Mass die-off after water change. What the @*&$% just happened???

[B1gJ4k3]

Tonight started like any other Thursday night—with a water change on my 125. I drained the tank down using a siphon through the FX4, gravel vacced a bit, scraped the glass, removed the FX4 and proceeded to clean it at the kitchen sink while the tank filled through a hose attached to my laundry room sink with water about 5 degrees cooler than the tank temp. Maybe I let the siphon go a little bit longer than I usually do, but I figured a little extra water couldn't hurt. It wasn't too much more than I usually do, though. I can only drain so far since the intake on the FX4 is so gigantic.

By the time I had gotten done cleaning the filter, the tank was almost full. I dosed the proper amount of Seachem Prime (about two capfuls-worth for what I figured was probably a 70-80 gallon water change--again, not terribly unusual for this tank.). I put the FX4 back under the tank, and hooked it up, waiting for the siphon from the outlet tube to fill itself back up before turning it back on.

Suddenly, I look up and see about half my fish are acting really weird. About half of my neon tetras are floating around like they're dead, my Boesemani rainbows are spiraling and swimming upside down and my Colombian tetras are looking discolored and sluggish. Some may have been near the surface, but I feel like that's not unusual for this time of day or after a water change. And they didn't really seem to be what I would call "gasping" for air. The platies, bristlenose, rummynose and angelfish seem relatively unphased, however.

I test all my parameters using both an API master test kit and ACO test strips on both my tank water and my tap water. Nothing seems too out of the ordinary. I do another dose of Prime to hopefully dechlorinate/detoxify things further if that is indeed the issue.

Within 15 minutes, I've lost 9 out of 12 Bosemani rainbows and one neon tetra. The dead-looking neons seem to have recovered, but now a few of the rummynose are kind of spiraling and having trouble swimming and my one big bristlenose seems to be breathing really fast. I added another airstone in case lack of oxygen may have been the issue, but I can't really see how that could have been the case.

I can only think of a couple things that could have cause this, but none of them are big enough of a red flag to convince me that's what the problem was:

1. Adding Prime too late on such a large water change? My water does have some ammonia in it (about 0.5ppm out of the tap), but I don't know if that would have made that much of a difference. I had done about a 50% water change earlier in the day on the 75 gallon in my garage (also with Boesemanis in it--about 70 of them) where I didn't put Prime in until later also and didn't have a problem. And I feel like this isn't the first time that I've forgotten to put Prime in until the end. Normally, I add half when I initially start filling and half when I'm finished.
2. Stirring up a gas pocket in gravel while I was vacuuming? I was under the impression that this only happens in tanks with fine sand and it's important to either have some fish that are going to stir up the substrate on their own or you need to do it manually when you clean the tank. It's a moderate to heavily-planted tank, so I don't gavel vac too often (maybe once every two months when things get gross) and even when I do, I really don't go too much below the surface because the gravel underneath my top layer can be a slightly different color and it bugs me when it shows through.
3. Lack of oxygen? There's a sponge filter in the tank that I leave running while the FX4 is draining specifically to keep things oxygenated during water changes. The water level goes go briefly lower than the top, but only at the very end when the water level is low and was probably only that way for 5-10 minutes. They've been without oxygen longer than that when the power goes out and once the tank was filled, a bunch of my plants were pearling.
4. Some kind of contaminate on my hands/arms? I don't use lotion or anything like that one days when I know I'm going to be water changing and regardless, I wash my hands fairly frequently and thoroughly on water change days anyway. And, as I said, I had done water changes in my garage earlier today without any issues and I can't think of any thing that I would have come in contact with in those few hours between. And for it to happen so quickly after I had my hands in the tank?
5. Some kind of contaminate in my water? But, again, big water changes in the garage just a few hours before on multiple tanks, one full of Boesemanis.

So...what the heck happened here??? I'd feel both better/worse if I knew what I did wrong, but honestly, I can't pinpoint one thing that would have made that big of a difference. My routine was 95% the same as it is every other time I do a water change on this tank (weekly) and clean the FX4 (monthly).

