How many of each?

[sweetpoison]

On 7/2/2022 at 1:25 PM, Odd Duck said:

You should challenge a new tank at least a couple times before adding fish, so dose with ammonia and test a couple times a day so you can see that the ammonia converts to nitrites, then nitrates.  It should do this over no more than 24 hours in order to consider the tank “cycled”.  After that you can blind feed until you have your fish in hand.  This means feed a small amount about half or a third of what you would feed the fish and watch the params again.  Usually every other day to every third day for the blind feeding.  You can also add some snails as soon as the tank passes the challenges.

Remember that a newly cycled tank still has a fairly fragile balance and it doesn’t take much to upset that balance.  So go easy on adding livestock but snails are a good first step.  I would not jump straight to nerites since so many of them appear 100% algae dependent.  Pick snails that won’t overrun a new tank and that will also eat veggies.  1-2 mystery snails, OR a couple Japanese trapdoors (these are slowly reproducing livebearers), OR a couple rabbit snails (another slowly reproducing livebearer), OR a couple chopstick snails (also slow reproducing livebearer) <—- note chopsticks are NOT the same as spike snails.  You could do ramshorns but they have more tendency to overrun a tank, especially a tank that hasn’t quite hit the balance point perfectly yet (every new tank, in other words).

@Odd Duck

“should do this over no more than 24 hours in order to consider the tank “cycled”.”

I do not understand this at all☺️
 

“After that you can blind feed until you have your fish in hand”

Like regular flake food?  GREAT info here, Odd!

“You can also add some snails as soon as the tank passes the challenges”

Snails. Snails and I do NOT get along. I’ve had one and it turned into a KAZILLION I will never forget that ~ in my filter everywhere!  I will avoid the ones that you suggested and get one that you did suggest😉so basically I’m getting these nails to see if they’re gonna die or not?

Ok. To recap. And you know me I need a lot of instruction🤗🥺 i’m adding ammonia every other day now, it’s at 0.1. I think I’m not home so I don’t have my notes.  Do you want me just to keep doing that until I see nitrites or at snails now? I test every day now.

You know in retrospect never have I ever had such a problem with an aquarium that I couldn’t add fish because I would just take a sponge from another one and be instantly cycled😡

Im visiting a fish store tomorrow and I’m going to see if they have any of these nails. But it’s too soon for them right? 

@Odd DuckI just wanted to say thank you for taking the time for all that you write ~ I appreciate you!

 

 

 

[sweetpoison]

“Remember that a newly cycled tank still has a fairly fragile balance and it doesn’t take much to upset that balance”

Oh I’m not gonna add anything till you guys tell me too. I’m not even sure when it’s going to be cycles or what THAT looks like🤫😞

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/2/2022 at 7:14 PM, sweetpoison said:

Do you want me just to keep doing that until I see nitrites or at snails now?

Snails often do not survive a cycling process. You should wait to add them.

[sweetpoison]

That’s what I was thinking!  I don’t think I wanna add anything until it’s cycled right?

[Brandon p]

I don’t even keep otos. I had a hard time with them. They really didn’t thrive in the high temp  tanks and my water. I’m a little jealous.

[sweetpoison]

I have to have some kind of sucker upper because the light is gonna turn my white gravel algae colored😡

[Odd Duck]

On 7/2/2022 at 6:14 PM, sweetpoison said:

@Odd Duck

“should do this over no more than 24 hours in order to consider the tank “cycled”.”

I do not understand this at all☺️
 

“After that you can blind feed until you have your fish in hand”

Like regular flake food?  GREAT info here, Odd!

“You can also add some snails as soon as the tank passes the challenges”

Snails. Snails and I do NOT get along. I’ve had one and it turned into a KAZILLION I will never forget that ~ in my filter everywhere!  I will avoid the ones that you suggested and get one that you did suggest😉so basically I’m getting these nails to see if they’re gonna die or not?

Ok. To recap. And you know me I need a lot of instruction🤗🥺 i’m adding ammonia every other day now, it’s at 0.1. I think I’m not home so I don’t have my notes.  Do you want me just to keep doing that until I see nitrites or at snails now? I test every day now.

You know in retrospect never have I ever had such a problem with an aquarium that I couldn’t add fish because I would just take a sponge from another one and be instantly cycled😡

Im visiting a fish store tomorrow and I’m going to see if they have any of these nails. But it’s too soon for them right? 

@Odd DuckI just wanted to say thank you for taking the time for all that you write ~ I appreciate you!

 

 

 

1. The ammonia (2 ppm) should convert all the way through the process from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate over the course of 24 hours.  When your BB’s (beneficial bacteria) have reached that point in their colony growth, your tank is considered “cycled”.  Do remember that there are many different bacteria that help in the nitrification cycle.  We very likely don’t even have all of them identified and classified.  It takes time to develop good diversity but you need to have enough total bacteria doing each part of the job in order to have any stability. It typically takes longer for the bacteria to grow that convert nitrite to nitrate.  You’ll go through a phase where you’re getting nitrite but still not getting much nitrate.  This is usually the most frustrating step because you’re so close you can taste it!  But you still have to wait.

