75g Blackwater Amazon River Biotope Stocking

[asondhi]

Hi friends!

I'm in the stocking phase of my (acquirable) dream aquarium! A 75g Amazon River biotope tank!

Here's my current plan but I am actively seeking feedback and advice!

Centerpiece: School of angelfish (of course)
Contrast: School of rummynose tetras! (I think the schooling and activity of the rummynose beside the angelfish will be visually appealing!)
Top dweller/oddball: Hatchetfish (they're just neat in my opinion!)
Bottom dweller/cleanup: Corydoras and BN plecos (honestly don't know enough about them to have selected a specific Cory species yet)

As for plants:
- Amazon sword (duh)
- Amazon frogbit (any plant with Amazon in the name is mandatory, right?)
- Jungle Valisineria
- Scarlet Temple (that red contrast!)
- S. Repens (I love crypts but they're not very Amazon so S. Repens is the next best??)
- Dwarf chain sword (maybe??? idk)

I really would like a more substantial cleanup crew- I'm not sure if there's much else that fits into this tank (besides snails) but would be happy to get some suggestions. So far the detrivores and scavengers are the backbone of my planted 29g. They love the decaying plant matter so much, it'd be a shame to include so much of it without any fish to enjoy it!

Excited to hear everyone's experiences! 

Edited August 7, 2022 by asondhi

[Colu]

You could add some bristlenose pleco for clean up they would do well in that setup if you going for a pure biotope the only south American snails a have seen are Columbian giant ramshorn snails

[asondhi]

On 8/7/2022 at 5:48 PM, Colu said:

You could add some bristlenose pleco for clean up

I didn't even realize they were an SA fish! Love it. I've already got a male BN in my 29g, may just get a female and let them do their thing! 

[Colu]

On 8/7/2022 at 10:58 PM, asondhi said:

I didn't even realize they were an SA fish! Love it. I've already got a male BN in my 29g, may just get a female and let them do their thing! 

my pair breed every other week it seem like I have about two hundred fry at the moment they breed like rabbits just make sure you have some were to take the fry my LFS  take my bristlenose fry

[Friller]

How about some apistogramma on the bottom? There is countless awesome and colourful species 

Watch out for the frogbit. It's one of the world's worst invasive species. One little bit that escapes in a water change can cause this

On 8/8/2022 at 8:41 AM, Colu said:

my pair breed every other week it seem like I have about two hundred fry at the moment they breed like rabbits just make sure you have some were to take the fry my LFS  take my bristlenose fry

What's your secret!! My pair refuses to breed! They bred twice and that's been it. 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Friller

[BradfordAquatics]

I also think a pair of apistos would be a fantastic addition!

[Odd Duck]

Otocinclus are also South American, which I can’t believe I had forgotten.  I’ve got a group in QT now to add to my angelfish tank.  I’m also going to cheat and add Amano shrimp (adding after “dark” and angels are “in bed”).  I figure there’s going to be some sort of clear little shrimp in South America but since I’m not having any luck at all with finding anything confirmed safe and available, I’m willing to cheat that far for clear to slightly brownish shrimp that I know are good, safe cleaners.

Overall I like your list.  It pretty much matches my list but I’ve given up on growing both Alternanthera reineckii (Scarlet Temple) and Staurogyne repens in deep water with my light.  Neither has done well for me but I’ll be the first to admit I’ve done poorly with most stem plants I’ve tried.  I hope you have better luck.  I’m hoping for better coverage and at least a little contrast in texture with my dwarf Sag.

[asondhi]

On 8/8/2022 at 4:55 PM, Odd Duck said:

Otocinclus are also South American, which I can’t believe I had forgotten.  I’ve got a group in QT now to add to my angelfish tank.  I’m also going to cheat and add Amano shrimp (adding after “dark” and angels are “in bed”).  I figure there’s going to be some sort of clear little shrimp in South America but since I’m not having any luck at all with finding anything confirmed safe and available, I’m willing to cheat that far for clear to slightly brownish shrimp that I know are good, safe cleaners.

Overall I like your list.  It pretty much matches my list but I’ve given up on growing both Alternanthera reineckii (Scarlet Temple) and Staurogyne repens in deep water with my light.  Neither has done well for me but I’ll be the first to admit I’ve done poorly with most stem plants I’ve tried.  I hope you have better luck.  I’m hoping for better coverage and at least a little contrast in texture with my dwarf Sag.

