Quarantine trio question.

[Pepere]

Good morning everyone.

I am new to the forum and started by introducing myself  on intro page.

I am reentering the hobby after a lapse of about 15 years.  By golly the internet makes learning how to do things easier.  Thank you Aquarium Co Op for all of the videos and for this forum.

I set up a 29 gallon display tank and two 10 gallon quarantine tanks to stage stocking of the display tank.

All three tanks were cycled with fishless cycling and Dr Tims One and Only and waited until they would metabolize 2ppm of ammonia chloride to nitrate in 12 hours. 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrite.

 

My lower 10 gallon treatment quarantine tank was barebottom with silk plants, a Dual Glass Mounted Sponge Filter with Bio Media rated for 40 gallons and a Lee triple flow filter filled with ceramic media and an airstone for extra biofiltration and oxygenation.  I also had good coverage of water lettuce on the top of the tank which would keep up nicely with nitrate production when I was cycling the tank.

Saturday I bought 6 small green neons, 3 Kuhli Loaches, 1 Blue Dwarf Gourami and 5 Emerald Green Chorydoras.

All were drip acclimated and settled in nicely over 4 hours and then once calm, I treated the tank with the Quarantine Trio Cory reccomends, Ichx, Maracin and Paracleanse.

I have done daily water tests and saw .25 ammonia, 0 nitrates yesterday morning and 1 ppm Ammonia, 0 nitrates this morning.

Worried about a lost biofilter, I transferred the fish to my other 10 gallon quarantine tank that has thick gravel substrate, significant planting, an Aqueon 20 hob filter with coarse foam prefilter and another Lee triple filter with ceramic media and water lettuce on top?

i had planned on changing water on Saturday and then retreating them again in 3 weeks with the Paracleanse at least to  resolve any hatched eggs.

The fish had their initial marinade in quarantine trio cut short by about three days.  Should this be problematic?
 

Any suggestions how I should proceed?

The fish are happily exploring the new tank and are in no signs of distress.

Any thoughts on why Ammonia might have risen?  Too much bioload? Antibiotic affecting biofilter where I didnt have substrate?

Water Parameters adjusted to temp 78, GH 6 degrees, Kh 6 degrees, PH 7.4, ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate cycled between 40 down to 15.  I dose with Simple Green in planted tanks to 40 and wait until it drops to 15 before re dosing.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I'm going to guess it may have been bioload. I can also say I've heard sniffs that maracyn can kill off beneficial bacteria in very young tanks if that applies to yours. I think your cycle just wobbled and wasn't able to keep up with the fish. 

Personally, I don't medicate fish unless they show signs of illness in quarantine- but that's just me. Aquarium Co-ops method is tried and true for those who use it. I would have done as you did and moved the fish (or did a big water change and tested water again if I didn't have another option). If you feel comfortable and the fish aren't showing signs of illness- I would skip further medication. If otherwise I'd redose and see what happens. 

There of course may be experienced opinions (for those who use the trio) incoming shortly here 🙂 

[Pepere]

Well, I had waited hoping for more input.  Thank you for your comments xXinked.

I had left tank alone after transferring fish.

i retested quarantine tank this morning. Yesterday at transfer, at noon ammonia was at  1 ppm.   19 hours later it is subjectively between 0.25 and0.5 on API color chart.  Nitrite at 0, nitrate 5 ppm. Lights were left on and floating water lettuce on tank.  
 

keeping an eye on it a few more days before draining and refilling and dosing with ammonia chloride to evaluate strength of biofiltration.

 

at this point I am unsure if the biofilter is converting the ammonia or if it is just the water lettuce consuming it.

 

before placing fish in the tank I had the double sponge filter with media suitable for for gallons, and the box filter filled with ceramic media asthe biofiltration running, and 2 ppm would be converted to nitrates in a little over 12 hours.  The plan is for the double sponge media to normally reside in display tank so as to be ready to go any time I need a quarantine tank, and also add in the box filter with media that is stored in a bag in display tank between uses.

