Bait shop - large quantity of fish problem

[indybaitshop]

hello I run a good size bait and tackle shop in Indiana and have been dealing with an issue I have experimented in a lot and researched in.

I run two large 150 gallon holding tanks combined by plumbing ran with a large chiller about 55 degrees and a fx4 filter with pre filter. I run my shop on city water unfortunately..  I do water changes about every day 30 t0 40 % and slowly fill with city water and use instant dechlorinator. I use test strips and always seem to have good water conditions and no chlorine. but do seem to have very high water hardness. I have been losing about half to a pound of minnows and shiners a day. usually hold around 40 pounds of fish at a time in this system. Is anyone familiar with this kind of bulk of fish? Any suggestions would be awesome  thanks! 

[drewzero1]

Could be a lot of things with that volume of fish. How's the ammonia? Nitrite and nitrate? What and how much do you feed? How long has the system been running? How, and how often, do you clean the filter?

Then, all environmental factors being fine, they could just be coming in stressed or sick from your supplier. I don't have much experience with bait fish, but feeder minnows often don't seem to last long in the pet store tanks or after bringing them home.

[nabokovfan87]

Is each tank with it's own filtration or do they connect?

My assumption is that it's related to a QT issue and prevalent in the tanks as a result.

Using city water isn't really an issue as long as you're aware of the quality of the water itself.  As long as the fish don't mind those water parameters, it's not really an issue.

The second key determination is going to be how you're acclimating fish when you receive them.

Is it an option for you to have tubs beside each of the tank that contain a very large water volume?  Fish come into your care, they go to the tubs for QT, then you move them to the display tanks after you assure they don't have any issues?  Maybe pond style tubs in general is just easier for this application and water volume?
 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[CT_]

I can't really picture how many fish 40 lb of fish is but it sounds like a lot.  is there enough airation?  Assuming chemistry is otherwise okay I'd make sure they have enough o2. 

 

How many fish do you get in and how often?  Do you feed them at all?  If the turn over isn't high enough they might starve.  In some cases they may not have eaten at all in the supply chain which could add up to a lot of time. 

[modified lung]

Fixing problems like yours is what I do for a living. I'd need more detail on your system and the water quality profile from your tanks and city though.

But fair warning, there is a chance there's not much you can do to lower the mortality rate. Bait fish tend to be heavily neglected by their suppliers. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/14/2022 at 8:22 PM, CT_ said:

I can't really picture how many fish 40 lb of fish is but it sounds like a lot.  is there enough airation?  Assuming chemistry is otherwise okay I'd make sure they have enough o2. 

Ah, very good point.  I would totally add 2-3 drops on each tank just to have extra air.  Tetra makes an AP300, one per tank would be perfect.  It's meant for deep / pond style applications and you could very easily get 2-4 airstones per output.  (Ap150 = 1 output, AP300 = 2 outputs)

This subject and treatment, I would consider very relevant to what your fish go through prior to when you receive them as well. (minus the wood)
 

Maybe @modified lung can confirm this given the industry knowledge!

Edited August 15, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[lefty o]

well, its been a long long time. in high school i worked a few summers in a bait shop, that was also one of the largest live bait distributors in the upper midwest. i guess id have to start at where did the minnows come from, how long were they in transit, and how were they shipped. secondly i wonder how much water are you turning over? are your bait tanks constantly fed , or on a timer? we had at the time likely the last functional well in the city, and our tanks both in the store, and the large stock tanks out back were on a constant feed. chlorine/chloramines would be my biggest concern since you are on city water, followed closely by how many gallons an hour are running through the tanks. lastly water temp, as most baitfish sold does best in cooler to cold water. like i said, we were the main distributor for 5 states, and maybe every week and a half we lost a 5 gallon bucket worth of stock. as a side note, this brings back memories, if you ever wondered what the worst smell in the world is, you will find out if you are the guy who has to go out back dig a hole to bury the dead bait in.  at the bottom of that week to two week old bucket is the worst smell you can possibly imagine.

[indybaitshop]

wow thanks so much for all the fast comments. yha quality of the bait has concerned me as I know they come in with pop eye/ fungus shiners are all bruised up  you name it..

but on my end all tests are in the good range as of nitrates, nitrites, ammonia, ph,. (kh is very high), Chlorine or Chloramines, alkalinity all good. O2 has also been tested multiple times.

running a one fx4 filter and a very large fluidized sand filter that connect the two tanks . Thinking of running more filtration? ??