Anybody got any bright ideas here? What went wrong?

Edited August 12, 2022 by B1gJ4k3

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/11/2022 at 11:16 PM, B1gJ4k3 said:

By the time I had gotten done cleaning the filter, the tank was almost full. I dosed the proper amount of Seachem Prime (about two capfuls-worth for what I figured was probably a 70-80 gallon water change--again, not terribly unusual for this tank.). I put the FX4 back under the tank, and hooked it up, waiting for the siphon from the outlet tube to fill itself back up before turning it back on.

Always try to dose the tank PRIOR to adding new water.  I'm not saying this is the cause, still reading, but this is just something to note.
 

On 8/11/2022 at 11:16 PM, B1gJ4k3 said:

Suddenly, I look up and see about half my fish are acting really weird. About half of my neon tetras are floating around like they're dead, my Boesemani rainbows are spiraling and swimming upside down and my Colombian tetras are looking discolored and sluggish. Some may have been near the surface, but I feel like that's not unusual for this time of day or after a water change. And they didn't really seem to be what I would call "gasping" for air. The platies, bristlenose, rummynose and angelfish seem relatively unphased, however.

When you're doing the WC is there an airstone or anything running?  Is the tank static and you're removing 75% of the water?  I have had a tank in a similar situation and I honestly think the result of this is likely to be temp, PH, or aeration.  Gasping at the top usually leads to some sort of a swing in parameters.  KH and GH really don't cause issues like this.  Tapwater is clean so it's not Ammonia, Nitrite, or Nitrate.  This just leaves PH, Temp as your main causes.  Fish gasping could be either one..... Aeration, same thing.  I think Temp caused some swim bladder issues and that caused some deaths.  If I had to assume a reason, that would be where I start.  Especially with that big of a change.

 

 

On 8/11/2022 at 11:16 PM, B1gJ4k3 said:

• Adding Prime too late on such a large water change? My water does have some ammonia in it (about 0.5ppm out of the tap), but I don't know if that would have made that much of a difference. I had done about a 50% water change earlier in the day on the 75 gallon in my garage (also with Boesemanis in it--about 70 of them) where I didn't put Prime in until later also and didn't have a problem. And I feel like this isn't the first time that I've forgotten to put Prime in until the end. Normally, I add half when I initially start filling and half when I'm finished.
• Stirring up a gas pocket in gravel while I was vacuuming? I was under the impression that this only happens in tanks with fine sand and it's important to either have some fish that are going to stir up the substrate on their own or you need to do it manually when you clean the tank. It's a moderate to heavily-planted tank, so I don't gavel vac too often (maybe once every two months when things get gross) and even when I do, I really don't go too much below the surface because the gravel underneath my top layer can be a slightly different color and it bugs me when it shows through.
• Lack of oxygen? There's a sponge filter in the tank that I leave running while the FX4 is draining specifically to keep things oxygenated during water changes. The water level goes go briefly lower than the top, but only at the very end when the water level is low and was probably only that way for 5-10 minutes. They've been without oxygen longer than that when the power goes out and once the tank was filled, a bunch of my plants were pearling.
• Some kind of contaminate on my hands/arms? I don't use lotion or anything like that one days when I know I'm going to be water changing and regardless, I wash my hands fairly frequently and thoroughly on water change days anyway. And, as I said, I had done water changes in my garage earlier today without any issues and I can't think of any thing that I would have come in contact with in those few hours between. And for it to happen so quickly after I had my hands in the tank?
• Some kind of contaminate in my water? But, again, big water changes in the garage just a few hours before on multiple tanks, one full of Boesemanis.

1. potentially.
2. Very, very unlikely
3. Potentially, but unlikely
4. Potentially, but hard to determine.
5. Highly doubtful, but always a risk.