 

the second tankI transferred fish into has 0 ammonia 0 nitrite this morning.  I redosed the tank with Paracleanse only after transferring in order to continue the parasite cleansing.  I am a little gun shy about adding the maricin and ichyx as I dont have a convenient back up except for daily big water changes.  Observing fish closely under magnification and lighting and see no evidence of visible indicators of ich or bacterial diseases and watching their behavior closely.  
 

the corys are rustling around in substrate and over driftwood and foam prefilter, the Neons vary between light schooling and independent exploration, the Kuhli loaches alter between frenetic swimming around and lackadaisical lounging together under the box filter or driftwood, and also scavenging the substrate. The dwarf gourami is hunting among the stem plants and water lettuce roots.  Everybody is swimming as the should be, no shimmies or wobbles except for when in discarge area of filter due to flow…

 

 

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 6/1/2022 at 9:29 AM, Pepere said:

Good morning everyone.

I am new to the forum and started by introducing myself  on intro page.

I am reentering the hobby after a lapse of about 15 years.  By golly the internet makes learning how to do things easier.  Thank you Aquarium Co Op for all of the videos and for this forum.

I set up a 29 gallon display tank and two 10 gallon quarantine tanks to stage stocking of the display tank.

All three tanks were cycled with fishless cycling and Dr Tims One and Only and waited until they would metabolize 2ppm of ammonia chloride to nitrate in 12 hours. 0 ammonia, 0 Nitrite.

 

My lower 10 gallon treatment quarantine tank was barebottom with silk plants, a Dual Glass Mounted Sponge Filter with Bio Media rated for 40 gallons and a Lee triple flow filter filled with ceramic media and an airstone for extra biofiltration and oxygenation.  I also had good coverage of water lettuce on the top of the tank which would keep up nicely with nitrate production when I was cycling the tank.

Saturday I bought 6 small green neons, 3 Kuhli Loaches, 1 Blue Dwarf Gourami and 5 Emerald Green Chorydoras.

All were drip acclimated and settled in nicely over 4 hours and then once calm, I treated the tank with the Quarantine Trio Cory reccomends, Ichx, Maracin and Paracleanse.

I have done daily water tests and saw .25 ammonia, 0 nitrates yesterday morning and 1 ppm Ammonia, 0 nitrates this morning.

Worried about a lost biofilter, I transferred the fish to my other 10 gallon quarantine tank that has thick gravel substrate, significant planting, an Aqueon 20 hob filter with coarse foam prefilter and another Lee triple filter with ceramic media and water lettuce on top?

i had planned on changing water on Saturday and then retreating them again in 3 weeks with the Paracleanse at least to  resolve any hatched eggs.

The fish had their initial marinade in quarantine trio cut short by about three days.  Should this be problematic?
 

Any suggestions how I should proceed?

The fish are happily exploring the new tank and are in no signs of distress.

Any thoughts on why Ammonia might have risen?  Too much bioload? Antibiotic affecting biofilter where I didnt have substrate?

Water Parameters adjusted to temp 78, GH 6 degrees, Kh 6 degrees, PH 7.4, ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate cycled between 40 down to 15.  I dose with Simple Green in planted tanks to 40 and wait until it drops to 15 before re dosing.

Fritz meds are great. My thought on why Ammonia might have risen is the med was working well. For my tanks, I normally loose most of the bacteria with maracyn use and get the cloudy water and particles in the water column. I take that as a good sign it is crushing the bad bacteria as well though. To avoid ammonia burn I dose Fritz A.C.C.R. instant ammonia remover / Water Conditioner powder to keep the ammonia safe for the fish and run an airstone pushing as much air as it can handle. It is noted on maracyn that ACCR can be used to keep the ammonia safe for fish.

I also keep zyme 7 around to boost the good bacteria after treatment. 

I observe and treat if needed post the initial trio run. In general I try to run the meds full strength at full duration when something bacterial or parasitic is seen. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by mountaintoppufferkeeper

[Pepere]

Thank you Mountaintoppufferkeeper.  Does the Maracin cmpletely eliminate the nitrifying bacteria? Or does it rebound quickly after the treatment is done?

