Jump to content

Have we been doing aquariums wrong?


Fishguy
 Share

Recommended Posts

I love the idea. I have played with it before and it is cool and easy once things where going. I think most people would have a hard time with it. I have a tank that is well planted and has eco complete that is so old , but growing on the eco is moss. I went the side yard and cut smal pieces out about 3”x3” or smaller. It is very short growing on the ground maybe 1/8”. Over about a year it grew in the tank and I would harvest more when it grew back. There was only a small area and you can imagine how small it to take a year to cover the foot print of a 20g. For plants there are red neon swords. Amazon swords, a weed from my yard that we call dollar weed because the leaves are close to the size of dollar coins, it’s like pennywort and could be the same and one more weed that grows in the raining season here. There is a undergravel filter panel in the tank but nothing connected to it. No tubes or and thing because I took them out to put a hob on. ( I’m not sure why because I’m a big advocate of undergravel). And I did want to ruin the moss that had drown so I left it. The hob was eating my shrimp and I got upset and unplugged it and meant to go back and put the tubes and air back on. I got busy and it didn’t happen. The tanks is stocked with not the most exciting fish but to each there own. I have 13 neons, a few baby albino plecos(I breed them so once they get big enough I move or sell them and I not put more than 3 or 4 very small ones in.  There are to black loaches and shrimp( I got them as ghost shrimp to feed but they are probably not ghost shrimp as the are getting bluer every few generations. There are a ton of shrimp and I started with 12 and some the filter ate. It been with out a filter for almost 2 years. I never have to a thing. I add water. If the tank was not in the window I don’t think it would work for me and the moss I think play a big roll as you can see it Pearl in the mid after noon. I think I got lucky and if I planned I’m not sure I could do it. I love it. But I could not do this with my tiger or Leopard frog pleco breeding tanks. I don’t think most people could do it I have read plenty of @Patrick_G to think he could do this. Sorry @Fishguy I have read your post but I’m assuming it you are willing and interested you do it as well. Probably a lot of people on this forum can because they show enough interest to be here. It’s cool post pics as you go if you get the chance to do them.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/28/2022 at 8:35 PM, Pepere said:

I am amused that many people are fazzled by a no filter tank.

I dont think there were any filters before the early 1950’s.

By definition all tanks were filterless before they were invented and popularized.

I read Diana Walsteds book through and in depth and I gained a lot from it.

personally I doubt I would ever follow it to a T.  I recognize that the tannins and hummic acids have biological benefits to the tank ecology, but I am not convinced it is a gamechanger that yields significantly improved longevity or quality of life for the fish, and I dont personally like the aesthetics.

I personally embrace significant plant density, but not to the extent I see in many Walsted tanks.

I also bought water lettuce originally, and I am pleased with its ability to pull Nitrates out of the tank.  I don’t however care for the lengths of the roots hanging down in the tank or the frequency which they break off and have to be fished out, and I don’t life the frequency of leaves shedding and decaying in the tank.

I have bought Red Root Floater and am working at propagating it to remove a lot of the water lettuce.

In the end, I learned a lot studying it and use a fair amount from it, but I do not envision going without a filter and strictly avoid water changes and embrace the hummic and tannic substances.

I also do not find the claims to anoxic anaerobic final conversion of nitrates to nitrogen gas particularly compelling.  I admit I may well be wrong though.

 

In the end, the purpose of keeping an Aquarium is to derive pleasure from it. Whatever methods end up achieving that end for you is the methods you should use.

I think it’s a cool project or cool accident. I think your right about the 50’s.There where air pumps but they were not for the average person. The economically filter that everyone could get was the undergravel and air pump prices come down.  I wasn’t around but I’m guessing that the types of fish and sizes of tanks where different to some point tetras and angels have been favorites since the the late 1800’s.  I think small tanks are much harder to mange and I would think that it would very hard. The chances of a filter less tank crashing I think are greater. 

Edited by Brandon p
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think there's a right or wrong way to set up a fish tank. There are obvious "this is incorrect" ways with stocking; but I think we can all agree that this isn't the theme to this thread.

With that said, as long as the aquarium brings you joy - that's the correct way of setting up an aquarium. And frankly, that's the main reason why I enjoy this hobby: there are so many ways to do it.

When I'm setting up a tank, I honestly look at google images, visit the site the said pictures are from to see how they set it up; and gather my ideas this way. I truly enjoy seeing and hearing outside the box ways of accomplishing something.

Seeing these travel videos from Cory is another great way of seeing and getting a feel as well.

