Bottom-dweller suggestions for hard water?

[Tayturs]

Hello all!

I have recently set up a 29g that will be housing a trio of red swordtails with the casual hopes of producing some fry. I would also like to put some bottom-dwellers in if I can swing it, since it is a larger tank that what I'm used to and there are many species I've never gotten to keep. That said, I only want to add them if they can thrive in the conditions I will be prioritizing for the swordtails.

PH will be in the 7.4-8.0 range
Water will be treated with Seachem Equilibrium to be on the harder side
Substrate is black sand with some pagoda rock, no driftwood. Moderately planted and I expect the sprite and swords to fill in over time (not sure if I'm actually planting the hairgrass bunch shown in the picture)

Suggestions should preferably not be a risk to swordtail fry, not spend most time hiding and not uproot plants. 

Thanks in advance for any advice given!!

[nabokovfan87]

Panda Corys and plenty of other varieties of corys are perfect to go with swordtails.  Both of them like cooler water.

Edited July 20, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Tayturs]

On 7/20/2022 at 2:44 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Panda Corys and plenty of other varieties of corys are perfect to go with swordtails.  Both of them like cooler water.

I like Smudge Spot or Sterbai, but I was concerned they might not like harder water... or that they might hide? Do you have experience with these?

I also like chain loaches but am not sure if the tank size is adequate for a group of them 🤔

[Brandon p]

The Ph is pretty high for most corys but they are pretty adaptable. Ph of 8 pretty high for them. I’m not saying it won’t work I think probably will. Im sure people many keep them at that level. I just wanted you to know. It also sounds like it’s not at that Al the time. They are active bottom fish but like to be in grounds of 5 or more if you can. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/20/2022 at 2:57 PM, Tayturs said:

I like Smudge Spot or Sterbai, but I was concerned they might not like harder water... or that they might hide? Do you have experience with these?

pretty much.... it's going to depend on how many you get.  More of them means they will be a bit more confident in how they behave. They like to have cover. mine are literally out all the time.  I have ~30 pandas and 5-10 of them are shoaling all the time, all day long.  I see them checking out the wood and looking for food all the time.  Your scape is good for corydoras in the sense that they have room.  That being said, they don't have cover.  The plants would provide that for them and you'll always see them.  You can check out the photos of my tank in my journal and it'll be similar in behavior to that tank.

The other tank I have has red lava rock with mopani over it (creating the cover) and that's where the panda corys are at.

On 7/20/2022 at 2:57 PM, Brandon p said:

Ph of 8 pretty high for them. I

agreed.

[Brandon p]

The pandas are better than the Sterbai and Smudge pot courts are really low ph corys and tend to max at 7 ph. No Cory is idea but I think pandas aren’t a bad choice. The will be active.

[kahjtheundedicated]

How hard are we talking? According to Seriously Fish, Bronze Corydoras are tolerant up to a PH of 8 and 268 PPM of GH.

For comparison, panda corys are stated to be tolerant up to a PH of 7.4 and 214 PPM of GH.

[Brandon p]

Bronze will get way to big for a 30. You can't have more than 2 or 3 because fill gown 3 . are not going to be happy they want to be in a group bigger than two. The panda will be good you can 5 in a 5 no problems. bronze corys next to a six inch gourami. They are way to big and lazy for a 30 I think. @Taytursyou are going to have to decide.

Moss guidelines are that guide lines with many from how the fish where raised in the wild.  Keep the co-op web page maybe hillstream loaches would fit you.

[Tayturs]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:43 PM, Brandon p said:

Bronze will get way to big for a 30. You can't have more than 2 or 3 because fill gown 3 . are not going to be happy they want to be in a group bigger than two. The panda will be good you can 5 in a 5 no problems. bronze corys next to a six inch gourami. They are way to big and lazy for a 30 I think. @Taytursyou are going to have to decide.

Moss guidelines are that guide lines with many from how the fish where raised in the wild.  Keep the co-op web page maybe hillstream loaches would fit you.

I definitely don’t want anything that will get too big. Good to know that pandas seem to be better fits than my other preferences. They are pleasant looking also, and I hadn’t considered them so this thread has been enlightening 😄

At this point I think my best bet is to wait for the swords to arrive and let them settle for a few weeks, so I can see what exact pH and hardness I can stably maintain. And if I feel like I want more activity in the tank, reconsider my options at that point. I am also visiting my LFS tomorrow so I will see what I have available to me locally. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/20/2022 at 2:41 PM, Tayturs said:

PH will be in the 7.4-8.0 range

I would start by verifying your PH before you decide.

