Options for biological filtration?

[dan12boy]

Hey everyone. I want to increase the bio capacity of my filters, both my hob and canister filter and wanted to know if sponges were the best ways of having the most beneficial bacteria or if there’s better media for this purpose. 

[HH Morant]

Sponge is the best. 30 ppi is good because it has more surface area than 20 ppi, but does not get clogged up like 40 ppi. Aquariumscience.org has a great article on filter media.

[nabokovfan87]

What are you using now?

[dan12boy]

On 6/9/2022 at 11:14 PM, HH Morant said:

Sponge is the best. 30 ppi is good because it has more surface area than 20 ppi, but does not get clogged up like 40 ppi. Aquariumscience.org has a great article on filter media.

Awesome, I read the article but it says the fluidized k1 media does the best work? What is k1 media? 

On 6/9/2022 at 11:29 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

What are you using now?

For my 20 high hob it has sponges in but I took some out to help cycle my new 75. With my 75 I’m using all the filter media that came with it except the carbon and I added sponges where the carbon should be.

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/9/2022 at 8:45 PM, dan12boy said:

What is k1 media?

plastic. fluidized filter use only.  Similar to the Ziss bubble bio moving bed media filter.

 

On 6/9/2022 at 8:45 PM, dan12boy said:

For my 20 high hob it has sponges in but I took some out to help cycle my new 75. With my 75 I’m using all the filter media that came with it except the carbon and I added sponges where the carbon should be.

What kind though?  What kind of media?  I think if you're running a canister I would highly recommend going to pondguru's channel to get tips on how to setup the canister.  Input ---> Sponges ---> Media ---> Chemical

I generally have "more stable" or better results when I run sponge and the media.  I used to run a lot of the aquaclear/fluval media that fits in the AC70.  Locally it's what I had around and it "worked".  I am running tidal's now so they all came with the matrix and I haven't swapped it out with anything.  If I were to ever run anything higher quality I would probably find something that is sintered glass media.

[tolstoy21]

I'll stir up the waters here. I'm sure one media type -- sponge, ceramic rings, lava rock, plastic, etc. -- works better than the other in some measured laboratory test or under some very specific use-case. But honestly, in practice, most of us don't really notice the difference. Just make sure you have the filter sized right to the tank so whatever you go with in the end has the capacity of holding the amount of media you need. 

I personally like sponge in my HOBs. I'll use the sponge that came with the unit, plus filter floss for water polishing. I've also used ceramics, lava rock, nothing at all, and they all seems to do fine (even nothing at all).

On 6/9/2022 at 11:45 PM, dan12boy said:

With my 75 I’m using all the filter media that came with it except the carbon and I added sponges where the carbon should be.

Personally, I think that's the way to go, because you seem to already have thought of and done this, so no extra effort or money involved!

Edited June 10, 2022 by tolstoy21

[BuzzDaddy21]

On 6/9/2022 at 11:09 PM, dan12boy said:

hob and canister filter

I also use HOB`s and canister filters but not on the same tank. I really like a round canister filter (Stainless Steel) because you are able to pack a lot whatever you want (I use several different types of sponges and other media and pack tight. (I just serviced the can after 9 weeks just to check how it was doing, could of went a lot longer.)

 

On 6/9/2022 at 11:57 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

pondguru's channel

How do I put this? Yes, I`ve seen his channel, he pushes biohome media and yes, I got some but I`m not sure how good it is but it's very expensive IMO. 

 

[HH Morant]

Beneficial bacteria needs 2 things -  surface area and flow.  The high surface area claimed by matrix and similar media is meaningless because there is no flow through the media, so no beneficial bacteria can grow there.

 People use matrix and similar media and believe it works fine, and it does work fine for the purpose of removing ammonia and nitrites. But for clean, clear water with low bacteria counts in the water column (the bacteria in the water column is the bad kind, not beneficial) 30 ppi foam is much better.

When I changed my canisters to 100% foam, I noticed the difference. The water was clearer.

If you switch media, do it in stages. It took me a couple of months to convert to 100% 30 ppi foam.

One benefit of 30 ppi foam - and zero mechanical filtration - is that I rarely open my canisters now. The foam does not clog easily and it does not need to be changed. You only need to open the canister if there is noticeably less flow.