 

As someone who used to do the same thing on the big tank..... it would drain, I'd focus on the plants, etc.....  I would try to force yourself to 30-40% water changes for the sake of stability.  At worse, 50%.  Depending how thick the substrate looks, you might be doing 55-60% changes when you think you're doing 40% changes.  It's hard on the fish when everything isn't "perfect", but the number one thing for me was always to focus on temperature.  I'd literally spend 2-3 minutes tapping the faucet to get the mix right and adjusting it hairs at a time.  One or two degrees in either direction feels like lava or ice sometimes!

[Flumpweesel]

Did you test for chlorine?

(If you use liquid tests it's not picked up)

Could that be a factor you said the fish improved after the second dose of prime so I'm thinking it's related to something prime effects.

Sorry you had such a nightmare my thought was if the chlorine was higher than normal and you were very very unlucky. 

I know you said you did the other trank in the same way earlier but things can change in an instant. Or you added the prime marginally sooner and it made the difference. My water company barely uses chlorine but in summer my water can change as we switch between sources.

 

[Guppysnail]

My water company often does a mega chlorine dose. Usually I’m at 2 but when they do that it jumps to 4. I have to double dose at those times. They also randomly treat for other things I found the hard way and lost a ton of snails and shrimp once. 
possibly a mega chlorine dose coupled with extra large change and not adding prime until after?

Im lazy and forget to check tap chlorine levels every time so I have gotten in the habit of just double dosing since it does not hurt anything but my wallet. I pretreat in large bins it’s just how I’m set up right now but I always use to add dechlorinator first before filling prior to this setup. 

[face]

as said above its likely your water supplier changing something  they probably use chloramine (ammonia and chlorine mixed)so at any time they can change the amount of chloramine or increase the ammonia to chlorine ratio or increase the ph making ammonia more toxic if they did any of that plus the late (and maybe a little light) prime dosing and a larger than normal water changes that could have caused problems but that's just a guess you'll likely never know for sure sadly hopefully this was just some sort of perfect storm and won't happen again.

[B1gJ4k3]

On 8/11/2022 at 11:59 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

When you're doing the WC is there an airstone or anything running?

Yeah, there's a sponge filter running the whole time. Eventually, the water does get low enough that its below the aeration level of the sponge filter, but it doesn't last for long.

On 8/11/2022 at 11:59 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I think Temp caused some swim bladder issues and that caused some deaths.  If I had to assume a reason, that would be where I start.  Especially with that big of a change.

I had the temperature set pretty much where it always is when I water change (about 75). Tank temp should have been about 78-80, so not too big of a change. Again, though, on the water changes I did earlier in the day, the water turned out to be more like 66-67 once the faucet had leveled out. I didn't figure that out until I was filling my last tank.

On 8/12/2022 at 12:51 AM, Flumpweesel said:

Did you test for chlorine?

I mean...as best as I could, using the ACO test strips. I have found them to be pretty inaccurate (at least the batch that I got), but I would think if it was high enough to kill fish in 15 minutes of exposure, it would have registered at least something on the test.

Lost my big albino bristlenose this morning. That one hurts. I was trying to breed him. He was huge. He was freaky looking. He loved zucchini. RIP, Big Tuna... 😞

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/12/2022 at 7:30 AM, B1gJ4k3 said:

I had the temperature set pretty much where it always is when I water change (about 75). Tank temp should have been about 78-80, so not too big of a change. Again, though, on the water changes I did earlier in the day, the water turned out to be more like 66-67 once the faucet had leveled out. I didn't figure that out until I was filling my last tank.

That's tough.  Cooler always seems to be "easier" on the fish, and my biggest fear these days is that the outside temp is so hot compared to inside.  I honestly wish I could just condition water for tank use.  It's not something I can do in the current situation, but I think in the hobby moving forward this might be as critical as having a sump on a bigger tank.

On 8/12/2022 at 7:30 AM, B1gJ4k3 said:

I mean...as best as I could, using the ACO test strips. I have found them to be pretty inaccurate (at least the batch that I got), but I would think if it was high enough to kill fish in 15 minutes of exposure, it would have registered at least something on the test.

Lost my big albino bristlenose this morning. That one hurts. I was trying to breed him. He was huge. He was freaky looking. He loved zucchini. RIP, Big Tuna... 😞

If you don't mind, show off the tank and results?

