Algae on top of upper plants

[Pepere]

Other than algae on my HOB, and water heaters, and of course on glass which I am fine with cleaning weekly,  the most annoying algae is what forms on plants near the water surface.

 

the leaves as the top of my Scarlet temple hasgreen patches, and valsinerius and dwarf sag leaves near top of water column has hairy green to darker algea patches about 3/4of an inch long.

 

same stuff grows on driftwood near top but that is easy to pull out of tank and scrub.

 

I could use some help on the plants though.  Scrubbing them with a toothbrush hasnt proven that efficacious.  Trimming leaves off is the fastest way to remove it.

 

is it likely that Florida Flag Fish would help with this?

 

i

 

[Pepere]

Easy carbon doesnt seem to be doing much about it and increasing dosage is not something I want to do since valsinerius is sensitive to gluteraldehyde.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Pepere

[Marcelo]

I had and still have the same problem (much less now after I took this actions and advises).

look this thread … I hope it gives you a starting point 

 

[John Henry]

Hello @Pepere, I am watching this thread with interest as I have a similar issue going on.  Trying to fine tune my lighting and ferts to see If I can beat it.  The experienced and successful plant growers here are usually willing to help if you give them sufficient information.  If you can provide your type of light, photoperiod, water chemistries, fertilization and water change schedule I believe you will get some helpful responses.

[nabokovfan87]

If you want to, I have a long-running journey trying to eradicate this stuff from my tank.  It's been a hassle and this specific type of algae isn't easy to get rid of. 
 

On 8/19/2022 at 3:26 AM, Pepere said:

same stuff grows on driftwood near top but that is easy to pull out of tank and scrub.

 

I could use some help on the plants though.  Scrubbing them with a toothbrush hasnt proven that efficacious.  Trimming leaves off is the fastest way to remove it.

Exactly, and honestly, it's not useful long term because the algae is growing so much faster than the plants are. 

I was talking with @OnlyGenusCaps and they recommended some others to talk to as well as their own experiences and methods for cleaning this stuff.

What you're looking at is BBA and/or Staghorn algae which are forms of red algae.  Once it's in the tank it's very, very difficult to get rid of.  It takes a hold and doesn't let go at all.  I know @Guppysnail is dealing with a similar issue as well.  The notes I received is that this stuff likely makes it way into our tanks and then finds a way to thrive.  It's trying to stick around just as hard as those plants are!

As mentioned, I have been trying for a very long time to eradicate this stuff.  There are some tips I can pass along.  There are photos in my tank thread as well that might be helpful, but there have been spot conversations where I will try to condense everything here to try to help everyone in this thread.

A.  Manual removal is the only way.  If one little bit is left in the tank, if you let it thrive, it will bloom eventually and spread again. The spores go into the water and then latch onto other surfaces.

B.  In my experience blooms can be very cyclical once you get stuff dialed in.  You can then control those spores by water changes, fighting it harder when you have those blooms happen, but.... it's something where you're having a "best guess".  Diligent maintenance on the tank, and trying to keep pushing yourself to do that manual removal is going to be the best thing.  You can add 20+ amanos and other fish and it might not be enough to take care of it.  There also will be spots where it hardens and takes hold (especially on hardscape and equipment) and leads to the fish in the tank ignoring it.  If the algae growth is newer, the animals tend to focus on that.   There have been reports, videos by pecktec as well, showing that after you clean something in the tank the shrimp and other algae eaters will go ahead and pick at it afterwards.  I have seen amanos, otos, and even corydoras do this.

C.  Lower lighting, be very consistent with your dosing, and adjust based on what you're seeing happen in the tank.  The biggest contributor to this algae is that new growth can't out-compete it.   Plants will grow, then algae latches onto that growth and chokes the plants out.  What this means is that your plants are constantly trying to use old growth as energy for new growth, which quickly becomes old growth, etc.  I have even had this happen with very fast growing plants in my tank.  Things look fine for ~2 weeks and then a bloom happens and everything starts over.  This is where you need to help the plants fight it off as best you can.  For stem plants this is extremely difficult.  The stems themselves can turn to nothing and then the plants aren't close enough to the high light to grow quickly. 