1. Take a sample of water from the tap, test KH, GH, PH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates
2.  Aerate that same sample for 24 hours with an airstone and retest.  This would be your actual water chemistry after off-gassing.
3.  Compare results from #2 to your tank.

Edited July 21, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[_Eric_]

I agree that the panda corys would be a good fit and will be happy despite recommended ranges you may see online.  I would also recommend you consider a group of otocinclus.  I like those little guys and they are happy in my water which is in the same ph range and on the harder side.  

 

[Guppysnail]

I have panda Cory at those parameters. They do just fine. I originally had them in my 29 and they used every inch of the tank. They would even try to swim with my guppies. Very adorable. Here is my group so you can see what they look like in action in those conditions. This is their new 20long but same parameters  

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Guppysnail

[JettsPapa]

I have Corydoras trilineatus (often sold as Juli corys) that have been doing just fine in my 300 ppm TDS and 8.2 pH water.  I don't remember when I got them, but I know it was over 2-1/2 years ago.

[Biotope Biologist]

People are often mistaken in thinking that corydoras need to be in blackwater to survive and thrive. When in fact many of the species that are popular can be found in river deltas. This doesn’t mean they are salt tolerant, but the pH is quite a bit higher in these areas. Just be sure to look up the species you want, as there are many.

 

I like bumblebee gobies as well for these style tanks. At 1 week old the fry could become easy food, but with enough cover they should survive. A pinch of salt for both swordtails and the gobies would be quite beneficial. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Biotope Biologist

[BradfordAquatics]

Fish from soft acidic waters adapt much better to hard alkaline water than the other way around.

My water is very hard and has a pH of 8.2-8.5 depending on the time of year. I have kept many soft water fish and there has never once been a problem.

The only time you really need to worry about it is when you are breeding or dealing with very sensitive species. 

In my opinion, any of the commonly available cories will be perfectly happy living in hard water.

[Brandon p]

On 7/21/2022 at 3:32 AM, Tayturs said:

I definitely don’t want anything that will get too big. Good to know that pandas seem to be better fits than my other preferences. They are pleasant looking also, and I hadn’t considered them so this thread has been enlightening 😄

At this point I think my best bet is to wait for the swords to arrive and let them settle for a few weeks, so I can see what exact pH and hardness I can stably maintain. And if I feel like I want more activity in the tank, reconsider my options at that point. I am also visiting my LFS tomorrow so I will see what I have available to me locally. 

I removed on of the bronzes from a 20 gallon that I let get out of control. I should have moved her to the 75 earlier. I. Have had swords and corys together. I don’t chase ph much with the exception of my discus. 

[Tayturs]

On 7/21/2022 at 9:20 AM, Biotope Biologist said:

People are often mistaken in thinking that corydoras need to be in blackwater to survive and thrive. When in fact many of the species that are popular can be found in river deltas. This doesn’t mean they are salt tolerant, but the pH is quite a bit higher in these areas. Just be sure to look up the species you want, as there are many.

 

I like bumblebee gobies as well for these style tanks. At 1 week old the fry could become easy food, but with enough cover they should survive. A pinch of salt for both swordtails and the gobies would be quite beneficial. 

I would LOVE to keep some BB gobies but I've never used salt outside of quarantine tanks and would be a little scared of hurting my plants... but I will look more into their care to see if its feasible for me! Thank you for the suggestion!

On 7/21/2022 at 12:47 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I would start by verifying your PH before you decide.

1. Take a sample of water from the tap, test KH, GH, PH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates
2.  Aerate that same sample for 24 hours with an airstone and retest.  This would be your actual water chemistry after off-gassing.
3.  Compare results from #2 to your tank.

Unfortunately my water situation is complicated, we are on a well but the water is really terrible... dirty and even higher PH than I quoted in my original post, with nothing you can do to adjust it. We have to use 5 gallon jugs to fetch clean water from town at places like water stores or fill stations. It seems like not every place I go to has the same parameters, so I try to make my tanks as self sufficient as possible to minimize water changes needed (I've been pretty successful with this in the past). That's why it's harder for me to pin down pH. I think the water changing dramatically when aerated is also part of what makes it tough for me to track- I have done this test in the past with water from a fill station near-ish to my home and it went up dramatically overnight. Sooo frustrating.

