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None of my plants have ever grown, please help!


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On 8/30/2022 at 9:19 PM, Jenja said:

Definitely get a liquid gH/kH test kit - if you need to alter your water you need the most accuracy as you can get and strips are good for general range testing but not so much for exact degrees. 

I'm on a water softener too, salt based, and I don't bypass (too complicated for me, old home and I'm not very handy). For years I struggled simply because I didn't know/was never told that the softener was zeroing out my gH. Once I started using Equilibrium I finally had better success with plants and guppies (endler hybrids actually, the guppies I would try and fail with for years before the Equilibrium).

Even with addressing my gH, Vals just don't work for me. Didn't matter which tank I attempted they just don't survive in my water. This is not abnormal, some plants just don't work for me - to complicate things further some plants will work in one tank but fail in another. So it's been a trial and error process finding what works for me. Crypt wendtii have been my best plant overall, it survives and sometimes thrives in some of my tanks. Buce and java ferns both do okay for me. Guppy grass was one that almost didn't work but once it grew a bit it (and hair algae, always with the hair algae, I've come to accept this as a given lol) have my 33g a jungle that I need to prune asap. PSO did a boom then bust in one tank - I pruned too heavily when it was in the boom phase, and was forced to change lighting shortly after that so now it is almost gone. So yeah, expect to try a variety of plants, you will eventually hit some winners for your water. 

Whether you decide to go the bypass route, or if you rather stay with what is straight from the tap and adjust the gH, just be consistent in what you do - constantly chasing parameters to make a specific plant thrive likely will cause more problems in the end.

 

I’ll try to find a test kit this week, for a while I was having really good luck with my guppies and endless breeding quite a bit, I’m sure they still are but I also have Congo tetras with them now, I have kept away from crypts up to this point for whatever reason, but I’d like to try something red to add some color, but I’m not sure what will work yet. I’ll have to try some different plants and see what I can come up with! I’ll probably bypass the softener  as it removes a lot of minerals but what is the equilibrium you use? Is it a universal water treatment or something specific to your parameters? 

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On 8/29/2022 at 9:33 AM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

OK, we know that you likely have little to no iron, calcium, and magnesium in your water.  In addition, as the water softener removes the calcium and magnesium it increases the sodium bicarbonate which increases the pH of your tank.  Ideally you can install that "T" before the water softener and use that water. 

Question for my own knowledge.  On a tank in this situation trying to operate after a water softener.  If the softener system does use salt, would the tank have issues because you're literally dosing it with salt whenever you do a WC and that would be the issue with plants?  I looked at the photos and was expecting a ton of algae, but didn't see too much.

Please excuse my ignorance for what the softener machines actually do.  I haven't used one and always lived with hard water my entire life.  I have been to other states and experienced the difference in water feel, but not used it for keeping fish or understood what is going on chemically.

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On 8/31/2022 at 1:09 AM, Colton M said:

I’ll try to find a test kit this week, for a while I was having really good luck with my guppies and endless breeding quite a bit, I’m sure they still are but I also have Congo tetras with them now, I have kept away from crypts up to this point for whatever reason, but I’d like to try something red to add some color, but I’m not sure what will work yet. I’ll have to try some different plants and see what I can come up with! I’ll probably bypass the softener  as it removes a lot of minerals but what is the equilibrium you use? Is it a universal water treatment or something specific to your parameters? 

Rotala wallichii wouldn't work for me, that's about the only reddish plant I've ever attempt/wanted. My nymphaea rubra is doing pretty good in my 33g, it has a light green with occasional pinkish blush to it. 

Personally I constantly sing praises for crypts - I've had green wendtii in a fishless, kind forgotten 5.5g thrive, spreading under and around the piece of driftwood. Found the bronze wendtii tissue culture go from tiny little plantlets to massive plants that had to be removed from my 8g in record time for my low tech setup. Parva, again tissue culture, go from two small clumps that 6 months later (when I removed the wendtii bronze actually) had multiplied to the point where I have a respectable carpet. Balansae I'm currently setting myself up for trouble - two 2g tanks each with a few months old TC plant in the corner...still small, still happy but it's not going to work long term, they get big I've read. So yeah, crypt lover 😁

Equilibrium is by Seachem. It is a gH booster that has calcium and magnesium in the right ratio (along with some potassium, making it a very plant friendly choice). It's a powder. I did the math and all that to target degrees when I first started using it. Now I don't recall the number I chose, I simply add the dry measurement per gallon added that I decided on - a little different for a few tanks actually. The 33g is 1/2 Tbsp per 2g. My 8g, 5.5g, and 6g has been 3 1/64 tsp per 1g, and my 2g I've gone with 1/64 tsp per gallon. And yes, I'm aware the different amount per tanks is playing a role in why not all plants thrive in all tanks - the key is plants are doing well and fish are doing well with the dosages I've chosen because I've stuck to it.