I could keep a few sponge filters cycled in order to place intank after treatment was complete…

[quikv6]

Maracyn will deal a small blow to immature biofilters. In my experience, it will bounce back very soon. You can add some bacteria-in-a-bottle product to help, or use Prime to detoxify very small amounts of ammonia.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

I can only speak for my experiences up here but I think its more like it hits the good bacteria enough to cause that raise the ammonia in my fishroom. I am also 9,100 feet altitude. I have no idea if it is a factor but my altitude could potentially cause what would be a smaller blow to bacteria at lower altitudes to result in a bigger impact up here. 

In my set ups that ammonia spike is more of a first 24-36 hr concern. I use the ACCR for the ammonia just because it notes it as ok to combine with the Maracyn on the Maracyn label. For my tanks, I think it reduces the stress on the fish from the ammonia when I use it with the Marycyn. I have dosed Maracyn in tank with a mature sponge filter and some established bacteria on gravel without ACCR and had a significant increase in ammonia. I added ACCR it neutralized the ammonia  and I continued the treatment and had no fish deaths. I normally dose a little of the live bacteria at 24 hours or so and everyone does great. 

[Pepere]

Thank you.  I guess I will place an order for some along with more bacteria.

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/1/2022 at 8:29 AM, Pepere said:

Saturday I bought 6 small green neons, 3 Kuhli Loaches, 1 Blue Dwarf Gourami and 5 Emerald Green Chorydoras.

All were drip acclimated and settled in nicely over 4 hours and then once calm, I treated the tank with the Quarantine Trio Cory reccomends, Ichx, Maracin and Paracleanse.

I don't think it had anything to do with the meds. I think that's just a good bit of load for the tank to start to consume.  Depending on how much food there is in general, it just took (or will take) a little bit of time for things to progress.  Usually, you'd want to run the tank for 3-5 weeks before adding anything and that's with the tank absorbing nitrites/ammonia the entire time.

 The second stage of the nitrogen cycle takes a lot longer to get a hold in the filter media.

[quikv6]

Erythromycin can certainly impact an immature biofilter, and when combined with a stocking increase, it is common to see a small bump in ammonia. The second stage of bacteria (nitrobacter, I believe??) does take longer to develop, but I have never seen a bump in the nitrites specifically from Erythromycin. Just my .02

[Pepere]

Well, I transferred my fish to second quarantine tank as ammonia was 1 ppm Nitrites 0 on day 4 after adding the quarantine trio.  After transferring I redosed with Paracleanse to continue treatment for parasites.  No sign or indication of fungal or bacterual concerns.  I may redose them with Maracyn and ich x later on.

Before adding fish and meds, the tank would metabolize 2 ppm ammonia to nitrates with no ammonia or nitrates showing in 12 hours.

Some suggested the biofilter wobbled but would recover,or that I overloaded 10 gallon quarantine with fish.

After 2 days ammonia had not budged in 1st quarantine tank.  I drained the water, refilled it, and pulled ceramic media out of box filter, placed it in mesh bag submerged in tank and and replaced it with activated carbon and let it run in new water for 48 hours.

Next day I remeasured parameters ph 7.6, A0, nitrites 0 nitrates 0. I dumped the carbon and replaced the ceramic media in the box filter.   I dosed the tank to 2 ppm ammonia.   

I then did a 30% water change to quarantine tank 2 and pulled ceramic media out of box filter, put in mesh bag submerged in tank, and filled box filter with activated carbon and let it run..  from day4, through day 10, 2nd quarantine tank has been daily 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites.   

I would think this rules out overstocking being a concern

24 hours later Tank 1 still 2 ppm Ammonia, 0 nitrites.  I pulled box filter and added30 mlDr Tims one and only and let it set in tank for 5 minutes before turning the pump back on.
 

it took 24 hours before I saw any nitrites, and for ammonia to budge.

At this point I am convinced the nitrifying bacteria were wiped out in my quarantine tank by use of the three medications.  As such, I will be dosing future batches of fish in a plastic tub with an airstone, a cycled sponge filter, and a heater, but not in the barebottom quarantine tank with two cycled filters.