 

As a general note to everybody who has replied, HUGE thanks to all the informative posts. Was not expecting so much help! At this point I am feeling much more confident in the idea of keeping cories as long as I am deliberate in the species I pick. 🥰

[Brandon p]

 

On 7/21/2022 at 7:09 AM, Guppysnail said:

I have panda Cory at those parameters. They do just fine. I originally had them in my 29 and they used every inch of the tank. They would even try to swim with my guppies. Very adorable. Here is my group so you can see what they look like in action in those conditions. This is their new 20long but same parameters  

 @Tayturs if @Guppysnailkeeps them I trust her. I just do not have that type water. I’m 100% on board with them instead of 90%.

[anitstuk]

On 7/21/2022 at 7:41 AM, Tayturs said:

Hello all!

I have recently set up a 29g that will be housing a trio of red swordtails with the casual hopes of producing some fry. I would also like to put some bottom-dwellers in if I can swing it, since it is a larger tank that what I'm used to and there are many species I've never gotten to keep. That said, I only want to add them if they can thrive in the conditions I will be prioritizing for the swordtails.

PH will be in the 7.4-8.0 range
Water will be treated with Seachem Equilibrium to be on the harder side
Substrate is black sand with some pagoda rock, no driftwood. Moderately planted and I expect the sprite and swords to fill in over time (not sure if I'm actually planting the hairgrass bunch shown in the picture)

Suggestions should preferably not be a risk to swordtail fry, not spend most time hiding and not uproot plants. 

Thanks in advance for any advice given!!

Albino Corys like colder waters and in my experience, like softer substrate. They also are pretty peaceful in general

[Brandon p]

On 7/22/2022 at 12:54 AM, anitstuk said:

Albino Corys like colder waters and in my experience, like softer substrate. They also are pretty peaceful in general

The are the same as the bronze corys so I would stay away. They are they are species. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/21/2022 at 11:04 AM, BradfordAquatics said:

In my opinion, any of the commonly available cories will be perfectly happy living in hard water.

100% agreed. I would remind people though that having hard water vs. soft water is NOT entirely tied to PH.  I have 300+ PPM GH on my water, my tap comes out mid 6.5 up to about 6.8. 

corydoras I've kept, 3 varieties so far, all do perfectly fine in hard water.  I have "good PH" for them and I use wood and such.  I actually enjoy blackwater tanks.  I think a lot of others are going to have much better insight for PH, but i just wanted to note.... you can have high GH apart from other parameters, especially PH.

On 7/21/2022 at 9:22 PM, Tayturs said:

Unfortunately my water situation is complicated, we are on a well but the water is really terrible... dirty and even higher PH than I quoted in my original post, with nothing you can do to adjust it. We have to use 5 gallon jugs to fetch clean water from town at places like water stores or fill stations. It seems like not every place I go to has the same parameters, so I try to make my tanks as self sufficient as possible to minimize water changes needed (I've been pretty successful with this in the past). That's why it's harder for me to pin down pH. I think the water changing dramatically when aerated is also part of what makes it tough for me to track- I have done this test in the past with water from a fill station near-ish to my home and it went up dramatically overnight. Sooo frustrating.

Do you have the option to pre-condition water?  Make a weekly or bi-weekly run to fill a water tank on a truck or something and move that to the house?  Even something like a 150-300G container might be easier to find than you think and have enough water for 1-3 months for the fish.

Edited July 22, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[anitstuk]

On 7/22/2022 at 3:08 PM, Brandon p said:

The are the same as the bronze corys so I would stay away. They are they are species. 

Comes down to what colour you like

[Brandon p]

On 7/22/2022 at 3:02 AM, anitstuk said:

Comes down to what colour you like

I wasn’t dismissing you, We talked earlier about the size they can get in a 20 and that they probably were not the best for him. When the they breed you get mostly bronze. I have both and like them. 

[BradfordAquatics]

On 7/21/2022 at 11:49 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

100% agreed. I would remind people though that having hard water vs. soft water is NOT entirely tied to PH.  I have 300+ PPM GH on my water, my tap comes out mid 6.5 up to about 6.8. 

corydoras I've kept, 3 varieties so far, all do perfectly fine in hard water.  I have "good PH" for them and I use wood and such.  I actually enjoy blackwater tanks.  I think a lot of others are going to have much better insight for PH, but i just wanted to note.... you can have high GH apart from other parameters, especially PH.

 

Yes that is a great point. There is so much more to water than just pH