D.  Make sure you don't have an excess of temp, iron, and phosphates.  Higher temps help the algae.  Nitrates, Iron, and Phosphates can also trigger it if there is excesses.  Make sure you're removing dead plants or rotting plants (and food) to keep phosphates low.

So..... based on the type of plant, I have a few methods and some have shown various success.

Anubias:  I had this stuff CAKED over every leaf and every root.  I would turn the lights down to essentially just above off.  Dosing ferts was very minimal.  I have them in a tank now where I specifically dose once a month or once every 2-3 weeks rather than every week.  I cut way back on everything and used ambient light to let the plant grow.  This is as close to blacking out the tank as you can.  I have the red algae pretty much on hold at this point (knock on wood) and I have added new pieces of hardscape which have not shown new growth of this algae (again, knock on wood).  I let the new growth happen and then I would go ahead and remove the stuff that's caked on.  If you don't have any leaves on the rhizome and everything is caked in the stuff, roots, etc. then you have to wait for new growth to show up. 

Here is a good example of what this looks like in a plant in a bad situation.  This plant you can see the yellowing, it's too close to the light, nutrients are low and inconsistent, and we see that algae again taking hold on the new leaves on that new growth.



Moss:  Essentially this one is the easiest to contain.  You will have a very, very difficult time removing the algae from the moss.  What I opted to do is to take the moss as it grows and add it to new surfaces around the scape.  I would clean something, attach moss.  This cuts down on places where the algae can take hold easily and gives the moss more new growth every time you do this.   I HOPE..... this is the method to out-compete this stuff for good.  Especially if you're running pressurized CO2, this is something I would focus on.  The best way to handle this is likely to trim the moss, treat it with H2O2, Alum, or RR dips and then re-attach it.

Stems:  I would recommend doing the Revise Respiration treatment on these plants.  There is a thread in the Journals / Photos section that people are posting their results.  This is kind of the only way to really keep leaves on the stems and to give the plant it's best chance for sustained new growth.
 

On 8/19/2022 at 3:26 AM, Pepere said:

the leaves as the top of my Scarlet temple hasgreen patches, and valsinerius and dwarf sag leaves near top of water column has hairy green to darker algea patches about 3/4of an inch long.

 

same stuff grows on driftwood near top but that is easy to pull out of tank and scrub.

As long as it's green, similar to what @Marcelo is showing in their thread, a blackout for ~7 days is likely a great way to handle it.  They reported success using flourish excel as well.  They also have pressurized CO2.

On your photos, I think you have the stuff I am dealing with and it's black (or dark grey) in color and in some lights it's even green.


 

[Guppysnail]

On 8/20/2022 at 2:44 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I know @Guppysnail is dealing with a similar issue as well. 

This was awhile ago. I removed the wood that was causing it and it went away. 

As for hardscape at the tops of tanks I get all kinds of algae being to close to the light. I dab it with a cotton ball of grocery hydrogen peroxide when water is low for water change and wait 5 minutes and scrub it off. 
 

Upoer plant leaves I just trim. 
 

 

[Pepere]

On 8/20/2022 at 12:01 AM, John Henry said:

The experienced and successful plant growers here are usually willing to help if you give them sufficient information.  If you can provide your type of light, photoperiod, water chemistries, fertilization and water change schedule I believe you will get some helpful responses.

Well,….

 

I have a finnex planted plus24/7  light.  I am less than enamored with it as the transition to one light setting to another works out to 3 hours.   Works fine if you do it over the course of the day, but trying to have a siesta is a bit if a bear.

 

I will likely get a fluval 3.0 this week from the CO op…

 

in any event I have 4 light periods.  A reddish setting at 6:00am and 9:00 pm

and high intensity white at 9:00 am and 6:00 pm.  No light at all at 3:00 and 12:00 day or night.

