Need advice on mini-cycle

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Hey guys. Have a bit of a problem going on with either a mini cycle or a false ammonia reading. Looking for some advice to see what you guys think. 

Tank has been up 10 years and tested regularly. I can't even tell you how long it's been since I had an ammonia reading. Years. The only things I usually get a reading on is nitrate and the ph/gh/kh etc.

Here are the things that happened just before or during the issue.

Switched dechlorinator from AquaSafe Plus to Prime.

34 mystery snail babies born about a week ago. In breeder box. Feeding fine, powdery foods. Breeder box cleaned daily; food replaced. Snails checked for well-being daily. Moved out of tank for observation if questionable. Returned to tank if living.

5 new tetra added to tank from a quarantine tank. I added them in the morning, and then the snails were born in the afternoon. I didn't intend for both events to occur same day!

Filter (Penguin biowheel 200) died and was changed to a smaller filter (Fluval Aquaclear 30), but the media was not changed.  Both are suitable for this 29 gallon tank.  However, not all the media from the previous filter would fit in the smaller filter, so I had to cut some of the sponges down.  Aquaclear was loaded with a coarse sponge, filter floss, and really old well seasoned bio rings. Also at this time I added a prefilter sponge, but it was the wrong size and I tore it while putting it on causing a big gap that didn't cover a section of the intake basket. It looked awful but I left it there. About a week passed and the Aquaclear had some problems. A power outage occurred and power was restored quickly.  But the Aquaclear dumps all the water out when it loses power so while I was at work the filter was running dry for hours until I arrived home.  I got it going again by adding water.

During the week that passed I had been on the forums and received help with repairing my Penguin.  Turns out the impeller just wasn't reseated properly after I cleaned it.  Switched back to the Penguin because I cannot rely on a filter that dumps all water; I'm in FL and we are going into storm/hurricane season; I can't always be home to reprime filters. Put all the old gunky media back into the Penguin.  Added some more coarse sponge back since it's a bigger filter.  Removed prefilter sponge because of the tear. Wanted to replace w/ finer media (floss) around the intake basket due to snails.  I suspect some snails got out through the slats of the breeder box on hatch day, so, just in case, I need to "childproof" the tank.  Despite the short run on this prefilter sponge, it had collect quite a bunch of stuff. Left the prefilter sponge in the tank because I plan to squish it into a new 10 gallon I'm about to start up. Also the biowheel itself was not added back because it had a tear. It had dried up anyway.

I guess that's it.  I'm at 4 days of ammonia readings.

Stats

29 gallon high

Temp 78

6/11 - amm .2, nitrite 0, nitrate 10, pH 7.5.  Water changed, 25%, used Prime.  Found a dead tetra. It had a swollen belly, possibly was eggbound. This was its status for weeks and it was the only fish with any symptoms. While it was alive it ate well and schooled normally.

6/12 - amm .2, nitrite 0, nitrate 10, pH 7.5.  Water changed, 25%, used Prime.

6/13 - same as above but used AquaSafe Plus because I had learned Prime can give a false ammonia reading.

6/14 - amm went up to .25, nitrite 0, nitrate 10, pH 7.5.  Water changed, 50%, used AquaSafe Plus. Water tested immediately after water change. ammonia reading unchanged. (??)

Water test from the tap - 0 ammonia

Stocking level: 4 black neons, 5 pristella tetra, 1 mystery snail, 1 nerite snail, 1 bolivian ram, 34 mystery snail babies (sesame seed sized) in breeder box

I used aqadvisor and I'm understocked, fish wise. Baby snail wise, I doubt there is much bioload there. These things cannot easily be seen without a magnifying glass.

I'm not sure what's going on or what I should do.  I'm thinking add FritzZyme?

Edited June 14, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Also if this helps, for water changes I dose the tank w/ dechlorinator and then refill from tap, water @ same temp.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Guppysnail]

I know of you egg yolk over feeding. I have done that. The fineness of it coats surfaces and being a protein released a lot of ammonia for me. It took several days- a week to rectify itself. I just did extra water changes to keep it safe. 

You may want to check your tap as well this time of year things get sketchy. Check ammonia both before dechlor and 30 minutes after decholr for ammonia. (Use a cup for checks not tank)

Edited June 14, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Tank refill process

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 6/14/2022 at 9:25 AM, Guppysnail said:

I know of you egg yolk over feeding. I have done that. The fineness of it coats surfaces and being a protein released a lot of ammonia for me. It took several days- a week to rectify itself. I just did extra water changes to keep it safe. 

Very true @Guppysnail. It took a training period to learn how much (or how little) to feed those babies. 
 