Case in point:

 

Edited by Jeff
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am glad to see a post like this because I did not want to be the only one to think this. I feel that a lot of people that tell others about certain criteria and such are not 100% accurate. It is kinda bizarre to see "rules" set up for what people should and shouldn't do when in reality it should be centered around how both the person and the animals can be happy. People say there is minimum tank sizes for certain fish and such, but in reality if you can provide a tank that the fish can thrive and you can enjoy, then you are doing it perfectly. Screw the "rules". Even the co-op has this tiny 3.3 gallon aquarium masters tank on display with I want to say some CPD at one point, a dumbo betta with one eye at another, and im pretty sure either a scarlet basis or Dario Dario, I absolutely loved the look of the tank, so I got one and have been keeping guppies and shrimp in it and they have been doing wonderfully for years now. I have to take out the babies so I dont over crowd it but they love the over grown jungle of pearlweed and are thriving nonetheless. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Filters and heaters etc are hyped by capitalism.  My first tank had only a used airline with no airstone.  I had no idea what I was doing at 7-8 years old. Lots of trial and error but eventually it worked with lots of water changes since plants were just what I grabbed from the stream (many never meant to be submerged 🤣 but looked pretty to a child. Still Lakes and ponds support life. 
 

That said I think filters make is a tiny bit easier for new folks to get started because there are a lot of components that go into getting it right. 
 

Companies do not make money if they tell you you don’t need these things so they tell you you must have them. I like them as fail safes and because I am not patient and I change things way to often to achieve that level of stability. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/29/2022 at 5:20 AM, Pepere said:

It sure hasnt taken me long to find out that if you visit 5 different care pages for a specific fish, you can find many different parameters over how they can be kept.  Sometimes you see copy and paste virtually verbatim, but sometimes you see wildly different minimum tank sizes listed…

I saw one site list a minimum tank size of 15 gallons for a single sparkling Gourami and an additional 10 gallons for each addition.

other sites reference a pair kept in a 10 gallon

And the Foo the Flowerhorn video series had Sparkling Gourami breeding in a 3.5 gallon tank without filter or aeration.

.in my mind dense vegetation provides significant biofiltration and oxygenation as well as enrichment for the fish providing them cover for cocealment and breaking up sightlines and opportunities for exploration…

same disparity noted with ph levels…. And the oft quoted need for the importance of ph stability,  and yet ph can swing substantially in a densely vegetated pond in nature between sunrise and noon due to CO2 uptake in plants with solar lux.

Reminds me of the early quote as computers became prevalent. “Input garbage, output gospel”

Minimum tank sizes are guidelines meant more for the idea health of the fish. I’m want to use an analogy but I know it will upset people, so I’ll use one that is less likely to upset people. Sea World, and the killer whales. Some people are ok with that and others not. Clearly killers can live and survive in the tanks at the parks. Many people feel that the tanks are to small. Aquarium fish are the same some people are ok with some fish in smaller spaces. I’m on record that I had Pacu and loved them. Tanks sizes are different because different people think differently. I don’t think the is much if any science of fish and minimum tank size. I totally agree with ph on most fish but we have changed some fish that do best with a stable ph like humans have breed dogs. I’m not disagreeing with you just pointing out the exception that then people change to rules. 
 

I LOVE YOUR QUOTE 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/29/2022 at 7:17 AM, Guppysnail said:

Filters and heaters etc are hyped by capitalism.  My first tank had only a used airline with no airstone.  I had no idea what I was doing at 7-8 years old. Lots of trial and error but eventually it worked with lots of water changes since plants were just what I grabbed from the stream (many never meant to be submerged 🤣 but looked pretty to a child. Still Lakes and ponds support life. 
 

That said I think filters make is a tiny bit easier for new folks to get started because there are a lot of components that go into getting it right. 
 

Companies do not make money if they tell you you don’t need these things so they tell you you must have them. I like them as fail safes and because I am not patient and I change things way to often to achieve that level of stability. 

I’m not sure if you saw the post about no filter tanks yesterday. I have one by accident. It does well but it’s in full sun.  I don’t think I could don’t many tank like that, but a lot of us have very simple filters. That is cool you did that as a kid.

Edited by Brandon p
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/29/2022 at 10:06 AM, Brandon p said:

I’m not sure if you saw the post about no filter tanks yesterday. I have one by accident. It does well but it’s in full sun.  I don’t think I could don’t many tank like that, but a lot of us have very simple filters. That is cool you did that as a kid.

