Help Please!

[MommaOlenik]

My betta is absolutely still in there. I need to figure out where and how to move him into another tank. If it’s not better by this weekend then I will go buy another tank I guess and move him. Just seems I may end up with the same issues. Just with two tanks then but I don’t know. Again I’ve never had this happen and I have never been without an aquarium in the past 20 years. 

[Patrick_G]

On 7/5/2022 at 8:40 PM, MommaOlenik said:

I just went through the cycle. The whole thing and now just have high ammonia for almost a week now. So something is causing the high ammonia and that’s what I’m trying to figure out. Thank you for the advise tho I appreciate it!

If you're seeing ammonia then you're still in the process of re-establishing your cycle. It can take a few weeks. Once the bacteria is re-established they’ll convert the ammonia to Nitrite and then to less toxic Nitrate. Floating plants are especially good at removing ammonia so adding some of those will help, but large water changes are key. 

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

This idea of clean and dirty we need to stop this thinking. That works in the human world but in the glass box world these are relative terms. 

1) Yes you crashed your cycle but you’ve still not gotten enough beneficial bacteria (BB) in place to handle the small bioload present. This is what we are working on. You’ve received excellent advice so far. 

2) Each time you remove anything from the tank system you are taking away beneficial bacteria from the system. That old filter cartridge is seeded or was with good beneficial bacteria. The chemical media may have been used up but the surface area of all that cartridge was loaded with good stuff. The plants had BB, the mulm in the tank has BB, every surface in the tank has a spot for something good to grow.

This is why @nabokovfan87is into sponge - the Aquaclear sponges have a really good porosity to provide a lot of surface area for BB. When you changed out a cartridge, deep cleaned and vacced the tank then started pulling stuff out this led to the issue not enough BB to handle the small bioload. The solution going forward would be wait a week or 2 between cleaning steps. Example I do a 50 % wc one week, 1-2 weeks later I clean my sponges in tank water, then 1-2 weeks later I vacc the surface of my gravel only - I leave all the stuff in the substrate for my plants. They need to eat. 

3) Spring water or distilled water is fine but you’ll need to add back in some minerality, you can use crushed coral which may stabilize the pH and prevent fluctuations. You don’t need much, a small filter bag worth most likely would do. The distilled or spring water typically has a pH of around 7 which may explain the rise in pH. 

4) Adding in a BB supplement will speed things up but it’s not going to fix everything. Until you can get some good sponges in the filter I’d keep the old cartridge. When you do get the sponges I’d leave the cartridge in the tank for 2-5 days to help seed the sponges then pull it out. 

5) nitrates are not evil, they are man made - our inputs lead to elevations @ccc24made some good points. Nitrogen export is what all of the things you’ve been doing are geared towards but there’s a balance in a planted tank that Tetra and the manufacturers aren’t teaching with their cartridges, the German families that own Hagen don’t need to eat that bad. Dwarf water lettuce and other floaters do nitrogen export fast. Sword plants grow quick and eat alot from roots so thats where that yummy mulm comes in. Pogostemon octopus, guppy grass, hornwort, valisineria, ludwigia, bacopa are all excellent fast growing nitrogen hogs. Some terrestrial plants are helpful like luck bamboo, pothos and philodendron @dasaltemelosguyhas an excellent thread on this search it out. These things give you some wiggle room in terms of this nitrogen export issue. They also help with ammonia and nitrite. 

- What I Ike is you’re working hard to correct things. What worries me is that you are making a lot of changes without waiting long enough to get a result from the changes. It’s hard to be patient right now but you need to make one change at a time and then watch for a few days or maybe a week and then make another change. I would try to get away from chemical preparations to fix things. Try to find ways to let nature do things for you maybe start with some lucky bamboo along with the other things. 