On 6/14/2022 at 9:25 AM, Guppysnail said:

You may want to check your tap as well this time of year things get sketchy. Check ammonia both before dechlor and 30 minutes after decholr for ammonia. (Use a cup for checks not tank)

I ram some experiments in this yesterday. I did it in a bucket. Tap ammonia 0. The dechlorinated water “seemed” to have a small reading. I tested with 2.5 gallon bucket and 3 drops of prime. Did it again after adding another 3 drops of prime. Seemed like hint of ammonia. I’m not sure. I don’t know how to dose prime in such a small quantity to run a good, valuable experiment. (I didn’t wait 30 minutes either, but I did stir the water). I don’t know what I’m doing LOL 🤷‍♀️

Failed to mention I added a sponge filter to the tank 6/1.  Just wanted to seed it before it goes into 10 gallon.  

[Guppysnail]

My tap water looks like that with prime. Many have said the same and that it is a false reading because of the chemical composition in prime. On mine I actually bought a seachem test and I have the coop strips to test this theory.  For mine the seachem ammonia alert and the seachem reagent test and coop strips shows no ammonia but api liquid shows just a slight hint of green.  I cannot distinguish pale colors well but hubby helped me.  I’m not saying this is your case just a possible.

@modified lungmay be able to shed light in the scenario of prime producing false readings as I really know nothing about chemistry.  For now I would personally dechlorinate as you have been then add a second dose when done to fix the ammonia if it really is present until your biofilter and plants can clean it up. Not certain it’s the right thing it’s just what I would do. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

My gut was telling me to move away from Prime so I can rely on my readings again but a) I don't know how many water changes it will take to get Prime out of the tank or b) if changing away from Prime is a bad idea because if the ammonia is real, Prime has ammo-lock.

[Guppysnail]

I like prime because it detoxes heavy metal ie. Copper which is in my tap water. I switch to safe which I thought was exactly the same as prime but dry. I started having shrimp and snail issues so I called seachem and they said there are several differences heavy metal detox being one. I switched back and all was well again. I’ve been a seachem girl for many years and other than amquel have never used other types so have no comparison ability. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 6/14/2022 at 9:57 AM, Guppysnail said:

I like prime because it detoxes heavy metal ie. Copper which is in my tap water. I switch to safe which I thought was exactly the same as prime but dry. I started having shrimp and snail issues so I called seachem and they said there are several differences heavy metal detox being one. I switched back and all was well again. I’ve been a seachem girl for many years and other than amquel have never used other types so have no comparison ability. 

If I keep using Prime, would the ammonia reading ever go back to zero? I feel like I'll be on daily water changes if I'm not sure.

[Flumpweesel]

I use prime and as long as I don't test the same day as added then it doesn't give me any false readings. Although I think the false positive readings are more likely when chloramin is being treated which isn't used by my water authority.

Sounds like right l enough things changed over a few days that could well upset the cycle. Small regular changes until everything settles again I am sure it won't take long.

[Guppysnail]

If I test right after water change mine perpetually reads a slight hint of green.  Whether it real or false reading but it goes normal bright yellow in hours and I have never seen it affect my critters. So I adjusted to that’s my new ok color if I test immediately after which I seldom do. I jam seachem alert monitors in and rarely test ever. M understanding is they only measure the harmful ammonia but again I’m not a chemist by any stretch of imagination. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 6/14/2022 at 10:15 AM, Flumpweesel said:

I use prime and as long as I don't test the same day as added then it doesn't give me any false readings. Although I think the false positive readings are more likely when chloramin is being treated which isn't used by my water authority.

Sounds like right l enough things changed over a few days that could well upset the cycle. Small regular changes until everything settles again I am sure it won't take long.

Thanks @Flumpweesel

Do you guys think I should add some bacteria? Fritz Zyme?

[Flumpweesel]

On 6/14/2022 at 3:17 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

should add some bacteria? Fritz Zyme?

Only if you happen to have it. I think it will balance soon. 

[modified lung]

I wouldn't worry much about 0.25 ppm ammonia readings. Most tests have a range of accuracy. Ammonia tests are very inaccurate below 0.25 ppm. You could actually have 0.05 ppm, which isn't a big deal, and the color will look almost exactly like 0.25 to the human eye.

The little spike you're having is probably because of all the little changes your bacteria colony has gone through lately. Smaller filter probably had a different flow rate, the power outage, more bioloads, and I think you said some media switched tanks.

Bacteria doesn't like change. Especially when the changes start stacking up. The big water changes are another change being added on top of the rest. If you leave it alone for a few days, making sure the ammonia doesn't go above 0.25 ppm, your cycle will probably fully recover.

I don't think you need any bottled bacteria. Your bacteria didn't die. They're just stalled.

For Prime, if you have chloramine, which contains ammonia, prime releases the ammonia into the water. If you have chlorine, prime breaks chlorine into chloride which can interfere with liquid test kit results if there's enough of it. That could be the reason for false high readings. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 6/14/2022 at 1:16 PM, modified lung said:

If you leave it alone for a few days, making sure the ammonia doesn't go above 0.25 ppm, your cycle will probably fully recover.

I don't think you need any bottled bacteria. Your bacteria didn't die. They're just stalled.

Thanks so much for your insightful response. I will monitor. 

 

On 6/14/2022 at 1:16 PM, modified lung said:

prime releases the ammonia into the water.

