What should plant parameters be? How do people know?

[BettasAreSuperior]

Hi all! I'm currently trying to "balance" my tank and I wanted to measure my phosphate, calcium, potassium, and iron to see if my parameters were low or high, but I have no idea where to start. I'm not sure what my parameters should be. I know you need a specific amount for your aquarium to be balanced but there's so many opinions online that I don't know which one is right. I watched Irene's video on nutrient deficiencies in planted aquariums and it helped, but I just don't get how she knew they were too low or high. She knew they were out of whack, but how'd she'd know that they needed to be lowered or increased? How do people in general know? I'm so stuck, I don't know what my parameters should be for my tank to be balanced for the elements bolded above. I so want to achieve the "balanced tank," but I need  help. Desperately.

My tank's info: Freshwater, moderately planted (a lot more plants will be planted soon), fluval 3.0 light. Ammonia: 0 ppm. Nitrite: 0 ppm. Nitrate: 20 ppm. Ph: 7.6. (If you guys need the gh and kh, lmk) This tank has been established for I believe, a year or two.

Stocking:

8 harlequin rasboras

6 sterbai corydoras

5 otocinclus

2 nerite snails

Edited June 17, 2022 by BettasAreSuperior

[Bjorn]

On 6/16/2022 at 5:27 PM, BettasAreSuperior said:

I watched Irene's video on nutrient deficiencies in planted aquariums and it helped, but I just don't get how she knew they were too low or high.

She likely referred to a chart showing symptoms of nutrient deficiencies. That's the best way to figure out what nutrients are lacking imo, by observing your plants. Test kits will let you know what's in your water column but some plants do better when taking nutrients from the substrate.

I can't prove this theory but what makes sense to me is plants will help you balance your tank over time. Different species have their own nutritional profile needs and grow at a different rate. So eventually nutrients that you tend to have excess of will allow some plants that depend more heavily on it to flourish while the nutrients you lack will cause others to grow more slowly. Of course until it reaches that balance I'd say be consistent with your fertilizing/ water change schedule. React to whatever changes you think you need to make slowly and observe if those changes bring a positive, negative, or neutral reaction.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @BettasAreSuperior

I've been doing planted tanks for about 14 years now and I used to drive myself crazy trying to attain "perfect" conditions for plant growth.  Eventually I can to the conclusion that there are no "perfect" conditions because as @Bjorn stated different plant species have different requirements.  So I decided to go at planted tanks from a different direction....... I would set up the tank with parameters that best suited the fish and then add plants that could survive, growth, and possibly thrive in those conditions.

There is a planet full of plants out there and some will do well in the water parameters the fish I want to maintain like and some won't..... and that is OK.  I've discovered over time that plants are extremely versatile up to a point.  Species that thrive in high light can survive in lower light conditions if other parameters such as water parameters (pH, dKH, dGH) and nutrients (N, P, K, Ca, Mg, micros, and carbon) are good.

When I started out it used to drive me crazy when 'old timers' said the plants in their tanks 'talked' to them and told them what they needed.  However I have found that plants may not 'talk' but they can give us hints as to what issues may be causing poor growth or plant health.  Plants don't need a lot, just light, nutrients (including carbon), and reasonable water parameters to do well, it's my job to try and deliver on those needs.

Is a tank ever really "in balance"?  I don't know but I can state that the longer I do planted tanks the more I understand what I need to do and what I was doing wrong when I first started out.  My tanks today require substantially less maintenance than my tanks needed when I first started.  -Roy

[Torrey]

On 6/16/2022 at 10:27 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

When I started out it used to drive me crazy when 'old timers' said the plants in their tanks 'talked' to them and told them what they needed. 

🤷🏼‍♂️ What can I say, lived in enough places where I don't speak the language, and I learned the plants can talk... if I was willing to learn to observe well enough to "listen".