I highly recommend the aquariumscience.org articles on filtration and filter media.

 

[Biotope Biologist]

On 6/9/2022 at 8:09 PM, dan12boy said:

Hey everyone. I want to increase the bio capacity of my filters, both my hob and canister filter and wanted to know if sponges were the best ways of having the most beneficial bacteria or if there’s better media for this purpose. 

Uh-oh you opened a can of worms! 
 

So I am going to stir the waters even more and say. Lab tests be hecken hecked here. Same with my way or the highway type arguments. Having a mixed media (as space allows) bed with different porosity of sponge material and whatever high surface area material you want is best. The most important thing, which a few have touched on, is unrestricted flow.

 

To allow unrestricted flow I usually have a 2 part filter floss at the beginning. Sometimes you can buy this material pre-2 parted. What I mean by that is one side is more porous with large holes to catch larger debris. The other side is much less porous to catch fine debris and sediment. This is the only thing I will wash or throw away. The rest of my materials are bacteria beds that are best left undisturbed. Hopefully your mechanical filtration does it’s job and doesn’t allow debris to settle on these.

 

I’d like to say though. I know volcanic rock is very porous and technically a good candidate for bacteria. But I have found this media gets clogged very very easily so I stay away from such fragile things.

 

 

Also while aquariumscience can be a decent resource. I’d take some of the things he says with a grain of salt. He could be better about citing his sources as well.

 

I like playing with sumps and no sump has been setup the same. The only place that I don’t stray far from the curve is bioreactors. If it calls for a specified media I tend to stay around that area with little to no deviation. And that’s not because of some optimized bacteria bed, but rather physics and the engineering of the system. If they say water flow is optimized with a specific media, I tend to believe them.

 

-it should also be noted that I’m cheap and lazy-

[gardenman]

In general, if you want more bio capacity in your tank you just need more stuff in the tank. The bacteria are all over the place but need a surface to inhabit. The more surfaces you provide (gravel, decorations, sponges, etc.) the more places there are for bacteria to inhabit. A clean sterile tank with no substrate and no decorations will have less surface area for bacteria to inhabit. A cluttered, messy tank with all kinds of stuff in it will have more areas for bacteria to inhabit. You'll see people with sumps with everything known to mankind (sponges, bio balls, K1 media, gravel, lava rock, etc.) thrown into the sump and their water is great. Why? Because they have a lot of stuff for the bacteria to inhabit. The bacteria just need a place to live. Give them that and you're golden.

[dan12boy]

On 6/9/2022 at 11:57 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

plastic. fluidized filter use only.  Similar to the Ziss bubble bio moving bed media filter.

 

What kind though?  What kind of media?  I think if you're running a canister I would highly recommend going to pondguru's channel to get tips on how to setup the canister.  Input ---> Sponges ---> Media ---> Chemical

I generally have "more stable" or better results when I run sponge and the media.  I used to run a lot of the aquaclear/fluval media that fits in the AC70.  Locally it's what I had around and it "worked".  I am running tidal's now so they all came with the matrix and I haven't swapped it out with anything.  If I were to ever run anything higher quality I would probably find something that is sintered glass media.

I believe the type of media is just some ceramic things and filter floss with my added sponge. Is the fluidized k1 only found in the ziss? 

On 6/10/2022 at 7:04 AM, tolstoy21 said:

I'll stir up the waters here. I'm sure one media type -- sponge, ceramic rings, lava rock, plastic, etc. -- works better than the other in some measured laboratory test or under some very specific use-case. But honestly, in practice, most of us don't really notice the difference. Just make sure you have the filter sized right to the tank so whatever you go with in the end has the capacity of holding the amount of media you need. 

I personally like sponge in my HOBs. I'll use the sponge that came with the unit, plus filter floss for water polishing. I've also used ceramics, lava rock, nothing at all, and they all seems to do fine (even nothing at all).

Personally, I think that's the way to go, because you seem to already have thought of and done this, so no extra effort or money involved!

I’m just going to add sponges to empty compartments in the filter, I doubt I’d be stocking super heavy but just in case want the most surface area for the most beneficial bacteria to grow for the tank. Sponges seem the way to go here.

