressure just because of the way the ziss diffuses air and how it gets clogged up at times.  Same tank, 40G airpump, you're probably fine to run the ziss + Sponge. So it all just depends on what you're running and how it'll be setup. 

This pump had enough capacity to run the ziss, the sponges, and it's a "deep water" pond style air pump with slightly more pressure than normal. complete overkill. But.... I removed the ziss and hopefully you can see with the same setup, just removing the ziss the surface agitation is there the air is there, but it's not "too much" for the fish.  I wouldn't put a betta in this tank, so I totally understand the concern.  I am wording it this way because I don't know the specific care requirements you're looking at.  If you need a video of the ziss I have a few pumps and what not and I can easily simulate whatever need be for you. 🙂  (Sidenote, I guess the skimmer was jammed, I fixed it, bubbles are gone now)
 

 

Yes I'm running a metal gang valve with the co op air pump. So it would just be the ziss and one med sponge filter running on it. Just some food for thought. Not that I actually need it. I know with the 2 sponges and the tidal 55 I'm already on overkill for filtration. Just thought the ISS was an interesting piece of equipment. Hopefully I'll get to order my least killis end of next week to have them here mid week after.

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/26/2022 at 2:07 PM, TeeJay said:

Yes I'm running a metal gang valve with the co op air pump. So it would just be the ziss and one med sponge filter running on it. Just some food for thought. Not that I actually need it. I know with the 2 sponges and the tidal 55 I'm already on overkill for filtration. Just thought the ISS was an interesting piece of equipment. Hopefully I'll get to order my least killis end of next week to have them here mid week after.

Sounds good.  I think it can handle it.

How is the fish behavior in relation to the water surface and added surface agitation?

[TeeJay]

On 8/26/2022 at 5:17 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Sounds good.  I think it can handle it.

How is the fish behavior in relation to the water surface and added surface agitation?

Well it's just a few guppys and the newer 6 pack of Cory's in that tank right now. The Cory's surf all over the place. Low mid and top. The guppy's usual behavior all over the tank as well. I mean I never notice anyone intentionally staying away from the flow of the 55. The will go and play on the bubbles from the to time from the sponge filters. And there is not much plant movement from the flow either. Just one crypt that catches the most direct flow from the tidal. But it's just enough to see the leaves do a lite dance.

[Guppysnail]

I can fit 3 adult female least killifish on my index finger nail. These are SMALL and do not appreciate flow. The babies are tiny. Make certain you are able to block intakes and skimmers. If they are not shrimp proof they are not LK suitable. You are going to love these little beauties. 

[TeeJay]

On 8/26/2022 at 6:42 PM, Guppysnail said:

I can fit 3 adult female least killifish on my index finger nail. These are SMALL and do not appreciate flow. The babies are tiny. Make certain you are able to block intakes and skimmers. If they are not shrimp proof they are not LK suitable. You are going to love these little beauties. 

I have a pre filter sponge on my tidal 55 but have never been able to figure out how to "block off" the surface skimmer that's on it. I have never had a problem with fry getting sucked into the skimmer before. But that's always been guppy fry . Maybe cut down the thickness of a piece of square filter media and place it over the skimmer grates. @nabokovfan87 did you ever come up with a solution to that part in your tidal journey? I would hate to loose teeny killifish to the tidal monster.

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/26/2022 at 3:47 PM, TeeJay said:

Maybe cut down the thickness of a piece of square filter media and place it over the skimmer grates. @nabokovfan87 did you ever come up with a solution to that part in your tidal journey?

Black silicone works well on the skimmer. But that leads to emphasizing the midwater skimmer, which just means you have to seal that as well. Photos are all in the tidal thread. I haven't had any issues with either. You're already running the prefilter sponge so you're set to go.

A. Fix the skimmer just by sealing it, not required.

B. Fix the intake (Dremel out or drill out the plastic chunk on the pump housing that restricts flow on the intake tube)

C. Seal the mid level intake with the silicone.

D. Run a prefilter sponge. Optionally drill holes on the bottom of the intake tube.

On 8/26/2022 at 3:47 PM, TeeJay said:

I would hate to loose teeny killifish to the tidal monster.

Yeah, definitely an issue.

On 8/26/2022 at 3:32 PM, TeeJay said:

Well it's just a few guppys and the newer 6 pack of Cory's in that tank right now. The Cory's surf all over the place. Low mid and top. The guppy's usual behavior all over the tank as well. I mean I never notice anyone intentionally staying away from the flow of the 55. The will go and play on the bubbles from the to time from the sponge filters. And there is not much plant movement from the flow either. Just one crypt that catches the most direct flow from the tidal. But it's just enough to see the leaves do a lite dance.

Smallest fish I kept was white clouds with tidal 75s. They didn't have any issues long term. I only had one, so not a great example. The skimmer usually goes after wide/flat body fish.

[Guppysnail]

On 8/26/2022 at 6:47 PM, TeeJay said:

I have never had a problem with fry getting sucked into the skimmer before

You will with these. The fry hover right in the short roots of duckweed. I would use @nabokovfan87 suggestions as I’m not familiar with the Tidals. 

[Patrick_G]

I think I’d just remove the Tidal. I have the same filter on my 40 breeder. It has has a lot of flow and I can imagine those LKs getting pushed around.
You could also add some floss to the spillway to diffuse the flow. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/26/2022 at 6:37 PM, Patrick_G said:

You could also add some floss to the spillway to diffuse the flow. 