2. I add sinking whatever.  Usually something my Jacks don’t like (they’re picky) that’s getting past a reasonable “use by” point.  The bacteria don’t care.

3.  Once the tank is cycled and has passed challenges, I like to add some snails.  They will bring other bacteria with them for more biodiversity in your biofiltration BB’s.  They will provide some bacteria and slime for scuds and other microlife to eat.  And they start cleaning up algae immediately.  I have also,added snails immediately on start up but I would never treat it as a fishless cycle at that point. I would consider that a fish-in cycle since there are snails in there.  But I start with seasoned, aged filters and blind feed (in this case I would be feeding snails) and I let the snails get a bit overgrown, then pull a bunch out and add the first fish.  I pull out as many snails as I think will be equivalent to the bioload of the fish I want to add.  So I’m removing snail bioload and adding equal fish bioload so the filter and BB’s just keep chugging along happily.  I test and almost never see any spikes when I do this.  If I don’t want to take as much time as letting the snails boom, then remove them, I just add fish much slower or do more water changes until the BB’s can catch up.

4. Doing a fishless cycle, you should aim to add enough ammonia to maintain 2 ppm ammonia.  When your ammonia drops right away after you add, your nitrites should be spiking like mad.  If your nitrates start to spike also, you’re almost there.  When you don’t get a nitrite spike after adding ammonia, but you get a nitrate spike, your tank is ready for a challenge.  You essentially add your ammonia and test a couple times a day to see if you can catch the nitrite spike, then see the nitrate spike the same day or the next day and nitrites should clear just as fast.  THAT sequence is passing a challenge.  Do that twice in a row (water change if your nitrate is high) and if you see the same thing (you may not catch the nitrite spike but ammonia that’s added should shift all the way to nitrate in 24 hours), and if it does, your tank is cycled.

5.  NOW you can safely add snails (water change again if needed to get nitrates down to around 20-40) start feeding the snails, keep monitoring for any spikes, and start arranging for the first fish to go in (if you don’t have them already in quarantine).

Hope this helps.  I know it’s confusing.  I had to learn what it was to do a fishless cycle because it wasn’t really done this way or called this “back in the day”.  We just added a few small fish at a time or we started a new tank with some gravel from an old tank if we needed to add fish a little quicker.  I never really tested freshwater back then and I don’t think I ever heard of or saw a test kit for the first 5 or more years that I kept tanks - not until after I got a “real” job since I was supporting my fish habit with my allowance.  I didn’t even use dechlorinators.  I ran my water in a bucket with an airstone and off-gassed the chlorine for at least 24 hours, then did my water change.  Nobody was using chloramine in water systems back then.

It wasn’t until we got our first reef tank in 1983 that we got serious about testing water.  I admit, I don’t test water much even now.  But it’s one of the most important tools you can have, especially as a beginner or less experienced fishkeeper.  It is also very handy for sorting out problems which is why we always ask about parameters if somebody is having issues with their fish.  If they don’t have a test kit, then the first recommendations is going to be to do a water change, add air, then get a test kit or have your water tested at the fish store.

I’m happy to answer any other questions I can and I’ll either tell you if I don’t know the answer or I’ll read until I’m reasonably confident I do know the answer.  If I have to give you my best guess, I will tell you it’s a best guess and let you decide if you want to read more on your own or trust a guess.

On 7/2/2022 at 9:00 PM, sweetpoison said:

I have to have some kind of sucker upper because the light is gonna turn my white gravel algae colored😡

It will do that anyway.  I’ve never even tried to keep gravel white.  I’m not saying don’t try.  I’m only saying don’t beat yourself up if it doesn’t stay white.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/2/2022 at 7:28 PM, sweetpoison said:

I don’t think I wanna add anything until it’s cycled right?

You can add live plants! They love to consume ammonia, nitrites and nitrates! All the stuff! But it would make it tricky to do your testing. You might be expecting a nitrite reading but not get one because the plant ate the nitrite. 

[sweetpoison]

On 7/2/2022 at 9:09 PM, Odd Duck said:

1. The ammonia (2 ppm) should convert all the way through the process from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate over the course of 24 hours.  When your BB’s (beneficial bacteria) have reached that point in their colony growth, your tank is considered “cycled”.  Do remember that there are many different bacteria that help in the nitrification cycle.  We very likely don’t even have all of them identified and classified.  It takes time to develop good diversity but you need to have enough total bacteria doing each part of the job in order to have any stability. It typically takes longer for the bacteria to grow that convert nitrite to nitrate.  You’ll go through a phase where you’re getting nitrite but still not getting much nitrate.  This is usually the most frustrating step because you’re so close you can taste it!  But you still have to wait.

2. I add sinking whatever.  Usually something my Jacks don’t like (they’re picky) that’s getting past a reasonable “use by” point.  The bacteria don’t care.