I didn’t “know any better”??? As a kid 🤣. I’m on my way to check out your post I don’t think I seen it. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/29/2022 at 7:34 AM, Pepere said:

Still lakes and ponds typically have inflows and outflows get rained on and are exposed to wind that ripples the surface. Also, carrying capacity gets ruthlessly enforced.

hob filter for a 20 gallon can be had for $20.00.  Fill it with foam or plastic pot scrubbers for cheap and rinse it out a bit when flow decreases and you wont be enriching Big Aqua by much… 3 watts power consumption would cost about 45 cents a month in electricity.

sponge filter and air pump and hose can easily be had for under 20 dollars. Electricity cost being the same.

In Diane Walstad book I read where even filterless tanks do benefit from some gentle circulation of water.

But if you like the challenge, you can indeed run and balance it without to good effect and there is no doubt pulling it off would bring about satisfaction.

 

I have one filterless tank and it is really easy to care for. It happened by mistake. Conditions are just right and I think I closed the curtains for a few days it would end. I give all credit to those who intentionally have filterless tanks. 

 

On 6/29/2022 at 10:08 AM, Guppysnail said:

I didn’t “know any better”??? As a kid 🤣. I’m on my way to check out your post I don’t think I seen it. 

It was my post I think it was called “are we doing tanks wrong”

Edited by Brandon p
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/29/2022 at 5:20 AM, Pepere said:

And the Foo the Flowerhorn video series had Sparkling Gourami breeding in a 3.5 gallon tank without filter or aeration.

I LOVE his videos. Too bad he ended the series. Hopefully we'll see him again. But so relaxing to watch. He did a lot of water changes for sure though. And his shrimp were constantly having babies.

I really like the "Father Fish method" and want to give it a try.  He is very much pro-Walstad and encourages creating a "food web" in the tank w/ microorganisms. They eat the waste, and the fish eat the microorganisms and the algae, etc. Heavily heavily planted is key. But I do see sponge filters & heaters in his tanks. He says he doesn't really need to do water changes or be on a schedule to do so. Test the water, and if you get good readings, leave it alone.  Everyone is going to have their own opinion on this. I'm neutral but I'm just saying that I am interested in the concept. 

On 6/28/2022 at 3:33 PM, Fishguy said:

In this video he does everything people always say not to do, and his fish are THRIVING. 

This guy live streams with Father Fish too.  They like to collaborate on the dirted tank method.

Edited by Chick-In-Of-TheSea
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/28/2022 at 6:10 PM, Brandon p said:

If the tank was not in the window I don’t think it would work for me

Father Fish told a story in one of his vids about how a Jack Dempsey fell or jumped in his workshop and he couldn't find it.  He had tons of tanks at that time. Anyway, running his shop or whatnot he got busy and forgot about the fish. One year later, he was in the workshop and there was an old tank on the floor. He caught a bit of movement out of the corner of his eye, and inspected the tank. The Jack Dempsey was swimming around in it and was big and healthy. He didn't do anything to the tank but it got like, 1 hour of sunlight a day. It was enough to grow algae and that's what the fish had eaten for the year.

Edited by Chick-In-Of-TheSea
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/29/2022 at 10:25 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Father Fish told a story in one of his vids about how a Jack Dempsey fell or jumped in his workshop and he couldn't find it.  He had tons of tanks at that time. Anyway, running his shop or whatnot he got busy and forgot about the fish. One year later, he was in the workshop and there was an old tank on the floor. He caught a bit of movement out of the corner of his eye, and inspected the tank. The Jack Dempsey was swimming around in it and was big and healthy. He didn't do anything to the tank but it got like, 1 hour of sunlight a day. It was enough to grow algae and that's what the fish had eaten for the year.

Definitely need a surprise emoji for this 😱

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand why we all love splashy titles like "Have we been doing aquariums wrong" (and NEED them to get YouTube views, so no judgment here!) but I would reframe the question to-- "are you doing aquariums the right way for you?" So often we push whatever has worked best for us on others. I think the truth tends to be closer to everything has the right use case. Do you need a filter for a heavily planted ten gallon with one betta? Not if you know what you are doing and set it up carefully. Would your overstocked 125g Lake Malawi cichlid tank with no plants struggle without a filter and water changes... probably. Can you run a Walstad-style tank of a pretty decent size without much beyond a light? Sure and that might be your favorite tank ever. If you are someone who loves clear water, a lack of algae, and a clean aquascaped appearance, then a Walstad tank will likely be a disaster as it will never meet your standards for what a "pristine" tank should look like. 