 

so, with &first photo period set at 6:00 am thelight comes on hours earlier very dim and gradually brightening, and the light is not fully off at noon….

 

frustrating..  I think the Fluval will solve that quandary….

 

29 gallon display tank

ph 7.4, ammonia 0, nitrite 0 nitrates between 20-40.  Ie I dose with simple green when it drops to 20 and wait typically 3-4 days for it to drop back down to there.

I run 2 box filters that have pot scrubbers for  biofiltration and gravel in bottom to weigh them down and poly fill on top for mechanical. And a tidal 35 hob with 3 sponges in it and the rock media that came with it on top.

tank is dosed to a hair under 30 ppm co2 every morning

gh 4 degrees, kh 3 degrees.

I dose simple iron weekly

I dose simple carbon every other day.  Valsinerius seems to be tolerating it well.

This morning I pulled heaters hob and driftwood and scrubbed out of tank as well as airline tubing floating plant corals and airstone tubing.  Scrubbed all tank walls.

trimmed back all valsinerius and dwarf sag leaves with growth, pulled all stem plants with growth to give a peroxide soak and replace after rinsing off.   I removed the dwarf hairgrass in the front as it has never done much of anything and there was some of the same algae stuck in the blades….  Serviced the box filters with new polyfill on top, rinsed the sponges and mesh bag in the tidal and did a 70% water change to remove a lot of the floating fragments and thorough gravel vac.

 

Fritz complete added, Refilled and dosed with CO2, easy iron, easy green and easy carbon.

 

Now to wait and watch…

Would Florida Flag fish be too tough on the valsinerius and dwarf sag?

 

 

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/20/2022 at 2:17 AM, Guppysnail said:

As for hardscape at the tops of tanks I get all kinds of algae being to close to the light. I dab it with a cotton ball of grocery hydrogen peroxide when water is low for water change and wait 5 minutes and scrub it off. 

I dig this idea.  Makes it super easy to apply and probably greatly reduces the ability to overdose it.

[Pepere]

I noticed the algae growing back already on the water heaters and hob, and driftwood after scrubbing yesterday.

 

I pulled them this morning and disassembled the Tidal 35 hob and scrubbed, soaked in hydrogen peroxide and rescrubbed and then rinsed and scrubbed.  there was a fair amount under the basket and in the impeller….

 

flow is improved afterwards.  Yes the media was taken out before and left soaking in tank water.

 

now back in water and running and there are rust colored splotches on the outside housing.  Remnant algae that was killed by the peroxide.  I am guessing just scrubbing it before left plenty to grow back.

 

heaters and heater suction cups received same treatment.

same with driftwood.

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/21/2022 at 6:45 AM, Pepere said:

I pulled them this morning and disassembled the Tidal 35 hob and scrubbed, soaked in hydrogen peroxide and rescrubbed and then rinsed and scrubbed.  there was a fair amount under the basket and in the impeller….

 

flow is improved afterwards.  Yes the media was taken out before and left soaking in tank water.

Seems to be my ongoing struggle also.  What size tank is this?

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/21/2022 at 7:45 AM, Pepere said:

I noticed the algae growing back already on the water heaters and hob, and driftwood after scrubbing yesterday.

 

I pulled them this morning and disassembled the Tidal 35 hob and scrubbed, soaked in hydrogen peroxide and rescrubbed and then rinsed and scrubbed.  there was a fair amount under the basket and in the impeller….

 

flow is improved afterwards.  Yes the media was taken out before and left soaking in tank water.

 

now back in water and running and there are rust colored splotches on the outside housing.  Remnant algae that was killed by the peroxide.  I am guessing just scrubbing it before left plenty to grow back.

 

heaters and heater suction cups received same treatment.

same with driftwood.

