A question about cycling for the scientific-y types out there

[Ken Burke]

Does anyone have any data on the time to cycle a new tank relative to water temps?  
 

since I’m setting up a tank to accommodate discus, I was wondering if warmer temps encourage bb population growth.  I would hate to set the tank up at 82 degrees only to find out it inhibited vs encouraged ….

[Brian]

No I don’t.   But, my thinking is if it grows better at different temperatures- maybe different types/kinds or strains go at different temperatures.  So, I want mine to grow/reproduce at my Discus temperature.   Young discus?  I would go 84-86.  I kept mine 86-87 until the fish hit that 4 1/2. inches.  But with high temperatures come lots of feedings….

Good luck 

[Ken Burke]

@BrianSince I don’t actually have discus, I’m running it at 82.  I reused 2 medium sponge filters and the plants/gravel from the old 20 gal tank when I set up my 75.  I was planning on using the hob as well, but it did not fit.  I installed a new can filter today, seeded with some media from another tank.  
 

I want to get it really broken in b4 adding a couple angels.  Gonna take a second to save up for the discus.

[OnlyGenusCaps]

So, I heard a talk by Dr. Tim (of the eponymous products for aquariums), who has a wealth of data on cycling BB under differing conditions in aquaria.  I recall a great deal about the differences in pH and salinity, but either I am not recalling much about temperature, or he said little about it.  Checking his site for information might be worth your time. 

As a more general rule, bacteria are thermally little more than the responses of their enzymatic reactions (I'm not throwing shade at bacteria here - they have the most amazing enzymatic reactions!).  What this is likely to mean for cycling a tank is that warmer water should result in more rapid cycling, to a point.  In general, the kinetics of enzyme reactions follow a basic curve where increasing temperature increases activity, up to a threshold, after which the activity drops off rather sharply. 

I suspect you are not in the later danger zone with your temperatures, and therefore should expect a faster cycle.  That would be my take constructed from general assumptions about bacterial biology.  Mind you, I have no specific data I am drawing upon or pointing to here.  Still, I hope this might help a bit.

Edited June 9, 2022 by OnlyGenusCaps
typing too fast causes erroors

[Odd Duck]

On 6/6/2022 at 9:53 PM, Ken Burke said:

@BrianSince I don’t actually have discus, I’m running it at 82.  I reused 2 medium sponge filters and the plants/gravel from the old 20 gal tank when I set up my 75.  I was planning on using the hob as well, but it did not fit.  I installed a new can filter today, seeded with some media from another tank.  
 

I want to get it really broken in b4 adding a couple angels.  Gonna take a second to save up for the discus.

I have zero input to add relative to your original question, but I would recommend that when you are ready to add discus, that you start working your temp up gradually so any strains of bacteria that don’t do as well at a higher temp will fade gradually.  Plus any strains of bacteria you need at the higher temp have time to develop.

I “grew up” as a fish keeper back when we thought it was only a couple species of bacteria doing all the hard work for us in biofiltration.  We now know that there are many different species and likely different strains within those species.  We used to think it was the same species of bacteria in salt vs fresh and the knowledge base on that theory has changed a lot since way back in the day.

We also realize now that we probably don’t know all the species that get involved in the process.  So if we don’t even know all the species, we can’t possibly know all their temp requirements.  We do know that some bacteria take longer to populate, so allow your biofiltration to adapt gradually.  Most bacteria have a wide temp range that still works.  Just play it safe and allow lots of time to adapt.

[Ken Burke]

On 6/9/2022 at 6:59 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

So, I heard a talk by Dr. Tim (of the eponymous products for aquariums), who has a wealth of data on cycling BB under differing conditions in aquaria.  I recall a great deal about the differences in pH and salinity, but either I am not recalling much about temperature, or he said little about it.  Checking his site for information might be worth your time. 

As a more general rule, bacteria are thermally little more than the responses of their enzymatic reactions (I'm not throwing shade at bacteria here - they have the most amazing enzymatic reactions!).  What this is likely to mean for cycling a tank is that warmer water should result in more rapid cycling, to a point.  In general, the kinetics of enzyme reactions follow a basic curve where increasing temperature increases activity, up to a threshold, after which the activity drops off rather sharply. 

I suspect you are not in the later danger zone with your temperatures, and therefore should expect a faster cycle.  That would be my take constructed from general assumptions about bacterial biology.  Mind you, I have no specific data I am drawing upon or pointing to here.  Still, I hope this might help a bit.

This is the kind of input I was curious about.  The apex appears to come in around 100 Fahrenheit. 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

Okay, so I failed a little bit there it seems.  My apologies. 

That curve is not specific to BB.  It is a generic curve, likely developed for something like E. coli that lives in the human body often.  I honestly don't know if the curve has a lower temperature peak for BB or bacterial species that live freely in the environment.  Maybe @Biotope Biologist or @modified lung have insights on that.  Any idea about peak offsets by temperature, guys? 

This is sort of where any input I can offer ends.  Those two are way, way more likely than I to have specific knowledge related to this.

[modified lung]

Temperature is the major factor that determines which species of nitrifiers is present and the major species changes with about every 5.5°F change in temperature. Nitrifying archaea don't like even 2°F changes in temp. Archaea are usually the dominant nitrifiers on substrate and sponge filters.

So if you're reusing a filter from another tank, if the temperature is different enough, your cycle might stall for a time or even restart. I 've even seen the cycle take longer to reestablish after a sudden temp change, like 8-10°F, than if it had started from nothing.

But then if your tanks are used to fluctuating temperatures all the time and have enough extra surface area, you'll have a very diverse population of nitrifiers and your cycle may not be affected.

Nitrifiers do reproduce and metabolize faster at higher temps (as long as they stay at those temps). For thresholds, most nitrite-oxidizers start to slow down a little at about 86°F and slow down a lot at around 95°F. Most ammonia-oxidizers can handle a little higher temps though. The kill temp for both is usually around 104°F.

Odd Duck already gave the perfect advice.

 

 

[Ken Burke]

So based on I put from @OnlyGenusCaps, @modified lung, et Al, best strategy is to set the temp where u want it and keep it there.  If you need to change it, do so slowly.  Thanks every one

[Torrey]

On 6/9/2022 at 4:16 PM, Ken Burke said:

So based on I put from @OnlyGenusCaps, @modified lung, et Al, best strategy is to set the temp where u want it and keep it there.  If you need to change it, do so slowly.  Thanks every one

And I have one last piece to add, that comes from work in the field: the bacteria require even more oxygen than our fish. Warmer temperatures will frequently see slower development of bacteria, because the bacteria are not getting enough oxygen. 

Otherwise, Odd Duck, Modified Lung, and Only Genus Caps already covered everything else better than I could. 

[Ken Burke]

On 6/9/2022 at 5:32 PM, Torrey said:

And I have one last piece to add, that comes from work in the field: the bacteria require even more oxygen than our fish. Warmer temperatures will frequently see slower development of bacteria, because the bacteria are not getting enough oxygen. 

Otherwise, Odd Duck, Modified Lung, and Only Genus Caps already covered everything else better than I could. 

Another great argument for the  “go slow” approach.  I’m still dialing in my water temp, getting the plant settled in, etc.  in the meanwhile, two sponge filters and a usb nano driving an air stone 

[Torrey]

Speaking of the importance of oxygen....

 

[Ken Burke]

@Torrey  wow.  Wow.  Good argument for keeping an air stone in ur summer tub