Then this study came out, that confirmed plants not only communicate, they have language.🧐

On 6/16/2022 at 6:27 PM, BettasAreSuperior said:

I watched Irene's video on nutrient deficiencies in planted aquariums and it helped, but I just don't get how she knew they were too low or high. She knew they were out of whack, but how'd she'd know that they needed to be lowered or increased?

I've been keeping tanks for over 4 decades and I managed a farm with an apple orchard (we focused more on poultry, but that's not the focus of your question) in WA for almost a decade, and while there's a lot of humor in my response to Roy, above, it is humor based on truth.

I have been surrounded by people who don't share a common language with me, my entire life. So I had to learn how to "listen" to visual language, and over the past decade I have learned (from science) I read/hear more from my nose and eyes than from my ears.

Roy, Mmiller, and others in here have posted great links that have helped me learn how to apply what I learned about terrestrial plants to aquatic plants, and guess what?

I still make mistakes that massively damage my plants, and offer me new learning opportunities.

So I'm going to second Roy with chasing perfection ==> a balanced tank is *exhausting*!

It's a lot more fun to embrace the concept of making lots of mistakes and *enjoy them* as learning opportunities. 

Here's a "plant to english" translation cheat sheet I use, and then when I get stumped, I come in here and ask questions to help clarify if I am identifying the problem properly (thank you Roy) and specifically if I am taking a good approach to solving the problem. Throw in the fact I have to be more water conscious than a lot of aquarists, because I'm keeping tanks in the desert and water here has never been plentiful, and I can't (responsibly) take the approach of using RO water and remineralizing to "get it perfect". Instead, I have to think outside of the box, and find solutions that work in my environment, with my abilities and access to resources.

So, if you are still reading, there's no single, one-size-fits-all approach that works, outside of embrace the concept of making mistakes so you can have fun. (Can it be done other ways? Sure! It just won't be as much fun. And if the hobby isn't fun.... is it really a hobby that we are enjoying?)

@Guppysnail, you and your algeacide/pest elimination crew might enjoy the two links above in response to plants talking.

[Mmiller2001]

On 6/16/2022 at 10:27 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Is a tank ever really "in balance"?

For about one day. So you relax, and then tomorrow, you are trying to find the source of "what just happened." 😁

[Guppysnail]

I take a similar road as @Seattle_Aquarist I try any and every plant I like no matter what the internet says I “can or cannot” grow in my water. If the plant will grow I keep it and care for it. If the plant chooses to not grow I simply move on to different plants. My hobby is for me to relax and enjoy. Forever fighting with plants that do not like my water and tanks robs me of some of that joy and relaxation. Surprisingly many things that “require” certain conditions like co2, soft water etc that I do not have do really well for me.  Many “not fussy low maintenance “ plants do very poorly for me. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Guppysnail

[JoeQ]

I don't think a tank is truly ever in balance, rather you are always making small adjustments to keep it from swinging wildly between an algea infested mess and a stagnant tank where even duckweed wont grow! 

[TeeJay]

Yes I agree with @Guppysnail some "easy plants" for me just done seem to make it. Yet others that are "harder" to grow in my water type to excellent. I try to keep my nitrates below 30 with using easy green one a week and root tabs about one a month with weekly water changes. This seems to keep me at a good baseline so far. With my tanks being setup for 5 months right now.

[JoeQ]

On 6/17/2022 at 6:35 PM, TeeJay said:

Yes I agree with @Guppysnail some "easy plants" for me just done seem to make it. Yet others that are "harder" to grow in my water type to excellent. I try to keep my nitrates below 30 with using easy green one a week and root tabs about one a month with weekly water changes. This seems to keep me at a good baseline so far. With my tanks being setup for 5 months right now.