I've got some big plans for lighting so I'm hoping Scarlet temple works... strangely enough even my high-tech tank hasn't done great w/ S. Repens

[Colu]

On 8/8/2022 at 12:00 AM, Friller said:

How about some apistogramma on the bottom? There is countless awesome and colourful species 

Watch out for the frogbit. It's one of the world's worst invasive species. One little bit that escapes in a water change can cause this

What's your secret!! My pair refuses to breed! They bred twice and that's been it. 

I found feeding varied diet rich in vegetable matter and some higher protein foods works best  I feed mine a mixture of cucumber blanched spinach and lettuce hikari algae wafers EBO algae wafers repashy solient green and super green  and twice a week feeding of higher protein food frozen blood worms EBO youngster grow paste that has 62% protein  

[asondhi]

On 8/8/2022 at 4:55 PM, Odd Duck said:

Otocinclus are also South American, which I can’t believe I had forgotten.  I’ve got a group in QT now to add to my angelfish tank.  I’m also going to cheat and add Amano shrimp (adding after “dark” and angels are “in bed”).  I figure there’s going to be some sort of clear little shrimp in South America but since I’m not having any luck at all with finding anything confirmed safe and available, I’m willing to cheat that far for clear to slightly brownish shrimp that I know are good, safe cleaners.

Overall I like your list.  It pretty much matches my list but I’ve given up on growing both Alternanthera reineckii (Scarlet Temple) and Staurogyne repens in deep water with my light.  Neither has done well for me but I’ll be the first to admit I’ve done poorly with most stem plants I’ve tried.  I hope you have better luck.  I’m hoping for better coverage and at least a little contrast in texture with my dwarf Sag.

What do you use for substrate by the way? I'm thinking just some sand with crushed lava rock underneath/along the back for some additional surface area/height/filler

[Biotope Biologist]

On 8/9/2022 at 5:58 AM, asondhi said:

What do you use for substrate by the way? I'm thinking just some sand with crushed lava rock underneath/along the back for some additional surface area/height/filler

For substrate I would go with a brown sand mixed with organic soil. This will create the desired look. You can also boil your own leaf litter as you will likely go through alot. All the plant matter  decay will release acid in the water and lower your pH.

 

plecos create more mess than they consume. For a clean up crew I would try stocking the tank with detritus worms, amphipods, and perhaps some aquatic isopods. Let them grow  their population before adding fish. Snails will struggle in an acidic environment.

 

Another fish I really enjoy for amazon biotopes are banjo cats. A vast majority of them stay under 2” in size and are fun to watch digging through the leaf litter. Plus they have great camouflage so can stay out of the angelfishes way when they inevitably get aggressive over their spawning sites.

 

Amazon biotopes are a passion of mine let me know if you have further questions 

[Brandon p]

On 8/7/2022 at 5:48 PM, Colu said:

You could add some bristlenose pleco for clean up they would do well in that setup if you going for a pure biotope the only south American snails a have seen are Columbian giant ramshorn snails

Pomacea bridgesii, common names the spike-topped apple snail or mystery snail, is a South American species of freshwater snail with gills and an operculum, an aquaticgastropod mollusk in the family Ampullariidae.

The native distribution of this snail is Bolivia, Brazil, Paraguayand Peru

Edited August 9, 2022 by Brandon p

[Brandon p]

There are tons of apple snails from the Amazon river basin. On most states Columbian giantramshorn snails are not legal. I don’t personally care I’m not the snail polices. Many species of Apple snail are form to Amazon that have destroyed some of Floridas wetlands along with Colombian ramshorn

[Odd Duck]

On 8/9/2022 at 7:58 AM, asondhi said:

What do you use for substrate by the way? I'm thinking just some sand with crushed lava rock underneath/along the back for some additional surface area/height/filler

I have a clay dense soil about 1/2”-3/4” thick (trying for a nutrient sink) sprinkled with Osmocote Smart-Release Plant Food Plus Indoor & Outdoor Granules then covered with about 2” of light tan pool filter sand.  I had every intention of going with a bunch of leaf litter but I’ve discovered that I just don’t like the look of it that much plus that much material rotting in a tank has caused issues for me in the past with algae.  My tank is more “habitat” than true biotope.  I’ve got some slope but not a lot.  I’ve used some petrified wood to give a bit more depth and some levels.