On 6/10/2022 at 8:06 AM, BuzzDaddy21 said:

I also use HOB`s and canister filters but not on the same tank. I really like a round canister filter (Stainless Steel) because you are able to pack a lot whatever you want (I use several different types of sponges and other media and pack tight. (I just serviced the can after 9 weeks just to check how it was doing, could of went a lot longer.)

 

How do I put this? Yes, I`ve seen his channel, he pushes biohome media and yes, I got some but I`m not sure how good it is but it's very expensive IMO. 

 

What different types of sponges are there? The black one isn’t the only kind? 

On 6/10/2022 at 8:37 AM, HH Morant said:

Beneficial bacteria needs 2 things -  surface area and flow.  The high surface area claimed by matrix and similar media is meaningless because there is no flow through the media, so no beneficial bacteria can grow there.

 People use matrix and similar media and believe it works fine, and it does work fine for the purpose of removing ammonia and nitrites. But for clean, clear water with low bacteria counts in the water column (the bacteria in the water column is the bad kind, not beneficial) 30 ppi foam is much better.

When I changed my canisters to 100% foam, I noticed the difference. The water was clearer.

If you switch media, do it in stages. It took me a couple of months to convert to 100% 30 ppi foam.

One benefit of 30 ppi foam - and zero mechanical filtration - is that I rarely open my canisters now. The foam does not clog easily and it does not need to be changed. You only need to open the canister if there is noticeably less flow.

I highly recommend the aquariumscience.org articles on filtration and filter media.

 

So using 100% sponges in all my compartments would work? Since my tank just started do I really have to do it slowly still or I could go ahead right now? 

On 6/10/2022 at 9:30 AM, Biotope Biologist said:

Uh-oh you opened a can of worms! 
 

So I am going to stir the waters even more and say. Lab tests be hecken hecked here. Same with my way or the highway type arguments. Having a mixed media (as space allows) bed with different porosity of sponge material and whatever high surface area material you want is best. The most important thing, which a few have touched on, is unrestricted flow.

 

To allow unrestricted flow I usually have a 2 part filter floss at the beginning. Sometimes you can buy this material pre-2 parted. What I mean by that is one side is more porous with large holes to catch larger debris. The other side is much less porous to catch fine debris and sediment. This is the only thing I will wash or throw away. The rest of my materials are bacteria beds that are best left undisturbed. Hopefully your mechanical filtration does it’s job and doesn’t allow debris to settle on these.

 

I’d like to say though. I know volcanic rock is very porous and technically a good candidate for bacteria. But I have found this media gets clogged very very easily so I stay away from such fragile things.

 

 

Also while aquariumscience can be a decent resource. I’d take some of the things he says with a grain of salt. He could be better about citing his sources as well.

 

I like playing with sumps and no sump has been setup the same. The only place that I don’t stray far from the curve is bioreactors. If it calls for a specified media I tend to stay around that area with little to no deviation. And that’s not because of some optimized bacteria bed, but rather physics and the engineering of the system. If they say water flow is optimized with a specific media, I tend to believe them.

 

-it should also be noted that I’m cheap and lazy-

So could I have maybe the large filter floss in the first compartment, smaller filter floss in the second and then just regular sponges in the last couple compartments? 

[gardenman]

On 6/10/2022 at 9:43 AM, dan12boy said:

I believe the type of media is just some ceramic things and filter floss with my added sponge. Is the fluidized k1 only found in the ziss? 

Fluidized K1 media and its cousins are very common in the pond hobby and elsewhere. There are countless YouTube videos of DIY K1 reactors using soda/water bottles for aquariums. In theory the open spaces of K1 media allow safe places for bacteria to lurk while the bumping/grinding the media does knocks off older, less effective bacteria and creating new places for new, younger, more vibrant bacteria.

[dan12boy]

On 6/10/2022 at 9:40 AM, gardenman said:

In general, if you want more bio capacity in your tank you just need more stuff in the tank. The bacteria are all over the place but need a surface to inhabit. The more surfaces you provide (gravel, decorations, sponges, etc.) the more places there are for bacteria to inhabit. A clean sterile tank with no substrate and no decorations will have less surface area for bacteria to inhabit. A cluttered, messy tank with all kinds of stuff in it will have more areas for bacteria to inhabit. You'll see people with sumps with everything known to mankind (sponges, bio balls, K1 media, gravel, lava rock, etc.) thrown into the sump and their water is great. Why? Because they have a lot of stuff for the bacteria to inhabit. The bacteria just need a place to live. Give them that and you're golden.