Here's a little trick I use. During my water change, I fill a travel size hairspray bottle with hydrogen peroxide and mist all the externals down. This really slows down the algae and increases the time between major scrubbings

[Pepere]

29 gallon.

 

Its looking really nice right now..

 

I will need to take a picture to freeze it in time.

 

i ordered the fluval 3.0 yesterday in order to get better control of the lighting schedule.

 

i should get it by mid week.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Pepere

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/21/2022 at 1:45 PM, Pepere said:

29 gallon.

You can follow along here with my 29 and it's filter progress.  I would encourage either a side-mounded Tidal 75 or using a Tidal 55 on that tank.  the 35 is really only strong enough for a 10G tank, especially given the unique issues with the intake on that one.
 

On 8/21/2022 at 1:45 PM, Pepere said:

i ordered the fluval 3.0 yesterday in order to get better control of the lighting schedule.

Awesome choice.  If you need help with setup or anything I can send you what I'm running in a DM.  I would have to see the tank, plants, etc.

There is also the Fluval 3.0 thread.

[Pepere]

On 8/21/2022 at 6:17 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I would encourage either a side-mounded Tidal 75 or using a Tidal 55 on that tank.  the 35 is really only strong enough for a 10G tank, especially given the unique issues with the intake on that one.

I have two large Lee’s triple flow box filters in the back corners in addition to the tidal.

I have crushed coral in the bottom of them for weight and due to fairly soft water, nylon pot scrubbers for biofiltration and a bit of polyfill for mechanical.

I mostly keep the tidal because the plastic is cut out for it.  I am less than thrilled with it.

I have it in the middle back with flow across front of tank and from there going down and to the sides.

The two corner filters helps with the corners and If I am going to have airstones in the back corners, why not have filtration along with it…  and it keeps the crushed coral out of sight.

The eventual plan is to get a 75 gallon in the living room in a couple of years and transfer plants and livestock to that.  Then tear down the 29 and put undergravel filter plates in it.

tThe fewer electrical lines going in to the water, the better as far as I am concerned.  Air driven filtration is fine for my tastes.

 

 

 

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/21/2022 at 3:53 PM, Pepere said:

I have two large Lee’s triple flow box filters in the back corners in addition to the tidal.

ah ok. That makes sense.  On my 29 with the tidal 35 (I have a 55 for it, just not on the tank) I run two sponge filters for actual filtration.  The tidal is there just for chemical / polishing.  It's a great betta filter, but just not so great for most tanks.  I don't know why they designed it in such a way.

 

 

On 8/21/2022 at 3:53 PM, Pepere said:

The eventual plan is to get a 75 gallon in the living room in a couple of years and transfer plants and livestock to that.  Then tear down the 29 and put undergravel filter plates in it.

tThe fewer electrical lines going in to the water, the better as far as I am concerned.  Air driven filtration is fine for my tastes.

I understand that. Very interesting!

[Pepere]

[nabokovfan87]

Do you have a feeding ring or any method for controlling the floating plants?  This helps with surface agitation and gas exchange, as well as lighting.

29G tanks can be fickle because the height is usually giving hobbyists issues.  The stems will grow and you can replant them when they get to a certain point for the sake of  increasing plant mass.  That being said, you do have enough plant mass now and I would expect it to be pretty easy to balance things out longer term.  Again, keep an eye on the floaters and determine if those are blocking too much light in the future.

This is the way I am running my light right now.  I have less plant density than you do with some pretty severe algae issues I am working on.  I would start here, see how the plants are doing (especially those closest to the substrate).  I have had this work well with everything except for Dwarf Hairgrass.  It grows, but not well.  I also have gone as high as 75-85% with these ratios and had success on the 24" version of the light. 

Start here, after ~30 days or so adjust it up by 10-15% or leave it.
 

Edited August 22, 2022 by nabokovfan87
changed image scale

[Pepere]

I have airline tubing corals with fittings that attach to suction cup fittings on tank walls.

the floating plants are pretty much confined to the front of the tank where the tank has been left somewhat bare.