I am very sorry for your losses.  It's always difficult and I always fear the worst when I see a little behavior change in my fish.  I hope things recover for you. 

The best thing I can offer for advice right now is to run carbon if there is any contamination and try to keep an eye on the things we discussed above. 

[modified lung]

All those symptoms sound like a rapid temperature change happened. Otherwise, if your fish in that tank already had a mild sickness, sometimes a big water change which they otherwise would have handled fine will send some of them over the edge over the next few days.

[anewbie]

I could be temp. change but i doubt it - a large temp change (10 degree for example) will shock the fishes but gasping is usually a sign of poison - chlorine or similar. Btw in my sad experience temp change will usually cause a die off over the next couple of days to weeks - not an immediate death. Oxygen could be a problem but I don't think that is what happened here. I'm pretty sure these fishes were poisoned - either chlorine or something else in the water. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by anewbie

[Ron Uni]

Did you change a media bag of purigen? 

[B1gJ4k3]

On 8/15/2022 at 6:59 AM, Ron Uni said:

Did you change a media bag of purigen? 

No, I don't use Purigen in any of my tanks.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/12/2022 at 2:16 AM, B1gJ4k3 said:

Adding Prime too late on such a large water change? My water does have some ammonia in it (about 0.5ppm out of the tap), but I don't know if that would have made that much of a difference. I had done about a 50% water change earlier in the day on the 75 gallon in my garage (also with Boesemanis in it--about 70 of them) where I didn't put Prime in until later also and didn't have a problem. And I feel like this isn't the first time that I've forgotten to put Prime in until the end. Normally, I add half when I initially start filling and half when I'm finished.

When I change water, I dose dechlorinator into the tank before any tap water is introduced.  That way I can be sure that anything harmful gets detoxified instantly.  Here is a video explaining how to refill a tank with a Python.  At 4:27 the guy adds the water conditioner at the same time the new water is going in. 

http://www.pythonproducts.com/videos.html

Adding Prime late coupled with less filtration at the time of the issue may be the culprit?

Plus the water company can probably change stuff whenever they want to; I prefer not to rely on things staying consistent at the tap.

I'm so sorry for your loss.  I know it's upsetting.  Please try not to beat yourself up.  You were doing the right thing, doing your maintenance, trying to keep good quality water for your pets.  It's just that sometimes doing stuff out of order has an impact on them, plus that water company variable thrown in there - who knows what they do?  Honestly, this could, and often does, happen to anybody.

[_Eric_]

I have heard that when dosing prime into the tank during a water change, you should dose for the full volume of the tank and not just the amount of the new water. I don’t know that to be fact but may be something to do going forward.  
 

also, I think 2 capfuls would be for 40 gallons, but if you haven’t had issue before I am not positive this is the problem.

It is hard to tell what really happened which I know is frustrating.  Sorry this happened to you.

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by _Eric_

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/15/2022 at 9:02 AM, _Eric_ said:

I have heard that when dosing prime into the tank during a water change, you should dose for the full volume of the tank and not just the amount of the new water. I don’t know that to be fact but may be something to do going forward.  

Correct, and adding more than you need will not be an issue.

On 8/15/2022 at 8:23 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Adding Prime too late on such a large water change? My water does have some ammonia in it (about 0.5ppm out of the tap), but I don't know if that would have made that much of a difference.

Considering you have ammonia from the tap, it takes 2-5 minutes for prime to do it's thing, and you're slowly adding water over time....  it can be reasonably assumed that the fish were exposed to ammonia in this situation.  Especially with such a high volume of water and % volume change.  That amount of ammonia isn't small.  There is more to dig into here, but also keep in mind that when you're using prime to detoxify ammonia it has slightly higher dosing instructions and can be dosed up to 5x the normal dose.

Apologies for the weird quote messing up, the text is what I was trying to comment on!

 

Quote

If Prime® is removing ammonia from the system, won’t that starve the beneficial bacteria?