Harmless ammonia? (Ammo-locked?)

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/14/2022 at 6:11 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Filter (Penguin biowheel 200) died and was changed to a smaller filter (Fluval Aquaclear 30), but the media was not changed.  Both are suitable for this 29 gallon tank.  However, not all the media from the previous filter would fit in the smaller filter, so I had to cut some of the sponges down.  Aquaclear was loaded with a coarse sponge, filter floss, and really old well seasoned bio rings. Also at this time I added a prefilter sponge, but it was the wrong size and I tore it while putting it on causing a big gap that didn't cover a section of the intake basket. It looked awful but I left it there. About a week passed and the Aquaclear had some problems. A power outage occurred and power was restored quickly.  But the Aquaclear dumps all the water out when it loses power so while I was at work the filter was running dry for hours until I arrived home.  I got it going again by adding water.

During the week that passed I had been on the forums and received help with repairing my Penguin.  Turns out the impeller just wasn't reseated properly after I cleaned it.  Switched back to the Penguin because I cannot rely on a filter that dumps all water; I'm in FL and we are going into storm/hurricane season; I can't always be home to reprime filters. Put all the old gunky media back into the Penguin.  Added some more coarse sponge back since it's a bigger filter.  Removed prefilter sponge because of the tear. Wanted to replace w/ finer media (floss) around the intake basket due to snails.  I suspect some snails got out through the slats of the breeder box on hatch day, so, just in case, I need to "childproof" the tank.  Despite the short run on this prefilter sponge, it had collect quite a bunch of stuff. Left the prefilter sponge in the tank because I plan to squish it into a new 10 gallon I'm about to start up. Also the biowheel itself was not added back because it had a tear. It had dried up anyway.

Just a quick aside. On a 29G tank I run a 50G filter. The flow isn't too much.  I tried it with a 75G filter (turning it down) and it was too much.  On the AC filters I usually run two sponges, 1 ceramic media bag.  I don't know how this relates to your setup, but just something to keep in mind.  How the filter is stocked is going to help or hurt stability.  The tank looks fine, the readings all look fine.  It will hopefully be something where the snails don't go too crazy and the tank itself can catch up.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

@nabokovfan87 yep, the Penguin (which YOU helped me fix ❤️ - thanks again for that) is for tanks up to 50. The outflow is noisy due to flow rate and the fact that I have to leave a 1” gap for the Nerite to hang out in the air and that’s also where the mystery snail lays her eggs. So I stuff two strips of coarse sponge into the outflow and it’s perfect. Sponges are an extra bacteria surface too. Never can have too many.

Snails won’t remain in this tank, but while they are teeny tiny they will, in the breeder box. And 100 more eggs are about to hatch. Lord help me. 😳 

I wonder if the 100 (mainly feeding them all their powdery foods) will crash the cycle yet again. I’m nervous!

@nabokovfan87 I have 2 coarse sponge, bio rings and filter floss in there. Found the filter floss to be necessary. There were too many floating particulates & mulm without it.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/14/2022 at 6:52 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

@nabokovfan87 I have 2 coarse sponge, bio rings and filter floss in there. Found the filter floss to be necessary. There were too many floating particulates & mulm without it

Agreed. I use fine foam it's a green color

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 6/14/2022 at 10:57 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Agreed. I use fine foam it's a green color

Mine is green on one side and white on the other. It came in a big roll and I just cut it to size.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Today. Better.

@Katherine

Edited June 15, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[modified lung]

On 6/15/2022 at 3:49 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

 

@Katherine

It's hard to tell how much ammonia is in your cat.

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/15/2022 at 6:37 AM, modified lung said:

It's hard to tell how much ammonia is in your cat.

Using the eyes, looks like 0.5-1.0 of sorts.

Glad to see progress!

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I haven’t changed water since you guys said wait it out. I also haven’t fed the fish, only the snail babies. And things keep improving. Everything is rebalancing itself. 
 

I did add a teeny smidge of Prime yesterday to ensure the ammonia is nontoxic, because the last 2 water changes I used AquaSafe Plus. I wasn’t sure how much if any Prime was still in the tank.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[modified lung]

On 6/14/2022 at 12:27 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Harmless ammonia? (Ammo-locked?)

There's disagreement about that but I think there's a lot of evidence that says it's locked in some way.

[Torrey]

On 6/14/2022 at 7:24 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I dose the tank w/ dechlorinator

May be antidotal, may be significant:

I have more stability if I dose the water with Prime in a separate container and let sit while I suction the tank. It also allows me to use less Prime, becuase I test my tap for chlorine/chlormine before I treat, and then select 1 drop/2 drops/ up to 10 drops/gallon [of water being replaced] depending on my readings. Chloramine generally won't read as ammonia until after the dechlorinator breaks the molecular bond between the chlorine and ammonia (nitrogen) atoms.

I second Guppysnail's experience with high protein powdery foods for fry (I don't really separate my baby snails like the two of you do, I only recently started target feeding my snails😅) quickly raising ammonia levels.