3.  Once the tank is cycled and has passed challenges, I like to add some snails.  They will bring other bacteria with them for more biodiversity in your biofiltration BB’s.  They will provide some bacteria and slime for scuds and other microlife to eat.  And they start cleaning up algae immediately.  I have also,added snails immediately on start up but I would never treat it as a fishless cycle at that point. I would consider that a fish-in cycle since there are snails in there.  But I start with seasoned, aged filters and blind feed (in this case I would be feeding snails) and I let the snails get a bit overgrown, then pull a bunch out and add the first fish.  I pull out as many snails as I think will be equivalent to the bioload of the fish I want to add.  So I’m removing snail bioload and adding equal fish bioload so the filter and BB’s just keep chugging along happily.  I test and almost never see any spikes when I do this.  If I don’t want to take as much time as letting the snails boom, then remove them, I just add fish much slower or do more water changes until the BB’s can catch up.

4. Doing a fishless cycle, you should aim to add enough ammonia to maintain 2 ppm ammonia.  When your ammonia drops right away after you add, your nitrites should be spiking like mad.  If your nitrates start to spike also, you’re almost there.  When you don’t get a nitrite spike after adding ammonia, but you get a nitrate spike, your tank is ready for a challenge.  You essentially add your ammonia and test a couple times a day to see if you can catch the nitrite spike, then see the nitrate spike the same day or the next day and nitrites should clear just as fast.  THAT sequence is passing a challenge.  Do that twice in a row (water change if your nitrate is high) and if you see the same thing (you may not catch the nitrite spike but ammonia that’s added should shift all the way to nitrate in 24 hours), and if it does, your tank is cycled.

5.  NOW you can safely add snails (water change again if needed to get nitrates down to around 20-40) start feeding the snails, keep monitoring for any spikes, and start arranging for the first fish to go in (if you don’t have them already in quarantine).

Hope this helps.  I know it’s confusing.  I had to learn what it was to do a fishless cycle because it wasn’t really done this way or called this “back in the day”.  We just added a few small fish at a time or we started a new tank with some gravel from an old tank if we needed to add fish a little quicker.  I never really tested freshwater back then and I don’t think I ever heard of or saw a test kit for the first 5 or more years that I kept tanks - not until after I got a “real” job since I was supporting my fish habit with my allowance.  I didn’t even use dechlorinators.  I ran my water in a bucket with an airstone and off-gassed the chlorine for at least 24 hours, then did my water change.  Nobody was using chloramine in water systems back then.

It wasn’t until we got our first reef tank in 1983 that we got serious about testing water.  I admit, I don’t test water much even now.  But it’s one of the most important tools you can have, especially as a beginner or less experienced fishkeeper.  It is also very handy for sorting out problems which is why we always ask about parameters if somebody is having issues with their fish.  If they don’t have a test kit, then the first recommendations is going to be to do a water change, add air, then get a test kit or have your water tested at the fish store.

I’m happy to answer any other questions I can and I’ll either tell you if I don’t know the answer or I’ll read until I’m reasonably confident I do know the answer.  If I have to give you my best guess, I will tell you it’s a best guess and let you decide if you want to read more on your own or trust a guess.

It will do that anyway.  I’ve never even tried to keep gravel white.  I’m not saying don’t try.  I’m only saying don’t beat yourself up if it doesn’t stay white.

Great information here I think I read it like four times!

I think of a test kit ~  but I’m not sure of the result of the ammonia I took this morning

Should I keep adding ammonia every other day?

Edited July 4, 2022 by sweetpoison

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

Yes you should add a bit more ammonia to get yourself to 2.0-3.0 and then hopefully when as @Odd Duckput it very elegantly you see you 2.0-3.0 ammonia go away in less than 24 hours and you get nitrites and or nitrates you are getting close. There’s no rush here. 
People have given you advice on how to speed things up such as Fritzyme, live plants , filter media or gravel from a cycled tank. These all have beneficial bacteria that could add to the colonies of BB that are starting in your tank. Buying a plant on wood or rock at you LFS is a good cheat code. 
Cycling and maturation of a tank are different and I get the feeling you’re understanding that. It’s a process and the first months it will be tough to be patient with your stocking but you’re on here so you want to do it right. Keep firing away the questions. 

[sweetpoison]

Thank you so much ~ I like the way you post for one to be able to understand what you’re saying👏 And the patience from everybody is astounding♥️ @Beardedbillygoat1975 I’ve never had to cycle a tank this way!  I would just pull sponges from my other ones.  I was such an idiot to sit here and wait for it to cycle and I haven’t even done anything to it🙄🥴😂

OK ~ I just tested Nitrates they are trying!  Ammonia seems to be the same as yesterday

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

@sweetpoisonthat looks darker on the ammonia strip. You could see if you could buy a sponge or some filter media from the local fish store. I like plants personally to help the cycle along with the Fritzyme 7 usually gets me there faster. 

[sweetpoison]

Ok.  Is this the correct stuff?  Am I gonna still use ammonia I have here?  

[macdaddy36]

You should add some variety of Neon Tetra because they can handle higher temps with the discus.