On 8/31/2022 at 3:05 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Question for my own knowledge.  On a tank in this situation trying to operate after a water softener.  If the softener system does use salt, would the tank have issues because you're literally dosing it with salt whenever you do a WC and that would be the issue with plants?  I looked at the photos and was expecting a ton of algae, but didn't see too much.

Please excuse my ignorance for what the softener machines actually do.  I haven't used one and always lived with hard water my entire life.  I have been to other states and experienced the difference in water feel, but not used it for keeping fish or understood what is going on chemically.

A water softener system has resin beads in it that captures the calcium/magnesium and even iron (if I remember correctly). After a certain number of gallons go through the beads they become full, to flush them, making them capable of capturing those molecules again, a salt water brine flushes them which exchanges the calcium/magnesium/iron molecules for sodium. So yes, there is a minute amount of salt in the resultant water - though certainly not an extreme amount (there's a faint salty taste but it's not raising the water's salinity by any noticeable amount....Take this with a grain of salt, I've never bought a refractometer to check it but googling tells salt restricted diet people to avoid softened water....So yeah, my understanding is sketchy at best).

Edited by Jenja
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On 8/30/2022 at 11:05 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Question for my own knowledge.  On a tank in this situation trying to operate after a water softener.  If the softener system does use salt, would the tank have issues because you're literally dosing it with salt whenever you do a WC and that would be the issue with plants?  I looked at the photos and was expecting a ton of algae, but didn't see too much.

Please excuse my ignorance for what the softener machines actually do.  I haven't used one and always lived with hard water my entire life.  I have been to other states and experienced the difference in water feel, but not used it for keeping fish or understood what is going on chemically.


Hi @nabokovfan87

As we continue down the rabbit hole!  LOL

Water softeners cause three problems for plants, especially aquatic plants.  The softener removes the calcium (Ca) ions.  It removes the magnesium (Mg) ions.  And it replaces the Ca and Mg ions  with a lot of sodium (Na) ions.  Both the calcium and magnesium are secondary nutrients that plants require for healthy growth.  The added sodium (Na) ions have an antagonistic relationship with potassium (K) so as the amount of sodium (Na) increases the amount of potassium (K) that becomes available for plants to uptake is decreased.  So we end up with little to no calcium or magnesium and an excess of sodium that prevents the uptake of potassium.

@Jenjais correct, there is very little 'salt' (sodium chloride) in the output water from a water softener.  The sodium ions that the softener resin are attached to carbonate or sulfate ions that were originally partnered with the calcium and magnesium resulting in alkaline dissolved salts that increase the pH.  If you look at the charts below you can see the interactions of various nutrients as well as how pH effects the availability of some nutrients.  I believe you may be confusing sodium (an element) with sodium chloride (like table or rock salt).  Hope this helps! -Roy

1947125851_mulders-chart-positive-negative-plant-nutrient-interactions_3wLg.jpg.7fbeede13543c9cf11a35595847335b9.jpg

286586043_NutrientspH02.JPG.16e45614550cc86d1c85ddf1c1835f20.JPG

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On 8/31/2022 at 11:39 AM, Seattle_Aquarist said:


Hi @nabokovfan87

As we continue down the rabbit hole!  LOL

Water softeners cause three problems for plants, especially aquatic plants.  The softener removes the calcium (Ca) ions.  It removes the magnesium (Mg) ions.  And it replaces the Ca and Mg ions  with a lot of sodium (Na) ions.  Both the calcium and magnesium are secondary nutrients that plants require for healthy growth.  The added sodium (Na) ions have an antagonistic relationship with potassium (K) so as the amount of sodium (Na) increases the amount of potassium (K) that becomes available for plants to uptake is decreased.  So we end up with little to no calcium or magnesium and an excess of sodium that prevents the uptake of potassium.

@Jenjais correct, there is very little 'salt' (sodium chloride) in the output water from a water softener.  The sodium ions that the softener resin are attached to carbonate or sulfate ions that were originally partnered with the calcium and magnesium resulting in alkaline dissolved salts that increase the pH.  If you look at the charts below you can see the interactions of various nutrients as well as how pH effects the availability of some nutrients.  I believe you may be confusing sodium (an element) with sodium chloride (like table or rock salt).  Hope this helps! -Roy

1947125851_mulders-chart-positive-negative-plant-nutrient-interactions_3wLg.jpg.7fbeede13543c9cf11a35595847335b9.jpg

286586043_NutrientspH02.JPG.16e45614550cc86d1c85ddf1c1835f20.JPG

Sounds like our softener is a little different as rather than resin beads or other media, we use salt pellets that dissolve over time, so I’m essentially dosing with a relatively large amount of salt without any other hard minerals at all. 