Okay thank you! The tank is gonna have mostly plants rather than hard scape but it does have sand and possibly some wood and rock will be added too. 

On 6/10/2022 at 9:47 AM, gardenman said:

Fluidized K1 media and its cousins are very common in the pond hobby and elsewhere. There are countless YouTube videos of DIY K1 reactors using soda/water bottles for aquariums. In theory the open spaces of K1 media allow safe places for bacteria to lurk while the bumping/grinding the media does knocks off older, less effective bacteria and creating new places for new, younger, more vibrant bacteria.

So k1 media needs a specific type of filter box or machinery to work how it’s intended to work? Meaning it can’t just be dumped in a hob or canister then? 

[Biotope Biologist]

On 6/10/2022 at 6:43 AM, dan12boy said:

 

So could I have maybe the large filter floss in the first compartment, smaller filter floss in the second and then just regular sponges in the last couple compartments? 

That’s how I would do it. And to answer your other question since you are just setting up you can switch media all at once. Once you like the way it runs, leave the bacteria bed alone. Only change out the floss that gets gunked up and your water should be crystal clear. I will reuse the floss 2-3 times depending on how gross it gets before I throw it away.

 

On 6/10/2022 at 6:48 AM, dan12boy said:

Okay thank you! The tank is gonna have mostly plants rather than hard scape but it does have sand and possibly some wood and rock will be added too. 

So k1 media needs a specific type of filter box or machinery to work how it’s intended to work? Meaning it can’t just be dumped in a hob or canister then? 

K1 is designed for fluidized beds and bioreactors. You can dump it in to make a bed, but I’d think it would be easier and more available to use foam or ceramic or some other high surface area materials.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Biotope Biologist

[Wrencher_Scott]

On 6/10/2022 at 6:48 AM, dan12boy said:

Okay thank you! The tank is gonna have mostly plants rather than hard scape but it does have sand and possibly some wood and rock will be added too. 

So k1 media needs a specific type of filter box or machinery to work how it’s intended to work? Meaning it can’t just be dumped in a hob or canister then? 

K1 can be used just placed in the filter basket and still works well. I use it in one of my many baskets, the rest have course foam (about 30 ppi). With that being said I think foam is a little better. I can tell you Matrix, bio balls, pumis stone, volanic rock, all that stuff is NOT very good. 

I see no need for any floss or other stuff like carbon, all it does is make you replace it. If you have good biofiltration there is no need for all this. 

By the way, the author of aquariumscience.org sites his sources very well. In fact I don't think I've ever read anything on aquariums online that do site anything but their own opinion. People get set in their ways and so it continues. When he doesn't have a source of study to site he tells you it's his opinion. If you ask me, his opinions are much better than most too. lol

If you look down the side of my 4 foot tank you can't see the water, it's perfectly clear. I use ZERO mechanical filtration, no floss, no carbon, it's all K1, course foam, and an under gravel filter. After using a Tidal 110 for a few months with so-so results I decided to go with a large canister and add on canister instead. Basically this means LOTS of foam. The results have been amazing. 

I've noticed when people come here with sick fish all everyone wants to know is what the water tests show, no mention of filtration. Like @HH Morant mentioned, you can easily process ammonia with any old filter but it takes a large one filled with a good media like foam to keep the water free of bad bacteria and that is what causes disease. In other words, getting zero ammonia and nitrite is easy, good clean water needs much more filter area. 

I've found that most filters come with some type of course foam that fits in it's trays, I just ordered a bunch more of those to put in the other trays. If you go to Petco this will cost you a fortune, Amazon not so much. 🙂

That's my $.02 

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/10/2022 at 6:43 AM, dan12boy said:

I believe the type of media is just some ceramic things and filter floss with my added sponge. Is the fluidized k1 only found in the ziss?

This might help.
 