I currently have finnex planted plus lighting rear of tank which lights up the submerged plants well, and finnex stingray over floating plants on a simple timerto light those up.

for floating I have some red root floater, salvinius, and maybe 5-6 watter lettuce.  And of course some length of valsinerius.

 

i removed the dwarf hairgrass that was in front it wasnt thriving and was harboring algae.  I think between the depth and the floating cover I will be better suited with some low light small plants here.

 I have Hornwort in the back along with 2 vals, assortedstem plants that are not identified, some dwarf sag, a crypt, some scarlet temple that is struggling, 2 thriving lotus and some other assorted stem plants. And some wisteria that thrives.

There are mesh bags with miracle grow organic potting soil, and topsoil that was seived and soaked with excess floating fiber removed before putting in mesh bags under the gravel substrate.  About 2 inches of gravel on top of the soil bags.

I am planning on dosing leaner for a few weeks keeping nitrates under 20 ppm. And I am reducing feeding a bit as well.  Once per day about half as much as before to see if this helps.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Pepere

[Pepere]

Been re reading Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by Diana Walstead.

chapter on Algae control…

She makes it sound deceptively easy to keep Algae in control…

 

dirt substrate, heavily planted fast growing plants and floating plants and it is hard for Algae to survive…

 

oh well, far better to have an algae issue than a dying fish problem..

It might take time to learn how to balance a planted tank, but it also too time to learn how to ride a bike…

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/22/2022 at 2:35 AM, Pepere said:

I have airline tubing corals with fittings that attach to suction cup fittings on tank walls.

Ok.... you just gave me an idea.  Let me see if I can find it.  I need about 10-30 anubias nana petites. 😂

On 8/22/2022 at 2:35 AM, Pepere said:

I am planning on dosing leaner for a few weeks keeping nitrates under 20 ppm. And I am reducing feeding a bit as well.  Once per day about half as much as before to see if this helps.

I have been trying to keep it under 10. But yeah, whatever you can do to keep it lower, will most likely help the situation.  It's just something I keep an eye on.

 

 

On 8/23/2022 at 9:16 AM, Pepere said:

Been re reading Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by Diana Walstead.

chapter on Algae control…

She makes it sound deceptively easy to keep Algae in control…

 

dirt substrate, heavily planted fast growing plants and floating plants and it is hard for Algae to survive…

 

oh well, far better to have an algae issue than a dying fish problem..

It might take time to learn how to balance a planted tank, but it also too time to learn how to ride a bike…

I'll send you a resource I was reviewing.  One of the bigger things they talked about was diluting water if you have hard water. Temp. and a few other things.  As you said, they make it "deceptively easy" is the best way to word it.
 

 

[Pepere]

On 8/23/2022 at 5:42 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

One of the bigger things they talked about was diluting water if you have hard water. Temp. and a few other things.  As you said, they make it "deceptively easy" is the best way to word it.

Every one of them are eminently confident.  They all have solutions to make Algae incredibly unlikely with minimal further input…

 

IIRC Green Aqua preaches canister filters for everybody, high end co2 systems etc… sponge filters are not good enough etc….

 

In any event I have soft water living in Maine.  The water district actualy adds calcium to bring up to 3 degrees of GH and Carbonates to bring up to a hair over 2 degrees KH and raises ph to 7:4 to prevent lead leaching from solder in copper piping.

 

I have a little crushed coral in my box filters for weight and to add a bit more calcium for the plants.

my Inkbird is set to 76 high, dropping to 72 before it turns on to boost back up.  With the heat of summer my tanks have naturally been fluctuating between 74 to a high of 78.

 

I have all my plants cleaned up and the rest of the tank looks pretty good right now after Weekends efforts.

 

i am also backing off the iron dosing.

 

Time will be the proof.

If I can go a couple weeks with Algae growth on plants under control I will try backing off on the Easy Carbon to try to get back off of it.