I think there is great value in livestreams like Cory's that get us thinking about what tank is best for us at whatever moment we are in our life. I don't think, though, that the answer is the same for everyone, or even most people.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think there is a right or wrong way to run tanks. I'm 63 years old and I've seen it all at one time or another. Watch the videos of the Hong Kong and Chinese fish markets and you'll see a stocking density that's unimaginable to most hobbyists. I've seen tanks untouched for years with massive amounts of mulm, and very healthy, happy fish. I've seen fish in absolutely sterile tanks that seem happy and healthy. (And in many cases breeding in both situations. ) Do what works for you. All water is different. Bacteria and microbes in our tanks are different. How we care for our tanks is different. Keeping fish alive and happy is often more about keeping bacteria alive and happy. If you have enough of the right bacteria and microbes in your tanks, it's hard to do anything "wrong."

I have a suspicion that our current drop and plop method of introducing new fish without the water they came shipped in may be depriving us of some of the bacteria and microbes the fish are used to. Trying to protect our tanks from disease could be depriving the fish of the bacteria and microbes in that water that could establish a colony in the new tank and help them survive. It could be an interesting field of research to see what exactly is in those bags of water that the fish arrive in. Are there parasites?  Are there beneficial bacteria and microbes? Does anyone know? I don't. If you're buying from a private breeder though with healthy fish, you may be pouring valuable resources down the drain when you toss that water out. There will be ammonia in the bag due to the fish being in the bag, but ammonia feeds the bacteria we need. Are there fat, happy bacteria eating that ammonia in the bag that we flush away? I don't know. It would be interesting to learn though. Plop and drop has become popular, but is it the right thing to do? Obviously yes if the fish is diseased, but what if the fish is healthy? Is it still the best option or are we wasting valuable bacteria and microbes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/29/2022 at 11:14 AM, gardenman said:

I have a suspicion that our current drop and plop method of introducing new fish without the water they came shipped in may be depriving us of some of the bacteria and microbes the fish are used to. Trying to protect our tanks from disease could be depriving the fish of the bacteria and microbes in that water that could establish a colony in the new tank and help them survive. It could be an interesting field of research to see what exactly is in those bags of water that the fish arrive in. Are there parasites?  Are there beneficial bacteria and microbes? Does anyone know? I don't. If you're buying from a private breeder though with healthy fish, you may be pouring valuable resources down the drain when you toss that water out. There will be ammonia in the bag due to the fish being in the bag, but ammonia feeds the bacteria we need. Are there fat, happy bacteria eating that ammonia in the bag that we flush away? I don't know. It would be interesting to learn though. Plop and drop has become popular, but is it the right thing to do? Obviously yes if the fish is diseased, but what if the fish is healthy? Is it still the best option or are we wasting valuable bacteria and microbes?

The tricky thing is that sick fish may not present symptoms for a few weeks.  I quit the drop & plop after I had an ick outbreak that wiped out half my tank. Everyone has a different way of doing things, though. That's what I love about this forum. I love hearing what people have experimented with and how it turned out. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/29/2022 at 10:41 AM, Guppysnail said:

Definitely need a surprise emoji for this 😱

I have a similar thing happen but not for a year. I was gifted a tank. The tubes and parts for the undergravel filter we’re tossed in a 5 gallon bucket. I didn’t use the UGF and used HOB. The tank got set-up all. The fish came with so they were all accounted for. I set the 5 gallon buck in the yard by the hose to clean and put the parts way(even as a teen I horded    fish equipment) I final got back to a month or so later I final cleaned it after mom dropped the hammer, but in one tube ther was a fish stuck in the lift tube. I call my uncle that gave it to me and told him about it and he said he thought though it died 5 years earlier. The fish was still alive after the bucket and I put it in te tank. So that clown loach was either stuck in the lift tube for five years or hide pretty well. I think it hide well most of the time and at one point got stuck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/29/2022 at 10:14 AM, gardenman said:

I have a suspicion that our current drop and plop method of introducing new fish without the water they came shipped in may be depriving us of some of the bacteria and microbes the fish are used to. Trying to protect our tanks from disease could be depriving the fish of the bacteria and microbes in that water that could establish a colony in the new tank and help them survive. It could be an interesting field of research to see what exactly is in those bags of water that the fish arrive in. Are there parasites?  Are there beneficial bacteria and microbes? Does anyone know? I don't. If you're buying from a private breeder though with healthy fish, you may be pouring valuable resources down the drain when you toss that water out. There will be ammonia in the bag due to the fish being in the bag, but ammonia feeds the bacteria we need. Are there fat, happy bacteria eating that ammonia in the bag that we flush away? I don't know. It would be interesting to learn though. Plop and drop has become popular, but is it the right thing to do? Obviously yes if the fish is diseased, but what if the fish is healthy? Is it still the best option or are we wasting valuable bacteria and microbes?