 

Aquapros has a video as well, and it shows off the "difference" between different types of ceramic or other media and how they function in your filtration systems.

Pondguru also has a build he did for his pond filter, very interesting stuff to watch.
 

On 6/10/2022 at 9:02 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

I've found that most filters come with some type of course foam that fits in it's trays, I just ordered a bunch more of those to put in the other trays. If you go to Petco this will cost you a fortune, Amazon not so much. 🙂

100%.  Find a "quality" of foam you like and then have some on hand for whenever you need some.  HoBs stuffed with "good foam" is highly underrated at how good of a job it can do.  Especially if you do find a good progression of foam PPI from course, medium, to fine.  I use fine foam and don't even need to use filter floss or anything.

Edited June 10, 2022 by nabokovfan87
added link

[tolstoy21]

This is one of those things where you can most certainly go down the slippery slope into "paralysis by analysis".

Honestly, I'd just start with what you have, maybe add some simple polyfill you can pickup from a hobby shop for mechanical filtration, and then just go from there.

If, over the course of a few weeks, your filtration cannot keep up with keeping the water clean looking, maybe add a finer floss. If your filter cannot process the amount of waste present in the system, then go with a bigger filter or different, better media.

This is one of those things where you can definitely overthink things. Like I said earlier, I am sure that some media types are superior to others, but until you know what your needs are, it doesn't make sense (at least to me) to go with anything other than the simple sponge that came with the filter (maybe 2x those if you have the room) and some simple floss. Then if you encounter issues, start tweaking things. 

A Ferrari is a heck of a lot nicer and far superior to a bicycle and can measurably out-perform one in every road test, but if all you need is to get down to the end of your driveway to get the mail, then purchasing one would be overkill. (For that matter, a bike would be overkill too!).

Edited June 11, 2022 by tolstoy21

[tolstoy21]

On 6/10/2022 at 12:02 PM, Wrencher_Scott said:

you can easily process ammonia with any old filter but it takes a large one filled with a good media like foam to keep the water free of bad bacteria and that is what causes disease. In other words, getting zero ammonia and nitrite is easy, good clean water needs much more filter area. 

Totally agree with the clean water thing. This is why I like Polyfill in an HOB. Its very inexpensive and very good at pulling solid waste out of the water. It's very simple to change. You can also visually see when it needs to be changed. I also tend to oversize my HOBs a little for the tank they are on, unless this creates too much flow.

Clean water comes down to two things in my opinion (and yeah this is just an opinion based on what's been successful for me). 1) Removing physical waste from the system 2) Water changes. 

For me, I tend to focus on filters for their mechanical filtration capabilities. I do keep some simple sponge in them, for both mechanical and biological. But then, like I said, I go polyfill or those rolls/pads of filter floss, cut to size, placed in my sump. 

To be honest, my cleanest tank in my house, with crystal clear water, lots of healthy fish, and requiring minimal water changes, uses a simple, home-made under gravel filter and some floating pennywort.

Anyway, hoping this thread doesn't become a flame war. Everyone has their preferences. Mostly everything mentioned in this thread will work for your needs.

In my experience, water quality actually comes down to a single factor -- the human one -- that is, how well the aquarist does his or her job (not over stocking, not over feeding, water changing when needed, etc etc.). 

[Wrencher_Scott]

On 6/10/2022 at 2:16 PM, tolstoy21 said:

Totally agree with the clean water thing. This is why I like Polyfill in an HOB. Its very inexpensive and very good at pulling solid waste out of the water. It's very simple to change.

To be honest, my cleanest tank in my house, with crystal clear water, lots of healthy fish, and requiring minimal water changes, uses a simple, home-made under gravel filter and some floating pennywort.

THIS is what I'm talking about, lots of biofiltration for clean crystal clear water that goes with a healthy tank. Just like your tank with the undergravel. Not mechanical filtration like using polyfill. That crystal clear water is because of no bacteria in it, not waste. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Wrencher_Scott

[dan12boy]

On 6/10/2022 at 1:12 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

100%.  Find a "quality" of foam you like and then have some on hand for whenever you need some.  HoBs stuffed with "good foam" is highly underrated at how good of a job it can do.  Especially if you do find a good progression of foam PPI from course, medium, to fine.  I use fine foam and don't even need to use filter floss or anything.

