Does pore space of substrate effect root and plant growth

[Brandon p]

On 7/28/2022 at 7:00 PM, Flumpweesel said:

Trim the worst, I would probably treat the same as a display tank plants just do what feels right. The old growth isn't really significant for the test. I would look at number and size of new leaves and root development for the end comparison. Maybe time before new growth showed

Maybe decide on a tatty scale and have a when I leaf gets like this its gone approach to them all.

That what I did. I took a few of the worst. They really have improved in quality pretty fast. In 9 days there is more new growth than I ever though. Tuesday they get more root tabs. One clearly is having faster top grow than the other 2.

[Brandon p]

Well we had a a major problem with things. The stupid impeller broke on the hob penguin 350. The new ones are made of a much thinner weaker plastic than the old ones. The new impeller will break with simply installing it or a piece of debris gets in that area. So to fix this I added a second sponge filter that was in a tank waiting to get used. I thought that it would keep the filtration closer to the same. I’m not planning on replacing the impeller at this time. Some update pictures 

[John Henry]

Very interesting experiment!  You mentioned "more root tabs on Tuesday",  I have read the thread twice and missed which type of root tabs you are using, frequency and location ( one under each plant?)

[Brandon p]

On 8/1/2022 at 11:01 PM, John Henry said:

Very interesting experiment!  You mentioned "more root tabs on Tuesday",  I have read the thread twice and missed which type of root tabs you are using, frequency and location ( one under each plant?)

I place two near the Amazon swords as in my experience Amazon swords use a lot of fertilizer. The jungle val get one. They are not placed right next to the roots but about 1.5” away. The tabs are placed every two weeks for the Amazon swords and once monthly for the jungle val. I do try to place the the tabs on each side of the the Amazon swords and keep them away from the jungle val. They are at a depth close 1/2”. The Amazon sword are growing quickly and sending some roots up out of the substrate. I have trimmed most of those roots to encourage downward growth. With these Amazon swords I could put the tabs under them in this tank now, but in past experience I can’t get the tabs under larger Amazon swords. I think of it like this, most new roots the thin white roots are what do most of the nutrient uptake so placing the to the side od the plant should give you better uptake of nutrients than placing them underneath. I’m not sure if you have ever been told hold to fertilize trees(past work, not everyone should know) but you put the fertilizer down around the dripline. That’s where the water drips down at the edge of the tree. I do that with some plants and others you can’t with others. The tabs go much closer to the jungle val. There is a different root system on the jungle val. It is much smaller and sends out runners. So placing the tabs closer to the plants is more reasonable. I personally am worried that if I put one under the jungle val that I might did lodge the plant. The bigger the roots are I would put the tabs out from the base. Experience helps and some homework help.

[Brandon p]

Update: photos from to day. Photos are from left to right. 

One note, I robbed a impeller from a 220 and put it in the 350. I did this to keep everything as close to the same as when it started. 

[redfish]

Nice.  How long will you run the experiment?  

[Brandon p]

On 8/8/2022 at 9:05 PM, redfish said:

Nice.  How long will you run the experiment?  

I plan on 6 months. But there is no end date. All the plants look so much better than when I started. I was against sand until this. I have tried all kinds and hated the all from pool filter sand to Carib sea. I really have fallen in love with the black Diamond coal slag. That said it does take a little prep but nothing crazy. I think when I fish this one I’m going to just use 3 sands. Pool filter sand the coal slag and one of the popular pet store sold brands. , 

[redfish]

I remember hearing that black substrate shows dirt/debris more than a neutral color but that black looks really nice.  Quick search shows the slag is not bad in price.  Around $12 for 50lbs.

[Brandon p]

Yes, it has to be washed and you should run a magnet over it. The I was helped by a few pro here on which bag to get because black Diamond sell other blasting products. Use a medium or course. This is medium but next time when I do the sand I am going to try to get the course. The bag should look like the one pictured in the beginning. I love the stuff. You can see the bits of metal some in the picture that has it in my hand, before the magnet and I have to admit I did a poor job with it. 

[Brandon p]

I did answe the black sand showing more.? I haven’t had it long enough to know yet. I have had black gravel and been ok. So far I’m happy but I think that’s why I need to run it for  6 months so people will know. 

[redfish]

I watched another video last night where Cory mentioned it and wanting to switch because he doesn't like how it shows/looks dirty.  But he has specific reasons and I don't want to put words in his mouth.  It's a personal preference and I see a lot of black substrate tanks.

[Brandon p]

On 8/9/2022 at 10:46 AM, redfish said:

I watched another video last night where Cory mentioned it and wanting to switch because he doesn't like how it shows/looks dirty.  But he has specific reasons and I don't want to put words in his mouth.  It's a personal preference and I see a lot of black substrate tanks.

Different strokes. I have lots of tanks with black but they are mostly eco complete. This is my first time with this coal slag. So time will tell. I hate white sand because I think it shows everything.

[Brandon p]

Ok I had a question about the guppies that are in this tank. They are called 24 ct guppies

they Are not as gold as the pictures look they are shades of yellow. This is all the same fish. He will change based on mood and stress. Sometimes he has a nice orange tail spot as seen below. If you can’t see fish I prior photos posted I will look for some tat show better. This the only adult male. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255134003750?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=PbMikKseTPW&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=v0AGUAjUSm-&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

I’m not saying to buy from here but my came from here. I can see in the photos the slow growth of fish. Since April  they only had clutch of fish. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Brandon p

[redfish]

Are you keeping the substrate test going? 