A: Prime® does not remove ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate from the system. It simply binds with those compounds making them harmless to the inhabitants and still bioavailable to the beneficial bacteria.

Quote

When should I use the emergency dose of 5 x the recommended amount of Prime®?

A: If your ammonia or nitrite levels are above 2 ppm, you can safely use up to 5 x the recommended amount.

Quote

I tested my tap water after using Prime® and came up with an ammonia reading. Is this because of chloramine? Could you explain how this works in removing chloramine?

A: Prime® works by removing chlorine from the water and then binds with ammonia until it can be consumed by your biological filtration (chloramine minus chlorine = ammonia). The bond is not reversible and ammonia is still available for your bacteria to consume. Prime® will not halt your cycling process.

I am going to assume that you were using a liquid based reagent test kit (Nessler based, silica). Any type of reducing agent or ammonia binder (dechlorinators, etc) will give you a false positive. You can avoid this by using our MultiTest^™ Ammonia kit (not affected by reducing agents) or you can wait to test, Prime® dissipates from your system within 24 hours.

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by nabokovfan87
added quotes

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/15/2022 at 12:30 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

adding more than you need will not be an issue.

As long as oxygenation is there.  Dechlorinators reduce the oxygen levels in the water. (See 7:00 in video)

 

 

On 8/15/2022 at 12:30 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

it takes 2-5 minutes for prime to do it's thing

Yep. A lot of people "age" their water in buckets with dechlorinator for a few minutes.  I didn't use to do that, but just as an example:

I started to age my water because I noticed a bunch of snails laying on their backs after water changes.  I thought maybe the current of the water going in was the problem, knocking them over, but it would take them some time to start moving again.  However, when I age the water (ie: I'll go clean test tubes or something while water sits with dechlorinator in the bucket), THEN add it to tank, there is no effect on the snails.

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/15/2022 at 9:55 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Yep. A lot of people "age" their water in buckets with dechlorinator for a few minutes.  I didn't use to do that, but just as an example:

Agreed. Especially having Ammonia (if it's not chloramines) in the tap, then you'd want to let that gas off as much as possible before going into the tank. Minimum 24 hours.

[Patrick_G]

So sorry about your fish! 
 

I don’t have any theories that haven’t already been suggested. @Flumpweeseland @Guppysnail mentioned swings in the amount of chlorine added to water systems or the addition of chloramine. I agree that’s the most likely culprit, but who knows? It might be worth sending a water sample for a lab analysis. 

[Crash_2011]

im not sure if this is this the same thing but I did the same thing with my 29gal tank and my Amano shrimp started swimming in circles and floating like they was dying I did end up losing two of them plus my cherry shrimp that was in there I was told it was PH poisoning i never thought of PH being off that bad cuz it has never been off that much but I checked another tank before I changed water and PH was way off Im not sure if this helps out but I was told if it happens again to quickly drain have water and start a drip acclimated the rest of the water into tank 

[Wrencher_Scott]

I bet chlorine. I have noticed my tap water smells like my swimming pool lately!

It is common practice for water companies or the city to super chlorinate esp in the summer time. 

I always mix my refill water in my 30 gallon trash can, test it for chlorine, before I add it to the tank. The last few times it has needed way extra dechlore!

It is not going to be water temp unless it was very cold like 66 degrees, and highly unlikely aeration unless it's from a well. 

Oh, I nearly forgot, I just got an email from them last week, take a look.

Dear Cal Water customer:  

Some Cal Water customers may temporarily experience a different taste and odor to their water, due to rising temperatures and algae in the Kern River, from which we obtain water. We treat the water to make it safe to use and drink. While unpleasant, please be assured that the taste and odor are aesthetic issues only; we rigorously monitor water quality, and your water continues to meet all federal and state standards set to protect public health. 

In the meantime, you can refrigerate an open pitcher of water, which will help the odor dissipate faster. If it does not clear or you have any concerns, please Contact Us. 