Same.... I'd like to think it's cause my harder to grow plants are out competing algea and simple "easy" plants 

[BettasAreSuperior]

Thank you all for the help and advice. I completely agree that chasing a balance tank is so tiring, and I've gotten mine to the point where there's slight algae on the crypts and that's it. I feel like only 1 thing is holding me back; my soft water, causing a calcium deficiency in my plants. Otherwise, I feel like I should just let it be and just enjoy my tanks. I'm going to focus more on just enjoying my tanks and fixing small things here and there (like the calcium problem). Moreover, now I know if some elements are too low; the plants will show it. Thank you all so much for your advice and time! 

[JoeQ]

 

On 6/18/2022 at 2:02 AM, BettasAreSuperior said:

Thank you all for the help and advice. I completely agree that chasing a balance tank is so tiring, and I've gotten mine to the point where there's slight algae on the crypts and that's it. I feel like only 1 thing is holding me back; my soft water, causing a calcium deficiency in my plants. Otherwise, I feel like I should just let it be and just enjoy my tanks. I'm going to focus more on just enjoying my tanks and fixing small things here and there (like the calcium problem). Moreover, now I know if some elements are too low; the plants will show it. Thank you all so much for your advice and time! 

If you are having soft water problems id look into adding a wonder shell now and again. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by JoeQ

[Mmiller2001]

Here's my 2 cents. I recommend chasing numbers. Why? By chasing numbers, you eventually learn how to set those numbers. And learning how to set those numbers is fun in my opinion.

I'd imagine, while browsing the internet, you've seen a tank that just blows you away. If it's possible to, follow that tank and see what they are doing and emulate it. If they change a number, you change the same number. If you don't know how to change a specific number, ask! Eventually, you will see a pattern emerging, one that corresponds to most planted tanks. And honestly, once you know how, manipulating those numbers is actually very easy.

I want to quote Seattle's remarks. Notice key phrases. "trying to attain perfect conditions", " I would set up the tank with parameters that best suited the fish and then add plants that could survive".

He would never have learned how to set those parameters, had he not made himself crazy chasing them!

On 6/16/2022 at 10:27 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

I've been doing planted tanks for about 14 years now and I used to drive myself crazy trying to attain "perfect" conditions for plant growth.  Eventually I can to the conclusion that there are no "perfect" conditions because as @Bjorn stated different plant species have different requirements.  So I decided to go at planted tanks from a different direction....... I would set up the tank with parameters that best suited the fish and then add plants that could survive, growth, and possibly thrive in those conditions.

I don't recommend going out and buying every test available, but I would recommend learning about what's going into the tank. If you know those numbers, then they can be manipulated. Check your water source with a water report and maybe look into dry fertilizers.

I would read this, these methods include CO2 injection, but the ratios are still relevant. You would just simply reduce the overall amount if you are not injecting CO2. I have been following Tommy Wong's numbers in my Homebrew, and I'm finally seeing that lower dosing is the best path in my tanks.

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/beginners-planted-tank-101/how-much-to-dose?_pos=7&_sid=23f6c1306&_ss=r

Edited June 18, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Torrey]

On 6/18/2022 at 12:02 AM, BettasAreSuperior said:

Thank you all for the help and advice. I completely agree that chasing a balance tank is so tiring, and I've gotten mine to the point where there's slight algae on the crypts and that's it. I feel like only 1 thing is holding me back; my soft water, causing a calcium deficiency in my plants. Otherwise, I feel like I should just let it be and just enjoy my tanks. I'm going to focus more on just enjoying my tanks and fixing small things here and there (like the calcium problem). Moreover, now I know if some elements are too low; the plants will show it. Thank you all so much for your advice and time! 

WonderShell is helpful, especially if you have snails or shrimp. I am really enjoying adding crsuhed coral, and in one tank I am testing crushed oyster shells (left over from when we had poultry).

Glad you decided to relax and have fun (another reason I prefer crushed coral to wonder shell: the crushed coral lasts longer, seems to dissolve more slowly, and once the tank minerals get more stable it's simply a matter of watching plants, noticing the correlation between crushed coral time in tank and time before plants show magnesium or calcium deficiencies, and then you can start adding before there's a problem.