 

I will test the water twice a day and add fritz complete daily todeal with ammonia and nitrite and conduct water change and redose the tank as needed.  Then I will transfer to barebottom cycled tank after 7 days.

in the 6 days since transferring to second 10 gallon quarantine tank cycled at same time as the other one there has not been a hint of ammonia or nitrite.

i am very happy I was testing tank parameters twice a day and caught it early.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 6/7/2022 at 4:30 AM, Pepere said:

 As such, I will be dosing future batches of fish in a plastic tub with an airstone, a cycled sponge filter, and a heater, but not in the barebottom quarantine tank with two cycled filters.

Are you sure you can’t quarantine in the 10 gallon?  I’m using a clear tote now, only because my 10 gallon leaked, and the one thing I don’t like about it is that I can’t see any details of the fish through the tote. If they have any symptoms, I have no way to tell.

I’m thinking the ammonia was partially caused by bioload and partially by meds. With fishless cycling additives/bacteria, I have read that they “kind of” get a filter ready, but for a small bioload. As the bioload increases, problems start to occur because while there is some bacteria on the filter, there is not enough.

[Pepere]

I only plan on keeping them in tote for first week with meds.  Then transferring to 10 gallon tank for remaining 5 weeks.

[Pepere]

I have to say I find the theory that there was too much bioload that overwhelmed the biofilter or that the meds only depressed the biofilter not terribly compelling.

The second tank is the same size and had similar cycling and filters though  I will admit the gravel and extra plants help…. The second tank has handled the bioload with no problems.

The first tanks biofilter never recovered… not even a hint of recovery.  I am now pretty much starting from scratch re establishing a bacteria colony.

 

 

I ordered some zeolite this morning I will use in a box filter to help with ammonia during next med quarantine.

[ejt]

On 6/7/2022 at 5:05 AM, Pepere said:

The first tanks biofilter never recovered… not even a hint of recovery.  I am now pretty much starting from scratch re establishing a bacteria colony.

Oh gosh.. this is kind of terrifying!  I lost my entire tank to some sort of infection from a Petco fish and lack of quarantine (I know, I know... I don't know what I was thinking) approx 6 weeks ago and have just now gotten my tank to cycle again after the purge, clean and restart.  

I bought a 3" Oranda from goldfishisland.com and paid more than I ever have before for a fish (but I love her and she's doing amazing!)... and put her in the tank yesterday afternoon, alone.  Have a separate QT tank ready for a second fish arriving next week and am seeding the filter media in the main tank right now.  Dosed the aquarium trio last night as a paranoid preventative and had no clue the Maracyn could be so devastating to a young bacteria colony.  I knew it could have an impact, but your experience of a complete wipe out is so scary.  I haven't fed her yet (she hasn't been in 24hrs) but hadn't really planned on waiting the full 5 days cause I'm a softy and want to spoil her since she had been fasted before shipping.  I have some new fresh food arriving today but maybe I'll hold off another 24hrs.

I've just tested again and am seeing 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites but added a full dose of Fritz Turbo bacteria from a fresh bottle just in case.  Good lord I hope I didn't kill everything and put my new expensive fish in jeopardy.  Maybe next time I'll just go with prazipro in my next QT with the new fish on its way.

I'd be interested to see how long it takes you to get your 10g up and running again.

 

[Pepere]

I plan on still doing full quarantine trio in future.  I just plan to have cycled filters to put in the tNk once the week is up and the water change has been done and 48 hours pass with box filters running full of activated carbon.

I will put in 1 cycled sponge filter at the beginning of treatment, and have a box filter ready to go in filled with zeolite at first sign of ammonia levels rising.

[Pepere]

I plan on testing morning and night.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Pepere

[ejt]

For what it's worth to anyone finding this post later, my biofilter didn't suffer from using the med trio.  If it did, it was immeasurable and I didn't notice it.  Fish still doing great and a second one in a QT still kicking despite arriving to me in rough shape.

Edited June 20, 2022 by ejt

[Pepere]

Glad to hear it.

I would be thrilled if mine is not affected the next time I treat in about a month.

 

I think it would be prudent though for people to at least test for Ammonia and nitrites frequently during and after treatment.