[MommaOlenik]

Thank you for taking the time to explain all that. This has been a month long process. I have been careful not to change too much quickly. But also I was operating off of some bad advise for a while. I put the old cartridge back. I will have more plants tomorrow including the dwarf lettuce and have no nitrates or nitrites in the water. Thankfully that was a few weeks ago. Now Just ammonia. I have a large sponge in the filter that has been there for a over a week or two now. I have coral and seashells mixed in the substrate that I put in when I started slowly transitioning him to the spring water in 5% increments. Do you think that’s good enough or do you mean something crushed more finely? It has definitely helped bring the ph up and keep it steady I think. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/5/2022 at 9:10 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

This is why @nabokovfan87is into sponge

The main reason for me is that cartridges don't "work" for the sake of a stable system in my experience. Marineland basically invented the method for a cartridge based filter and the reason theirs works is because the bio-wheel keeps the bacteria while the floss ends up in the trash.  The logic nowadays is to use something that isn't disposable.  For bacteria, I prefer to have stability. I prefer to have specific media for the sake of giving the bacteria a place to thrive that isn't plastic.  Yes the sponge has a ton of surface area, but it also just works a lot better day-to-day to keep things clean, last a bit longer than a one time use product, and gives the tank stability.

I agree with everything said, I just had to smile when I saw the "being into sponge" line.  😂 too funny.

I basically use sponge as a mechanical filter only.  I don't really care if I clean it with tap water, etc. I want it to remove the stuff from the water column and then get it back to clean when I do my maintenance.  I tend to use multiple porosity of sponge and generally always end up cutting it myself for the sake of being able to do so.  Aquaclear is the "easiest" stuff to get your hands on from the big box store.
 

On 7/5/2022 at 10:06 PM, MommaOlenik said:

I put the old cartridge back.

You were fine to replace it. I think I was just asking about how dirty it looked! I apologize for any confusion.

On 7/5/2022 at 8:46 PM, MommaOlenik said:

If it’s not better by this weekend then I will go buy another tank I guess and move him.

Keep feeding in the stability slowly each day.  After a week things should be resolved as long as you're not introducing ammonia unknowingly from another source.  If you can, please add an airstone to the tank.
 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

I am definitely a sponge person myself @nabokovfan87sorry no offense meant mate! It was a cheeky comment not intended that way but funny in retrospect! When you window shop sponge on the Swiss Tropicals website you might be a Nerm! (Presently have 4 different ppis in my fishroom and displays). 

@MommaOlenikI think the addition you made was proper in terms of the crushed coral. Great choice. I would do small water changes every few days 2-3 days or so and 10-20% each until you get back to nitrate only. Good choices on the plants dwarf water lettuce is great for bettas. They seem to feel and this is totally a betta dad thing here but cozy amongst the roots. Dj Turbo my betta would approve!

We’re all Nerms here and there are no silly questions if it helps you become more comfortable and confident in the hobby that’s all the better! 

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/5/2022 at 10:58 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

When you window shop sponge on the Swiss Tropicals website you might be a Nerm! (Presently have 4 different ppis in my fishroom and displays). 

 😂 Very true!

I wish I could find some of their stuff with the dimples but they do have a lot of good stuff.

[sweetpoison]

It will be ok!  You have some great people helping you♥️ You almost had my contacts floating the way you love that little fish!

When I kept discus my favorite fish by the way, we never use carbon in our filters only if we’re trying to take out medication from the tank. To this day I never use carbon I just sit it aside when I get a new tank and add lots of sponge filters and bio beads.  I was always taught that using carbon can take out good stuff and cause problems.

But keep in mind, I have been out of the game for a few years!  I just set up a 20 gallon tank and I’m cycling it fishless, and I don’t have carbon in my filter.

On 7/5/2022 at 8:53 PM, Patrick_G said:

If you're seeing ammonia then you're still in the process of re-establishing your cycle. It can take a few weeks. Once the bacteria is re-established they’ll convert the ammonia to Nitrite and then to less toxic Nitrate. Floating plants are especially good at removing ammonia so adding some of those will help, but large water changes are key. 