[IanB]

On 8/7/2022 at 3:42 PM, asondhi said:

Centerpiece: School of angelfish (of course)

For your angels, I would take a long look at leopoldi (https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pterophyllum-leopoldi/) rather than the common scalars or the (imo) too-large-for-a-75 altums. They are more active, in my experience than scalare, have stunning blue iridescence in their trailers and body, and stay significantly smaller than scalare so are a nice scale for a 75 gallon that will have other fish in there. They can be a little hard to come by, but there a few good online retailers that carry them regularly (pm me if you want names). They are the centerpiece of my own (loosely) Amazonian 75g. Mine is more "Amazon-inspired" than biotope, so I have clearwater and clithon corona/siamese algae eaters that are not region-appropriate to help the otos. Otherwise I stocked with 6 leopoldi, a large school of cardinals, and small schools of embers and diamond tetras. I have a pair of apistos and a half dozen cories patrolling the bottom (and a couple blue acaras hanging out until they move to another tank). Pics are just after setup with leopoldi and cardinals and more recently as plants, algae, and other fish have invaded.

 

[asondhi]

On 8/10/2022 at 1:37 PM, IanB said:

For your angels, I would take a long look at leopoldi (https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pterophyllum-leopoldi/) rather than the common scalars or the (imo) too-large-for-a-75 altums. They are more active, in my experience than scalare, have stunning blue iridescence in their trailers and body, and stay significantly smaller than scalare so are a nice scale for a 75 gallon that will have other fish in there. They can be a little hard to come by, but there a few good online retailers that carry them regularly (pm me if you want names). They are the centerpiece of my own (loosely) Amazonian 75g. Mine is more "Amazon-inspired" than biotope, so I have clearwater and clithon corona/siamese algae eaters that are not region-appropriate to help the otos. Otherwise I stocked with 6 leopoldi, a large school of cardinals, and small schools of embers and diamond tetras. I have a pair of apistos and a half dozen cories patrolling the bottom (and a couple blue acaras hanging out until they move to another tank). Pics are just after setup with leopoldi and cardinals and more recently as plants, algae, and other fish have invaded.

 

Gorgeous tank, thank you for the advice. Going back and forth about putting acaras in my 75 but thinking it'd push overstocked with them. 

[IanB]

On 8/10/2022 at 2:47 PM, asondhi said:

Gorgeous tank, thank you for the advice. Going back and forth about putting acaras in my 75 but thinking it'd push overstocked with them. 

Yeah, my aquarium is definitely technically "overstocked" by most rules of thumb/calculators, BUT because the fish complement each other, are mostly non-aggressive, and the tank is HEAVILY planted (providing both plenty of hiding spots/line of sight blocks and natural filtration) it is no issue at all. In fact, even though I fertilize my tank daily, it runs at 0 nitrates/0 nitrites constantly, and I am actually going to have to increase my fertilization (I do use lean/ADA-style ferts in the form of APT 0 for 24 hour aquarist... don't come after me, I use Easy Green for all my other tanks!). That being said, the acaras can get to be several inches, so I do have another tank they can move to when needed. Right now they are model community tank inhabitants, but I'm prepared if that changes. As Cory often says, overstocked doesn't mean anything in a vacuum... it is all about how you set up and maintain your tank.

@asondhiJust saw that you have a Walstad tank... so you more than know what I am talking about!

[asondhi]

On 8/10/2022 at 3:20 PM, IanB said:

@asondhiJust saw that you have a Walstad tank... so you more than know what I am talking about! 

Haha honestly it was one of those things that just naturally happened without me actively trying at first. I have more issues with my other tanks, both high tech and low tech, with balancing and dosing ferts and everything else in between... I decided to take the advice of not chasing parameters and letting nature do its thing and it just took off. It's been months since my last water change and parameters are steady, pH is stable. It is crazy what nature does when left alone! 

[anewbie]

Some comments:

 

I would skip leopoldi or get at most two. First they are more sensitive to water condition et all and i'm not sure of the parameters of your water. Second they are much more aggressive.

 

As an amazon biotope you would want kh 0-1, gh 0-1, tds < 60; i would say typically blackwater but you might not want to go that far. 