40 pounds is about 250 to 300 crappie minnows per pound if that gives you an idea of the volume I go through. That's about twice a week. 

I feed them about twice a week or so.. all depends of how fast I go though them as it is seasonal and 40 pounds might last 2 days or 7 days 

The fishery I buy them from acclimate them for me for about 5 min when I get a delivery 

also keep the temp around 55 I can go lower if I need too 

attached a older picture of my tank set up before I pvc piped the chiller in from a back storage room 

 I keep crappie minnows, bass minnows, shiners and a fourth side for extra if needed 

well I'm defiantly making a good profit as we are probably the most busiest shop in Indianapolis area but just the loss in minnows has got me frustrated. I like to problem solve every obstacle I come across. haha this one wont beat me 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/14/2022 at 10:00 PM, indybaitshop said:

running a one fx4 filter and a very large fluidized sand filter that connect the two tanks . Thinking of running more filtration? ??

 The main issue is simply that no matter what, you have such a large risk because you have a shared filtration and one fish in one tank sends the pathogens to the other fish in the other tank.  Even having something like 3-4 tubs might fit, lower your losses once we exclude other circumstances.

Aeration looks fine, but I do see some foaming on the top, just a note.

On 8/14/2022 at 10:00 PM, indybaitshop said:

I feed them about twice a week or so.. all depends of how fast I go though them as it is seasonal and 40 pounds might last 2 days or 7 days

Definitely one of the circumstances and variables at play here.  I can't speak to what is common, but going back to that otocinclus video, I would suggest trying to offer more food.  This is also going to lead to more issues with water quality depending on what you're feeding and at what rate.  If you're doing a very lean feeding 2x a week, I can't say that every fish is going to eat.  That alone might be enough to contribute to the losses.  It all depends on how hungry the fish are before they get to you.

On 8/14/2022 at 10:00 PM, indybaitshop said:

The fishery I buy them from acclimate them for me for about 5 min when I get a delivery 

You will very likely have a much better result doing this yourself and it isn't difficult at all 🙂

On 8/14/2022 at 10:00 PM, indybaitshop said:

quality of the bait has concerned me as I know they come in with pop eye/ fungus shiners are all bruised up  you name it..

If you can easily see illness do you remove those fish?  do you treat for anything in your tanks?

[Guppysnail]

Sounds like you are very successful. I have no experience with this type of setup but my hubby fishes A LOT. Our local bait shop 2 years ago was having similar issues. They were fortunate enough to know other bait shop owners that used the same supplier. They determined the issues were at the supplier but I’m not certain what it was.  Sorry that’s all I know and probably is not helpful. I know selling bait fish is a whole different ball game than fish tanks since you don’t treat or medicate or even have them long enough to do so. 

[Colu]

You could add an inline uv sterilizer to your canister filter the uv will break the DNA chains of virus and bacteria stopping them from reproducing that will lesson the chances of you having a disease out break I would also feed more than twice a week as some of your fish might have come in weak and the twice week feeding might not be enough to build them up again that could be the cause of some of your losses

Edited August 15, 2022 by Colu

[lefty o]

if the bait is coming in with fungus, and bruised up, thats a pretty good chance your problems lie with the handling and care of the bait before you get them.

[gardenman]

Bait fish and feeder fish are often raised in less than ideal conditions and handled roughly. "They're just going to get eaten anyway," is the philosophy of those raising/handling them. This is not an uncommon problem even in the pet fish industry. All anyone cares about is keeping them alive long enough to sell them. As lefty o said, if they're arriving in bad shape, it's not a problem on your end. 

You might want to check around and see if anyone has a minnow pond in your area that they'd let you set up minnow traps in to become your own supplier. Minnow traps are pretty cheap and easily harvested. If you could find a local pond owner and work out an arrangement with them, you might have more success. Lots of pond owners get the idea to create their own bass pond and stock them with minnows and food fish for the bass, then fish out the adult bass, find the bass eggs/fry became food for the feeder fish and end up with a pond full of minnows and no bass. Finding one such pond nearby would be ideal for you. Set the minnow trap each day and harvest them on your way to open your shop.