“Floating plants are especially good at removing ammonia so adding some of those will help, but large water changes are key”

Good to know! 

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/6/2022 at 7:17 AM, sweetpoison said:

we never use carbon in our filters only if we’re trying to take out medication from the tank.

Do you guys think the carbon may be counteracting Prime's ammo-lock feature?

Also, what do you guys think of these? https://www.aquariumcoop.com/products/ammonia-reducing-filter-pad

Edited July 6, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Patrick_G]

On 7/6/2022 at 4:17 AM, sweetpoison said:

Floating plants are especially good at removing ammonia so adding some of those will help, but large water changes are key”

Good to know! 

In your case a large water change wouldn’t be helpful since you’re doing a fishless cycle and trying to keep a higher level of ammonia in the tank until the cycle is complete. 

[sweetpoison]

On 7/6/2022 at 9:32 AM, Patrick_G said:

In your case a large water change wouldn’t be helpful since you’re doing a fishless cycle and trying to keep a higher level of ammonia in the tank until the cycle is complete. 

See ~I actually knew this ~ can you believe that Patrick😂

[Patrick_G]

On 7/6/2022 at 10:20 AM, sweetpoison said:

See ~I actually knew this ~ can you believe that Patrick😂

I knew I was in grave danger of mansplaining! My apologies! 

[sweetpoison]

Oh no I was surprised that I knew that!

[MommaOlenik]

Thank you everyone. I guess I’ll be researching a new filter this weekend. I always had layered filters in my larger tanks with just a tiny refillable bag of charcoal and the rest was sponges and ceramic somethings. I swear these smaller tanks are harder to maintain imo. Moby wasn’t looking out the back of the tank as much today and greeted me with a happy little dance when I came home from work. I thought today was Thursday so I was disappointed when I realized the plants won’t be here until tomorrow. But I’m just doing a dose of prime until then. The kit is still measuring about .25 ammonia but a few people said that can happen since it basically is just binding and detoxifying it. Still better than the 1 and 2 ppm I was having before though. Thank you all so much for the advise. I was getting desperate so you saved me from spending hundreds on a psychic hotline until I found someone who could connect with my fish so he could tell me what to do ☺️ I am that person who will stop traffic for a chipmunk so the thought that I am hurting my fish is making me lose sleep at night. If anyone has any suggestions on a good filter that would work on a 5 gallon I’d love to hear your thoughts. Thanks again!!

Edited July 7, 2022 by MommaOlenik

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/6/2022 at 4:17 AM, sweetpoison said:

To this day I never use carbon I just sit it aside when I get a new tank and add lots of sponge filters and bio beads.

I have probably 2 years worth of unopened carbon from filters I am finally going to be able to use! It'll be nice....

It's a good thing when you don't have to use it, a good sign, but I think everyone shouldn't be afraid to use it when they need to or wish to.

 

 

On 7/6/2022 at 9:24 PM, MommaOlenik said:

Thank you everyone. I guess I’ll be researching a new filter this weekend.

I actually don't think you need to replace the filter at all, just modify it!  Pondguru does this a lot and you learn a lot about how to modify them with his channel.  Here's Cory's video, it's a fun one.
 

 

[MommaOlenik]

Is this how water lettuce is supposed to look???

[nabokovfan87]

Looks right to me, it's a little pale and has some burn on the leaves. Potentially was from an outdoor pond or something?

Here's a video that might be a helpful one. It should start halfway through when they show the water lettuce.
 

 

[Patrick_G]

Those are some nice nice big water lettuce plants. They’ll propagate fast, but they’re easy to keep under control. 