There was some cool stuff that I think it was @Chick-In-Of-TheSeawas using for the HoB from etsy where it hooks into the output and does a baffle, awesome little thing.  That's a great route to go as well. The issue with the tidal was the flow in, it's actually extremely easy to adjust the flow out if need be.

I would seal the skimmer at minimum.  The mid-level skimmer might be "fine" but it's better to just seal it and then fix the actual inlet tube opening.  If you have plants, I'd seal the midlevel one.  In my use, I don't think most fish will have any issues with the mid or lower skimmers.  My tiger barbs had a ton of issues with the skimmer. I hated going to sleep because they'd just be asleep and get stuck. Constantly.

[Wrencher_Scott]

I'm not to impressed with the Ziss

It doesn't have a lift tube or power head so not much flow. And not much media either. 

I would stick with the sponge. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/26/2022 at 10:01 PM, Wrencher_Scott said:

It doesn't have a lift tube or power head so not much flow. And not much media either. 

The green container is your lift tube. If you want more flow just add more air. If you are having issues (apart from just unhappy with it, I totally understand that!) Please feel free to send me a video of your setup with flow on a message so I can better help in any way.  I haven't had many issues, but I have thoroughly tested them in various setups.

[modified lung]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:23 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

You have to have the flow high enough to knock the lazy bacteria off

@nabokovfan87 You might be interested in this this bit.

That concept actually came from wastewater treatment facilities where ammonia reaches very high levels. The species of bacteria there have very high growth rates and consumes ammonia faster during the exponential growth phase.

Turns out with the low ammonia levels we need in our aquariums, the nitrifiers here instead have a very slow growth rate and don't consume more enough during the exponential phase to overshadow the advantages of a mature biofilm. That means in an aquarium, what applying enough flow to knock off bacteria really does is reduce the useable surface area of K1, for example, by maybe 30%. 

Edited August 27, 2022 by modified lung

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/26/2022 at 11:38 PM, modified lung said:

That concept actually came from wastewater treatment facilities where ammonia reaches very high levels. The species of bacteria there have very high growth rates and consumes ammonia faster during the exponential growth phase.

This is the only reason why I have em, I want that crazy good bacteria!!!

On 8/26/2022 at 11:38 PM, modified lung said:

Turns out with the low ammonia levels we need in our aquariums, the nitrifiers here instead have a very slow growth rate and don't consume more enough during the exponential phase to overshadow the advantages of a mature biofilm. That means in an aquarium, what applying enough flow to knock off bacteria really does is reduce the useable surface area of K1, for example, by maybe 30%

Ah, very interesting engineering issue. There is quite a few different media types, I don't really view that as a drawback, but just a facet of this type of a filtration method. I did try to "add more" of the media and I have looked into getting some other media to play around with it and see if I like it better. I did notice that specifically with the ziss, because it doesn't really have a robust intake and because of some of the design choices, these is a lot of crud that can get into the media chamber. I use a little strainer and rinse it off on deep cleanings, keep the media wet but that's where you run into this slowdown of flow over time. It's such an interesting design for me. Even if it was stuffed with sponge and used for chemical filtration, it has a ton of use cases. It's a pretty decent design and it will hold up and last a really, really long time.

I appreciate the information, question for you, have you ever used or worked with the sponge based "moving bed media"? I think for hobbyist use the place to get it is from brightwell. Again, it's just a different method to try to replicate that same atmosphere. I don't know how well it would work in comparison.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/26/2022 at 10:53 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

There was some cool stuff that I think it was @Chick-In-Of-TheSeawas using for the HoB from etsy where it hooks into the output and does a baffle

Here’s the link. Mine’s in production. He does them custom, based on requests - custom to filter brand, choose your color, message him with desired features, and he will message back with photos of options for you. I asked for one that is appropriate for a waterline 1” down. 

[modified lung]

On 8/27/2022 at 12:02 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I did notice that specifically with the ziss, because it doesn't really have a robust intake and because of some of the design choices, these is a lot of crud that can get into the media chamber.

This would be a good reason to keep the media moving. At my current job we use moving beds because in the past there was a lot of cost cutting that led to poor design. If the beds weren't constantly moving the biofilters would eventually fill with gunk, probably go anoxic at some point, and there's no good way to clean it out. I'm told someone had to jump in with a shovel at least one time in the past. I'd rather accidently take a sledge hammer to the side of the thing.

But the high ammonia bacteria these were designed for literally can't metabolize ammonia when it gets below a certain concentration. We can't get our total ammonia below 0.3–0.4 ppm. That might be fine for wastewater treatment but not always great for the fish. It would probably be worse but we use K3 instead of K1 which has more protected space on the inside. And the biofilters are already packed with so much media it's blowing out of some of them. But if we could switch to static, I think those numbers would go to 0.

Of course there's nothing wrong with using a moving bed biofilter in an aquarium. There's enough static surface area elsewhere to take care of the rest. Or just put in that extra media. And the moving bed looks really cool.

On 8/27/2022 at 12:02 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

have you ever used or worked with the sponge based "moving bed media"?

I've seen a few papers on them. I don't remember what they said. I've never seen one in person though. Have a link to the brightwell thing? Sounds interesting. I like DIYing weird things.