Does your fine foam not get clogged quickly? But thank you so much. I think I’m gonna upgrade my 20high’s hob to a bigger one to have more sponge in it. And I’m going to stuff my canister filter with it too. Might do that slowly but over some weeks since my stocking in my 75 is at 4 small guppies so I don’t have to do it over a course of months.  

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/11/2022 at 9:11 AM, dan12boy said:

Does your fine foam not get clogged quickly? But thank you so much. I think I’m gonna upgrade my 20high’s hob to a bigger one to have more sponge in it. And I’m going to stuff my canister filter with it too. Might do that slowly but over some weeks since my stocking in my 75 is at 4 small guppies so I don’t have to do it over a course of months.  

It happens over time.  Instead of having an issue of "I want to let it sit for months" I have tried to have the mindset of checking the filter every week and bi-weekly.  There are times where I can let the filter run longer, but I don't think that's recommended.  I have the media in there to do it's thing and hold the strong bacteria, but I use the foams purely for mechanical filtration.  When you approach it this way, you can do something like have a ziss bubble bio in there so that you never have any issues with "strong bacteria" being present in the tank.  Even if your filter does have an issue, the ecosystem is there to sustain it long term.  In my 75G I was running 2 HoBs, 2 Ziss bubble bios.  I would clean one filter one week, one the next week.  Sometimes I did both. 

But.... to your question.  The very very coarse foam blocks major gunk.  The water goes through the sponge and then the medium pad does a lot of work.  I try to clean the filter when the medium sponge is saying it's time to do so.  This is a sponge that is similar to or slightly higher PPI than the aquaclear sponges (for reference).  I would like to find a better source for "pond foams" but finding those foams with dimples isn't easy.  Swisstropicals has foam, but none that's dimpled.

The Fine foam acts as a any other fine pad would, it polishes the water.  It might not make the water crystal clear as I've seen some tanks, but I can say without hesitation that it does an amazing job and my tanks are clear of fine particles when I use the finer foams.  If I run 1 coarse, 2 mediums, 1 fine, it seems to be a good way to extend the life and prefect a lot of clogging.  Again, I'd like to find some better foams.  The ones I have are just under 1" thick and with the dimples the actual "thickness" of the foam on the low spots can get too thin.  If I had a 1.5 or 2" foam with dimples, it would be an amazing product to use in HoBs and filter mod projects.

[Expectorating_Aubergine]

Terrestrial plants in the HOB for the win!

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/11/2022 at 2:48 PM, Pepere said:

Iam having a hard time understanding how more biofiltration eliminates bad bacteria for crystal clear water.

By what mechanism is extra biofiltration reducing bad bacteria? Is the biofilm mechanicaly filtering the bad bacteria?   Or is it suppressing by chemicals or enzymes?

I think the ziss bubble bio or moving bed filter might explain it better. Sometimes the media gets clogged and the bacteria can't function, that's one reason.  I would guess that another reason is because it just gets outcompeted by other bacteria until it can no longer function.  Even something like doing a water change, you forget about that sponge or something and it dries out, that might be all it takes.

I'm sure there are more experienced and people here with experience scientifically here that can really give you a solid answer.

[Brian]

On 6/9/2022 at 11:09 PM, dan12boy said:

Hey everyone. I want to increase the bio capacity of my filters, both my hob and canister filter and wanted to know if sponges were the best ways of having the most beneficial bacteria or if there’s better media for this purpose. 

I don’t want to go into why, how much you have and how much you need.   I once made a (DIY) pond filter with a bucket.  I used cheap (fabric store) stuffing and then sponge and then a box of lava rocks for grilling.  
 

[BuzzDaddy21]

On 6/10/2022 at 5:03 PM, tolstoy21 said:

This is one of those things where you can definitely overthink things

I sure have to agree with this and I`m not smart enough to understand all of the technical stuff but I don`t think anyone is wrong in how they approach the problem or what solutions will help. I think you have to weigh all options and find what works for you. I use lots of sponge/media stuff and BCB in my HOB and canister filters and at this point I`m happy how my tanks look, would I change things not at this time. I have enjoyed reading everybody's comments on this. 🙃