Would there be enough of that bacteria on the fish bodies to take care of that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/29/2022 at 8:14 AM, gardenman said:

I don't think there is a right or wrong way to run tanks. I'm 63 years old and I've seen it all at one time or another. Watch the videos of the Hong Kong and Chinese fish markets and you'll see a stocking density that's unimaginable to most hobbyists. I've seen tanks untouched for years with massive amounts of mulm, and very healthy, happy fish. I've seen fish in absolutely sterile tanks that seem happy and healthy. (And in many cases breeding in both situations. ) Do what works for you. All water is different. Bacteria and microbes in our tanks are different. How we care for our tanks is different. Keeping fish alive and happy is often more about keeping bacteria alive and happy. If you have enough of the right bacteria and microbes in your tanks, it's hard to do anything "wrong."

I have a suspicion that our current drop and plop method of introducing new fish without the water they came shipped in may be depriving us of some of the bacteria and microbes the fish are used to. Trying to protect our tanks from disease could be depriving the fish of the bacteria and microbes in that water that could establish a colony in the new tank and help them survive. It could be an interesting field of research to see what exactly is in those bags of water that the fish arrive in. Are there parasites?  Are there beneficial bacteria and microbes? Does anyone know? I don't. If you're buying from a private breeder though with healthy fish, you may be pouring valuable resources down the drain when you toss that water out. There will be ammonia in the bag due to the fish being in the bag, but ammonia feeds the bacteria we need. Are there fat, happy bacteria eating that ammonia in the bag that we flush away? I don't know. It would be interesting to learn though. Plop and drop has become popular, but is it the right thing to do? Obviously yes if the fish is diseased, but what if the fish is healthy? Is it still the best option or are we wasting valuable bacteria and microbes?

Funny, I take the drop and plop to a new level I guess, I actually rinse the fish off a little with my tank water! 

As for what is in that bag, I don't know but it very well could be some disease (certainly not some valuable resource) and I don't want it in my water, I have plenty of good bacteria already. Why take the chance?

I have read that it would be good to go to a lake or stream and get a few pebbles or wood or whatever to put in your tank for this very reason you speak of, but it scares me to do it. 🙂

My fish are doing great so I'm thinking leave it alone!

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/28/2022 at 1:33 PM, Fishguy said:

https://youtu.be/CLaWAYem6aw In this video he does everything people always say not to do, and his fish are THRIVING. 

This was probably the most interesting fish related video I have ever watched. 

I have had multiple filterless tanks. There's a thread on a historical tank, I can't remember whose... anyway it doesn't even have air.

I tried the no airstones.... and I also feed mosquito algae in the summer. Let's just say my filterless tank has airstones now.

If you want more information, The Treatise on the Planted Aquarium by Dr Diana Walstad may interest you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In this vein, when I got back in the hobby this time, I purposely have gone with heavily planted tanks - to set myself up for 1+ month maintenance intervals. I went into the set-up with intention of only needing to water change, scrub, etc - once a month or less (once the tank is established). So far two of the 4 are there and maintain stable parameters for well over a month plus. The 2 that aren’t there are new tanks, and it takes me a few months to get them dialed in. That said, depending on where one posts that information, the thought that I wouldn’t water change my 3.5g more than once a month (or less) would be heresy and get one’s self banned from a group. 
Someone posted about garbage to gospel earlier - that’s the truth. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/1/2022 at 4:02 AM, Pepere said:

Well, it sure begs the question…. What is the purpose of a water change?  What is the goal we hope to accomplish when doing a water change?

 

if ammonia, nitrites are 0 and nitrates are under 20, and ph, gh and kh are good, already, what exactly is a water change going to accomplish?  Maybe add some trace minerals?

Exactly. 
I think it’s some unspoken “law” in fishkeeping. But you are right, if all your numbers are good - why change the water, just for the sake of changing water?

I have only done so to prevent “old tank syndrome” as the tanks are so small that if I let the pH drift too far, then the water change could shock them in such a small tank. 
That said, I have just short of liquid rock coming out of my tap - so it’s pretty buffered against wild swings. 
I don’t think people actually try to learn the “why” behind certain actions, so they can determine if it is applicable to their tanks. I’m sure if my water was more acidic and not near as buffered, it would be more risky to go as long as I do but the rule people are taught is “must change” not “this is why you must change.”

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...