Fancy/ Fantail question-- First time breeder

[Penny Jeter]

The Punnett Squares for fish breeding must be so interesting.

Two Fancy Fantails, and 91  hatched offspring,  that range the gamut of resemblance!
Some appear almost like clones of one or both parents, while others  make me wonder what happened?

Their scales ranges from metallic, to nacreous, to matte.
Their bodies are all primarily short and rounded, but some also have a more pronounced "shoulder" to  them.
The eyes have a large back button on many, while others have a metallic eye with the more typical black center...some have one on each side.

The fins are strange too.
We didn't cull for minor fin issues, which has been interesting.

That said, I had a few FIN QUESTIONS:

1. One very identifiable one had only a spike for its dorsal fin, but was very mobile.  We kept it.
   It appears months later that the fin has "grown out"  to pretty much a full dorsal.
   Is that possible?
    
2. Others had slight to visibly altered caudal fin issues, but their mobility seemed fine.
   About 4 or so had a "pinned" (not sure if thats the correct phrase) lower caudal on one side, that probably eliminates them from sale, but doesn't hinder their mobility at all or existence as house pets for us. Is there any issue with this.
    
3. One was born with metallic scales, but has developed dark patches all over. Almost "holstein-ish." No water parameter issues.
   It's fins seemed normal for the first 5 months, but every so often the lower caudal on one side (and anal fin) appear to push out sideways on it. It then seems to return. Is this a normal occurrence?

I'll attach a photo for one that bulked up pretty quickly (the one I mentioned in Question #3 above).
He has developed the spots and the occasionally bent lower  caudal/anal.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Penny Jeter
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[Fish Folk]

@WhitecloudDynasty may have good feedback for you on these questions.

I don't breed Goldfish, but have minor experience breeding other species.

As for what you do when you cull, that is prerogative of each breeder. Many people euthanize. Some feed to larger predatory fish. Some keep culls as pets. Others still keep turtles, and feed to them.

Punnett squares are a bit unwieldy to sort through. I find it is easier to just look at maturing stock, and keep what I like / discard whatI don't like. Generally speaking, there are a variety of Punnet applications in each breeding project. Instead of one square pertaining to all of the traits, there are in fact a handful of Punnett squares. In a sense, you can almost think of it like a cube with a different punnet square on each surface. One square might deal with finnage; another might deal with coloration; another with body shape; another with scales . . . the list can be exhaustive. To make things more complicated, "Mendelian genetics" doesn't apply equally to all species or all traits. On top of that . . . you will need to be able to accurately deduce the dominant and recessive traits of the parents in the first place.

Sometimes environmental factors can affect maturation of your fish too, leaving the matter u in the air whether certain traits are genetic or environmental. I think the only ways to be very certain are after many, many years of experience with particular lines and species. 

[WhitecloudDynasty]

It's tricky breeding goldfish cause most wont breed true and their color may change even the breeder may change later on in life.

Sounds like you already know what fish to cull, I would get rid of them as pet or feeder and focus on your better fish. Sounds mean but if you focus more on the better fish it'll give them a better chance of showing their full potential.

Clampfin and deformity won't just go away. Unless it's a rip fin, which may grow back, but never as nice than the original 

 

[PineSong]

Wow, 91 baby goldfish! That's a lot of goldfish! I'd love to see a photo, I bet it's a treat to have them all wiggling around. 

@GardenStateGoldfish may have some experience to share re: the various fin and pigment questions. 

If you are keeping the 'handicapped' or oddly formed fish as pets or giving them to people who accept them as they are, I think that's fine and you can watch and see if the differences cause them any problems in future.

I have two guppies with extreme curvatures of the spine and I  kept them in the fry tank long after they were grown because I thought they would not survive long, but they are thriving many months after being put in a large community tank, although they are alarming to see and don't look like they should be able to live. I keep them separate from males so their health is not threatened by breeding and they don't pass on any genetic weakness that contributed to their form, but they appear happy and vigorous. I hope your oddly-formed juveniles will turn out likewise.

[Penny Jeter]

Thanks Pine, Fish Folk, and Whitecloud!

I am  in fact a "new breeder."
We kept only one hatch group (they've been laying eggs pretty reliably every 1-2 weeks since January (Wisconsin) with 100-200 eggs.
We've allowed them to be devoured before and after that group as 8 tanks are maxing us out.
We expected to see about a 30% -60% survival rate. We're currently at 77 or so from 91 fully hatched.

The spike dorsal was odd to me (it growing in full later). I'm not talking growth after injury—as a fry and juvi it had a single spike dorsal.
It's grown in full now. 

The fish in the image above has the weird lower caudal...but it straightens out often into correct position.

The heterochromia (thats not the correct term I'm sure--but one eye completely black and the other metallic with a black center) is apparent in the fertilizing male (daddy), and  its on several of the juvies (maybe 20-30%) -- this doesn't compromise them at all I imagine. Is that right?

Are any of these red flags for either keeping as pets or selling?

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

@Penny Jeteras long as you’re up front with people about potential deformity that’s fine if they’re going to be pets. Make sure they don’t breed them or at least get some assurance that they won’t breed them.

 
In terms of sales I try to sell them the ones that aren’t quite culls but not my best stock. If you look through your 90+ fish you should define what your breed standard is and keep those fish a mix of males and females. I would watch some of Charles Clapsadles videos on Goliad Farms YT he goes through how he sets his breeding standards. 

[Penny Jeter]

I realize I keep posting  here...I guess  I am lacking in confidence on several of the fish and hoping others may be able to let me know the right answers/ their experience.
As they got older/more developed, some things began emerging which I am uncertain of... and I just let them grow.
I tried to shoot a few iphone shots (sorry about the quality--they swim around so quickly!).

2248 and 2249 shows one we call "Tiger."
Had a  black stripe that developed near its shoulders and grew.
We've grown attached to this specific one and will likely keep him, but there are several others with this same coloration, and unsure how to proceed with them (sell/cull)?
In one shot you can also make out he has one  black iris and one typically colored ("Bowie" eyes;-).

2247 is one of the runts. A bit undersized and super-pale in color.
Very vigorous swimmer/active with the biggest fish alongside.
Pinky-red, fully formed dark pink gils like father/fertilizing fish. (S/C?)

2246 has not changed color yet. Most of the others are golden, pale/peach or striped.
Its a good size fish...just not yet orangey yet. Otherwise active and healthy behavior.
Some others are similar.(S/C?)

2245 has the odd/curled-looking gill on one side. The sunlight looks weird on this shot, but it's the best one of it.
He's very active and one of the larger  fish in that particular aquarium. There are a few like this--with a gil that is curled or formed oddly on one side.
They seem very active and healthy otherwise. My feeling was that these would likely be culled or saved as personal pets?
Someone said  in another forum that if both gils were curled, they  may be sellable to some .

Any feedback appreciated. I think I am nervous as this is my first rodeo:-)

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Penny Jeter