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On 8/31/2022 at 1:05 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Question for my own knowledge.  On a tank in this situation trying to operate after a water softener.  If the softener system does use salt, would the tank have issues because you're literally dosing it with salt whenever you do a WC and that would be the issue with plants?  I looked at the photos and was expecting a ton of algae, but didn't see too much.

Please excuse my ignorance for what the softener machines actually do.  I haven't used one and always lived with hard water my entire life.  I have been to other states and experienced the difference in water feel, but not used it for keeping fish or understood what is going on chemically.

I do actually get a ton of algae in all my other tanks, but for some reason the one with the majority of my fish is okay other than all the bba that blooms every time I do a water change of any size. 

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On 8/31/2022 at 2:30 PM, Colton M said:

Sounds like our softener is a little different as rather than resin beads or other media, we use salt pellets that dissolve over time, so I’m essentially dosing with a relatively large amount of salt without any other hard minerals at all. 

Hi @Colton M

That is exactly how they work, as the resin becomes saturated with calcium and magnesium the salt pellets are dissolved into a brine solution and then the resin is 'flushed' with brine removing the calcium and magnesium and replacing them with the sodium from the sodium chloride (aka salt pellets).  Then the cycle starts all over again.  Water softeners are great to help avoid clogged pipes, coffee makers, dishwashers, washing machines, hot water heaters, etc.......just not for plants. -Roy

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On 8/31/2022 at 5:54 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Colton M

That is exactly how they work, as the resin becomes saturated with calcium and magnesium the salt pellets are dissolved into a brine solution and then the resin is 'flushed' with brine removing the calcium and magnesium and replacing them with the sodium from the sodium chloride (aka salt pellets).  Then the cycle starts all over again.  Water softeners are great to help avoid clogged pipes, coffee makers, dishwashers, washing machines, hot water heaters, etc.......just not for plants. -Roy

Picked up some test strips today but as an experiment I did a large water change in one of my planted 10g tanks last week using spring water from the store (ice mountain 2.5g containers from Walmart $4.25 each) and it seems to have really helped reduce the algae and the plants are doing much better as well. Here is a photo, there is a lot of mulm but the panda corys like to play in it so I keep it there. And the picture doesn’t look great but the hair grass used to have yellow/brown tips which are all back to green now. 

image.jpg

Edited by Colton M
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Hi @Colton M

I'm surprised that water could run through your pipes....it's almost like liquid rocks!  lol

Seriously, yes both you carbonate hardness (dKH = 10+) and General Hardness (dGH = 10+) are high and if nothing is done it will limit you to plants that can tolerate hard water.  If this were my tank I would pick up an RO filter and try mixing your water after the iron filter 50/50 with RO water and see what the readings are (since we don't really know how high above 10 degrees the two are).  If the readings are still high with 50/50 then try 75% RO and 25% tap water.  Once a proper mix of well and RO water is chosen then because all iron is being removed an iron supplement compatible with the pH will need to be added likely along with other nutrients.  -Roy

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On 9/3/2022 at 7:17 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Colton M

I'm surprised that water could run through your pipes....it's almost like liquid rocks!  lol

Seriously, yes both you carbonate hardness (dKH = 10+) and General Hardness (dGH = 10+) are high and if nothing is done it will limit you to plants that can tolerate hard water.  If this were my tank I would pick up an RO filter and try mixing your water after the iron filter 50/50 with RO water and see what the readings are (since we don't really know how high above 10 degrees the two are).  If the readings are still high with 50/50 then try 75% RO and 25% tap water.  Once a proper mix of well and RO water is chosen then because all iron is being removed an iron supplement compatible with the pH will need to be added likely along with other nutrients.  -Roy

We have an RO system here that is not hooked up, so I’ll see what I can do. 

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On 9/11/2022 at 4:16 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Colton M

Just checking to see how you decided to progress?  -Roy

I’ve not had the time to work on anything yet but I did do a water change in my tanks using 25% water straight from the well and the rest from the tap after softener, seems to be a little better for the plants. I’d like to run a line still but I’m not sure if it would be best to set up the RO as I would still have to supplement with minerals. I’d like to try from the iron filter straight to the tank and possibly just stick with harder water plants, I don’t want to do high tech setups or anything but I do really like dwarf hairgrass…

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