You want very little current if trying to reproduce angelfish native homes. 

An adult angelfish can eat rummynose so be aware that a few  might be snacked on.

Many pleco (not all)  natively live in rivers with more current than where angelfishes are found. If you really want a pleco i'd at least go for something interesting. 

There are many interesting catfish including cory, red tail lizard, whiptails, .... I'm not sure which species of catfishes are found natively near angelfishes but remember angelfishes are a warm water fish so if a fish is a cold water fish (looking at popular panda cory); it is likely not found near angelfishes.

All wild species of angelfishes (there are 3 species); will demand 82-85 range; domestically bred angelfishes can handle cooler waters (78).

 

Remember fishes behavior change when they reach sexual maturity. That cuddly anglefish that was dime size might become a vicious monster when it is fully grown and 6 inches. Take this into account when stocking the tank. 

As for apisto species it depends on water condition and temp - there are a bit over 100 species. I would avoid common (in)bred species like cockatoo and look for something a bit more interesting. I might recommend a few once water conditions are known.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by anewbie

[asondhi]

On 8/10/2022 at 3:46 PM, anewbie said:

I might recommend a few once water conditions are known

Thank you for the general advice and insight- I do forget that w/ cichlids and other fish with strong personalities that sexual maturity can bring aggression- I'll keep this in mind. 

My tap water parameters are as follows: 6.5 pH, near 0 KH, 5 dGH. The water does not show any nitrate/nitrite/ammonia/heavy metals out of the tap and my city uses chlorine (not chloramine).

So far I have been buffering my 29g with some crushed coral for the health of my snails/shrimp, but I otherwise don't do anything to my water besides dechlorinate. I do add leaf litter and other botanicles but do so slowly while monitoring pH. 

 

On 8/10/2022 at 3:46 PM, anewbie said:

An adult angelfish can eat rummynose so be aware that a few  might be snacked on.

I was under the impression that d/t the schooling nature of Rummynose this is a lot less likely- obviously wherever there is potential for snacking it is bound to happen- given my parameters do you have alternate suggestions? I'd be open to different fish if the tank would be more harmonious

[anewbie]

On 8/10/2022 at 3:27 PM, asondhi said:

Thank you for the general advice and insight- I do forget that w/ cichlids and other fish with strong personalities that sexual maturity can bring aggression- I'll keep this in mind. 

My tap water parameters are as follows: 6.5 pH, near 0 KH, 5 dGH. The water does not show any nitrate/nitrite/ammonia/heavy metals out of the tap and my city uses chlorine (not chloramine).

So far I have been buffering my 29g with some crushed coral for the health of my snails/shrimp, but I otherwise don't do anything to my water besides dechlorinate. I do add leaf litter and other botanicles but do so slowly while monitoring pH. 

 

I was under the impression that d/t the schooling nature of Rummynose this is a lot less likely- obviously wherever there is potential for snacking it is bound to happen- given my parameters do you have alternate suggestions? I'd be open to different fish if the tank would be more harmonious

I'm not an expert with tetras but I do know that serape tend to be more active than the other large body tetras i've kept (such as white fin rosy). Also if you raise the rummy with the angels they are less likely to snack on them but an adult male can be quite large and is capable of such. There are many tetra species in size between rummynose and serape - but one unique aspect to rummy is they love to school (very active) - many species tend to just sort of sit around looking pretty. Of the torpedo shaped tetra I believe  black neon tetra which are a bit larger but not by a wide margin - i'm unsure if an adult male can eat an adult black neon but i suspect if motivated he could but not too likely - of course once you have a nice school of black neon you can't safely add young ones to the group as they would be perfect snack size.

-

Your water is not super soft but it is fairly soft.  If you want some apisto i would consider domesticated macmasteri  or agassiz. I'd recommend two or three (if three then 1 m 2 f). They can easily co-exist with angels since they prefer lower reaches - however successful breeding (if that is your aim) will be difficult esp if you get other bottom dwellers like cory. Both macmasteri and agassiz are comfortable in whitewater and are fairly large. Another option would be hongsloi. All three of the mentioned species are harem breeders (cockatoo are also harem breeders though i have develop a dislike for them). 