[MommaOlenik]

Ok so good news… I put in the water lettuce and banana plants and skipped the water change yesterday and did a larger one as suggested today. However, potential bad news… there’s a large spike in nitrites and nitrates today. What does this mean? I appreciate everyone taking the time to help me. I’m getting frustrated. I don’t know what else I can do. Thank you all! Here’s some pictures. I think the water lettuce may be a bit much? I didn’t realize that I didn’t order the drawn variety. I tried to look for some but couldn’t find any. Anyone have any suggestions for vendors that I might order from?

[Patrick_G]

On 7/7/2022 at 7:36 PM, MommaOlenik said:

However, potential bad news… there’s a large spike in nitrites and nitrates today. What does this mean? I

That’s good news because it means your ammonia is getting converted to nitrite. That will be converted to nitrate and that’s much less harmful to fish than nitrite. Just keep up with water changes and everything will work itself out. By then end of the month or sooner you should be back to a fully cycled tank. 
That water lettuce is big but it’ll do a great job sucking ammonia and nitrate out of the water! 

[MommaOlenik]

On 7/7/2022 at 11:01 PM, Patrick_G said:

That’s good news because it means your ammonia is getting converted to nitrite. That will be converted to nitrate and that’s much less harmful to fish than nitrite. Just keep up with water changes and everything will work itself out. By then end of the month or sooner you should be back to a fully cycled tank. 
That water lettuce is big but it’ll do a great job sucking ammonia and nitrate out of the water! 

Thank you. I really hope so!! This is the third time in a month I’ve watched this happen and be good for a day or two and then start all over again. 

[BeeD]

On 7/6/2022 at 10:17 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Do you guys think the carbon may be counteracting Prime's ammo-lock feature?

Also, what do you guys think of these? https://www.aquariumcoop.com/products/ammonia-reducing-filter-pad

Whenever these crashes happen I can't help thinking about how much I hate these carbon cartridges they sell new fish keepers. I don't know if it was the ammo-lock, but based on what she has said, something knocked the carbon out of commission pretty fast, but I guess not until after it starved whatever bb was living in the gravel and etc.

I'd like to know more about that filter pad too, for exactly these situations. I just wouldn't know how much to put in, I'd be afraid of affecting the cycle.

 

On 7/7/2022 at 10:58 PM, MommaOlenik said:

Thank you. I really hope so!! This is the third time in a month I’ve watched this happen and be good for a day or two and then start all over again. 

Hang in there. I've been through it too. I think they have you on the right track, and the plants will help. I don't think I saw anyone mention it, but if you can, try to feed earlier in the day so that the plants have plenty of time to soak up the ammonia he produces after eating.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/5/2022 at 10:58 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

you window shop sponge on the Swiss Tropicals website you might be a Nerm!

totally did this today, they must've recently added the sponge I need, not sure if it's the porosity I need.  They have corrugated foams available now. WOOT.

On 7/7/2022 at 9:36 PM, BrettD said:

'd like to know more about that filter pad too, for exactly these situations. I just wouldn't know how much to put in, I'd be afraid of affecting the cycle.

These are actually integrated into the Aqueon HoB filters.  Green = removes phosphates to help with Algae, they have one for ammonia, and one for general use (carbon).  None of those would impact your cycle, and because it's sponge it would technically be beneficial.

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

I won’t go on there until after we move otherwise I’m moving boxes of foams! Glad they had what you needed! I like Stephan a lot nice fella! 

[MommaOlenik]

So… I removed the water lettuce. It just wasn’t going to work long term. I couldn’t find anywhere to even order the dwarf variety. So I bit the bullet and took the 2 hour drive to the closest fish store. I got 2 different kinds of floating plants and some new additions. Finally looking more like it did before that guy told me to throw out all of my beautiful plants 🫠.Plus, Moby was super intrigued and seemed to like the new decor.  Always a bonus ☺️ Anyway, I think it is setup much better for long term. I’d love to hear what y’all think. Also, today there is much less ammonia, no nitrites and more nitrates (after a small water change to vacuum up the gunk the lettuce left behind) so fingers crossed we are coming to the end of this nightmare. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by MommaOlenik