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and thank you for your patience during this time 

Sincerely, 

[MrWestCoast]

What does your city water get treated with? Chloramines can easily kill fish within 30 min if left untreated. My water is treated with chloramines and I forgot to treat my water with prime for 45 min. I lost a couple of fish and the rest recovered. Treat the tank before you fill it and after. At least that's how I do it now.

Chlorine takes a bit longer to harm your fish. Chloramines will prevent red blood cells from carrying oxygen throughout the body once it enters the blood stream.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

1) this is tragic and I am very sorry for your losses, it stings each day as the time goes by as one little loss after another chips away at your confidence as an aquarist 

2) I’d say this was most likely a confluence of events one or all of the following - a big shift in temp, pH, ammonia, chlorine and or chloramine plus perhaps another factor from your local water company plus a huge water change and some additional gravel vacuuming above the normal which may have taken away just that right amount of bacteria needed to soften the blow and bam 💥 

3) You’re never going to figure all of it out but checking with the water company to see if there were any recent changes in their process would be smart. Check with the LFS see if other hobbyists reported something similar recently.  

4) you’ve gotten some good theories and some good advice above, use what you want, regroup and try again that’s what aquarists do best. 

5) I can honestly say I’ve been there done this and bought this t-shirt, grieve, take your time in analyzing things and come to your own conclusions then start the rebuilding process. 

We’re here for you if you just want to rant or vent this is a good spot. If you have questions you know we’ll have answers, whether they’re the right ones well nobodies perfect!? Take care of yourself and the survivors it’s all you can do. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/16/2022 at 10:08 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

Dear Cal Water customer:  

Some Cal Water customers may temporarily experience a different taste and odor to their water, due to rising temperatures and algae in the Kern River, from which we obtain water. We treat the water to make it safe to use and drink. While unpleasant, please be assured that the taste and odor are aesthetic issues only; we rigorously monitor water quality, and your water continues to meet all federal and state standards set to protect public health. 

In the meantime, you can refrigerate an open pitcher of water, which will help the odor dissipate faster. If it does not clear or you have any concerns, please Contact Us. 

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause and thank you for your patience during this time 

Sincerely, 

well.... this sucks.  Explains a lot. Confirms some things. But this sucks.

by "confirms some things" I'm referring to the algae issues in my tanks 😞 

related: https://kernvalleysun.com/stories/590397920-kern-county-public-health-issues-advisory-for-lake-isabella-algal-blooms

[Wrencher_Scott]

On 8/19/2022 at 11:49 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

well.... this sucks.  Explains a lot. Confirms some things. But this sucks.

by "confirms some things" I'm referring to the algae issues in my tanks 😞 

related: https://kernvalleysun.com/stories/590397920-kern-county-public-health-issues-advisory-for-lake-isabella-algal-blooms

I don't understand. What do you mean the algae in your tanks? You put water from Lake Isabella in your tanks? 

My point was chlorine is a fish killer and they put lots of it in our water, especially in the summer time. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/20/2022 at 4:32 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

I don't understand. What do you mean the algae in your tanks? You put water from Lake Isabella in your tanks? 

California water.  I am having algae issues after the move based on a variety of reasons.  My assumption is.... they are lingering issues because of what the city is doing to the water.  I have had PH/KH swings, GH swings, and "randomly" have had some nitrate / algae bloom issues.

[anewbie]

I haven't read the thread; but the problem was almost certainly dosing prime after you add the water. THe fishes would have been in serious trouble while the tank was filling. I have a 120 with an fx6. I frequently turn off all the filters while doing water changes because the level of the water drops too low. I actually put the new water into a large rubber maid pail (34 gallons) and add prime to it before pumping it into the tank (I also do this for temp control) which is more important during the winter. I then pump the pail into the tank and refill. The fishes are fine if the filters are off for an hour. 

 

If the temp changes more than 3 or 4 degrees (really depends on species) that can seriously impact the fishes but usually they will bloat and die a few weeks later. It would take a pretty severe temp change to have an immediate effect.

-

When i clean the fx6 i use tap water and it is usually off for 60 or 90 minutes and never had an issue. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by anewbie