[CrashBandit05]

I've got a 29gal that I've sort of set up to be a blackwater amazon theme. I'm unfortunately limited to my stocking options at my LFS but right now I have 4 corys, 2 german blue rams, 4 black neon tetras, and 1 clown pleco. I know they aren't all SA species but it's a start. The substrate is caribsea moonlight sand. The temperature stays around 80 plus/minus so my plant variety is small. Tons of driftwood for tannins, few anubias on driftwood and tons of amazon frogbit floaters. I love the darker look with the tannins and floaters blocking light!

Edited August 10, 2022 by CrashBandit05

[IanB]

On 8/10/2022 at 3:46 PM, anewbie said:

I would skip leopoldi or get at most two. First they are more sensitive to water condition et all and i'm not sure of the parameters of your water. Second they are much more aggressive.

 

This has not been my experience (or in line with most of my research). While they don't like hard water, they are actually quite tolerant of almost all tropical temps, rather than needing to be in the 80s. In addition, my experience (again, this is just me) is that you want either 1 leopoldi or a small school (5-6+). If you just get two leopoldi the dominant one will focus aggression on the other (unless you happen to get a bonded mated pair). With more (I have 6), any aggression is spread out and no single fish is targeted repeatedly. I tend to agree with seriouslyfish.com (https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pterophyllum-leopoldi/) that leopoldi are actually the angels most suited to a community tank. That being said, everyone has their own experience and does their own research, so perhaps @anwebie's experience will be more in line with what you are looking for.

[anewbie]

On 8/11/2022 at 12:28 PM, IanB said:

This has not been my experience (or in line with most of my research). While they don't like hard water, they are actually quite tolerant of almost all tropical temps, rather than needing to be in the 80s. In addition, my experience (again, this is just me) is that you want either 1 leopoldi or a small school (5-6+). If you just get two leopoldi the dominant one will focus aggression on the other (unless you happen to get a bonded mated pair). With more (I have 6), any aggression is spread out and no single fish is targeted repeatedly. I tend to agree with seriouslyfish.com (https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pterophyllum-leopoldi/) that leopoldi are actually the angels most suited to a community tank. That being said, everyone has their own experience and does their own research, so perhaps @anwebie's experience will be more in line with what you are looking for.

Ok then my experience might be the exception. I found when they grew up the tank wasn't large enough to support a group and there was a lot of fighting. The aquarium was 4 ft but maybe i needed a 6 foot aquarium? As kids a group works great but it was that transition at maturity that trigger problems. It also might have been related to the mix i had. 

Then again it could have been the dynamics in the group. 

-

Not quite the same because this example is with angels but i'm watching my adult male angelfish - when he was not top dog he was a terror showing aggression towards everything that came near him but now that the alpha angel is gone; he has actually become extremely peaceful and tolerant of new angels added to the aquarium (which was a real concern i had given his previous behavior). He has also become much more 'people friendly'.

-

Going back to the leopoldi - it very well might be that my experience was the exception but i found them intolerable about 6 months after maturity.

-

Btw i am curious as to your experience with angels if you kept them. Most people say they should be kept in  large groups but again I've found that over time the dynamics are just not sustainable in a 4 foot aquarium regardless of numbers - if mixed sexes. In about 8 months I'll be setting up two large aquariums - one that is 10 foot long and 3 foot wide and another 8 foot long and 4 feet wide and I  will be able to play with different configurations and maybe i'll try leopoldi again.

-

Btw were your leopoldi tank raised or wild ?

Edited August 11, 2022 by anewbie

[IanB]

@anewbieMine were wild-caught leopoldi. I have, however, only kept six of them and, in my experience, and as you suggest, angelfish have very individual temperaments and personalities. I have one clearly dominant male angel, but none of the others challenge him at all. He periodically makes little "charges" toward the other leopoldi but never makes contact and they dart off. My tank is only a 75g but it is *very* heavily planted to the point that fish can hide for days without being seen in the back half, with the front mostly open for swimming. I have found that, contrary to my research, they do really well with large diamond tetras who laugh off the leopoldi's aggression, getting them to seemingly leave everyone else alone. The leopoldis did eat every amano shrimp of a group of 40 I put in (all small--my expensive error) but have been fine with tetras as small as embers and horned nerite snails. I could just have gotten lucky with this group, though. Given your experience, scalare might be the safer option, since so many people have success with them and the leopoldi are just less known.