[Brandon p]

I will finish this because I started and feel that I owe it to those that have followed. Tuesday is root tab day. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Brandon p

[redfish]

How often do you use root tabs?

[Brandon p]

On 8/14/2022 at 9:00 AM, redfish said:

How often do you use root tabs?

Every 2 weeks on the Amazon swords. They use lots of of root tabs so I try to keep on schedule. Also the plants where not a 100% when I put them in so a liitle extra is not go to hurt. In my other tanks that have big swords I do every 3 weeks. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Brandon p

[rockfisher]

As Brandon P is no longer here he asked me to post as to his findings. He would like to thank all those that supported him and helped walk thought the basic set-up. 
 

First two changes happened shortly after the start of the start. He added small Angelfish to the tank. 40 at the size of .2”. Second was the addition of a KCL based fertilizer to correct hole in the leaves in the Amazon Sword. K is link to root growth and increase leaf structure. He mentions this so this can be replicated if need be. The addition of the KLC based fertilizer did solve the problems with holes in the am Amazon Sword. The formula for the KCL fertilizer.

How roots were measured and classified. 
the plants roots were accessed by quickly moved a hand above the substrate gently move each of the substrates aw from the roots. This way done with little effort wit the exception of the pea gravel which took more time and effort. Once to roots where exposed with glass only around the roots the plants the plants were removed. Then plants were laid flat on a piece of plexiglass with a plastic tape measure mounted on it. The plants root base was placed at 0. The the roots were Measured down to the end of the roots. 

Results: 

Used Eco-complete: this produced the longest roots. With the longest being 10.125” on an Amazon sword. The longest Jungle Val was 5.625”. The average length for the Amazon sword was 9.25”. The average Jungle Val was 4.825.
 

Blasting Sand: the root lengths of this grow were slightly shorter but just behind the Used Eco-Complete. The longest roots for the Amazon Sword was 10”.  The longest Jungle Val was 4.5”. The average length was 9.125”. The longest Jungle Val length was 4.675”. The average Jungle Val length was 4.20”.

Pea Gravel: root lengths here were the shortest. Amazon Sword 9.125”. Jungle Val 4”. Average length Amazon Sword 8.75. Average Length Jungle Val was 3.75”.
 

Observations:

The roots in the eco-complete were the longest but only slightly. The roots were thin and white, with few secondary roots(fine roots that growth off the main roots).

Blasting sand: the root lengths were slightly shorter. The roots were white, very full with many secondary roots with many fine hair like roots. Some of the secondary roots were broken removing the plants. This did not interfere or affect the roots length measurements.

Pea Gravel: the root lengths were the shortest here. The roots where slightly yellow, much thicker than than the other two. 
 

 

Conclusions: There is no clear best substrate in this test. However the results do offer a few conclusions and information that can provide help in deciding which substrate Could be used in your tank.

Used Eco-Complete: this substrate could be used with great effect in a plant only tank or low fish impact tank( in a tank that does not have fish digging or pulling on the plants. 
 

Blasting Sand: this would be the best all around sand. The fine roots are great for nutrient uptake. With the length of the roots it should stand up to moderate fish pressure and would work with a plant only tank well. This was the first time working with it. He was very impressed at how it preformed. 
 

Pea-Gravel: as all preformed during this the pea gravel didn’t grow the longest or have the most fine roots, this is still a good substrate. This may be the best for fish that are diggers and have heavier fish pressure. The gravel is much harder to move than the other two. The think heavy roots should hold better than the thinner roots of the other two. 

Start Eco-Complete

End:

Start Blasting Sand:

End:

Start: Pea-Gavel

 

Before:

if any has questions or would like to discuss the results more please ask and I will get the answers for you. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by rockfisher

[Flumpweesel]

Those baby black angels are adorable. 

Thanks for posting this @rockfisher I'm impressed and surprised on how well the blasting sand did. 

It also proves you can get great results from cheaper substrates. 

Thank Brandon for sharing his results and congratulate him on yet more breeding successes.

[rockfisher]

On 10/24/2022 at 5:30 PM, Flumpweesel said:

Those baby black angels are adorable. 

Thanks for posting this @rockfisher I'm impressed and surprised on how well the blasting sand did. 

It also proves you can get great results from cheaper substrates. 

Thank Brandon for sharing his results and congratulate him on yet more breeding successes.

He was very happy with with the blasting sand. It was the first time using it. I am planning on using it in my 125 soon. 
 

He misses everyone here.

[Odd Duck]

I knew he’d like the sand!  Thanks for sharing everything and wish him well from me!

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

Thank you to both @Brandon pand @rockfisher! 

If pool filter sand wasn’t so easy to get I’d seek out the blasting sand but the nearest Tractor Supply is an hour round trip. 

[Odd Duck]

On 10/24/2022 at 4:41 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

Thank you to both @Brandon pand @rockfisher! 

If pool filter sand wasn’t so easy to get I’d seek out the blasting sand but the nearest Tractor Supply is an hour round trip. 

Pool filter should work just as well.  He just picked it (the black) because it was something he thought most people would have ready access to since he found it at his local fish store.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Odd Duck
Typo and then again to clarify.