Is it possible that Seachem Flourish had a negative impact in my aquarium?

[MitchStavely]

I have a 75 gal with Angels, Blue Rams, corys, bristlenose, several schools of tetras and plants. I decided to add seachem flourish freshwater plant supplement (tabs) under my plants. Sadly, I experienced some fish deaths after I made these additions and used this product.  All my of my corys and some tetras have died. I'm very upset that this happened, and am wondering if there may be a correlation between my actions and these losses. I am going to order some ferts from aquarium co-op, but haven't yet. I'm trying to get this stuff out of my tank, which includes multiple water changes. Any knowledge or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  

[JessLynne7]

On 5/26/2022 at 2:46 AM, MitchStavely said:

 

I know using easy green and ferts is a very popular opinion and most people use it.

im about 2 month I’m with plants with no ferts and so far so good.

I am using low light slow growing plants and am not in a hurry to have huge plant growth.

I can’t speak on how sustainable it will be for future but so far so good

[JoeQ]

Any water parameters? Are you using extra conditioner considering what time of year it is? It seams hasty to call out a specific item that should not be releasing nutrients into the water colum if used properly. 

[JessLynne7]

On 5/26/2022 at 7:06 AM, JoeQ said:

Any water parameters? Are you using extra conditioner considering what time of year it is? It seams hasty to call out a specific item that should not be releasing nutrients into the water colum if used properly. 

Joe does have a very good point.

have you tested the water just to be safe some other hidden problem are not occurring 

[MitchStavely]

My water parameters are zero ammonia and zero nitrites and very low nitrates. I've been using API root tabs with no problem and decided to switch to flourish to give it a try and it immediately started causing this issue. I should have been more careful about switching ferts, so lessons learned. I quarried and found a lot of people have had this issue using this product. Now, i'm only worried about keeping the remaining fish i have. 

[JoeQ]

On 5/26/2022 at 8:14 AM, MitchStavely said:

My water parameters are zero ammonia and zero nitrites and very low nitrates. I've been using API root tabs with no problem and decided to switch to flourish to give it a try and it immediately started causing this issue. I should have been more careful about switching ferts, so lessons learned. I quarried and found a lot of people have had this issue using this product. Now, i'm only worried about keeping the remaining fish i have. 

The problem this time of year is increased choline in your source water from towns flushing out their water pipes. A lot of times this causes people who aren't using extra conditioner as a preventive (a long with a post water change test for chlorine) to have mass unexplained fish loss or blame other products. 

[gardenman]

Flourish has been around a long time and doesn't typically cause issues. I would suspect a coincidental issue causing the trouble. Chlorine or Chloramine would be most likely given the parameters you cite. Even well water can change drastically from season to season. Ammonia is the big fish killer along with Nitrites. When they're both at zero, something else is going on. When you disturb gravel by doing things like inserting root tabs, there's also the chance for a release of trapped hydrogen sulfide gas that can harm/kill the fish. I would look towards hydrogen sulfide being an issue since the issue arose with gravel disturbance.

[JessLynne7]

I am glad to hear your water is ok. That’s good news.

do you happen to have any test strips that test chlorine.? If so maybe test the tap water and tank and see if you have an unexpected rise as others have suggested.

The hydrogen sulfide gas issue. This is my understanding and others may disagree. You would have to leave your substrate undisturbed for a period of time to build up the gas. 

in my opinion you said you were using api root tabs so that means you have been moving the gravel around for that previously. so I will assume that this isn’t the first time you have disturbed your gravel!? Unless you were out of api tabs for a really long time and didn’t move or touch gravel for some time.

 

Now those are assumptions based off of what you said.

also do you gravel vacuum regularly?

 

Also one other issue I have seen is complaints on Amazon a fake products. Now I have no proof but I read reviews and have read reviews that customers received fake products. Again all speculation on my part. 
 

I would do a 50 percent water change if you think the fish can handle it and if not do 25. 
I would also check the Chlorine  if you’re able to see if extra water conditioner is needed. Some water conditioners depending on what you use deplete oxygen so I would not add extra unless you absolutely need to.

Also look for any signs anything is off. Look for signs of parasites or illness or anything else that could possibly cause problems that you can try to mitigate.

I am no expert but if I where in your shoes that’s what I would do.

Good luck

Edited May 26, 2022 by JessLynne7

[MitchStavely]

Thank you for the advice. I regularly check my parameters and have zero chlorine or chloramine, due to treating the water before entering the tank using complete, prime, ect...  Most of my nitrates were absorbed by the plants and also some water changes. The only conclusion, I can come to at this point is seachem flourish has a lot of iron and my water here in Florida is fairly hard water, due to the lime. I lost a total of 4 grown cory doras, 4 neon tetras, 3 Dalmatian molly's. My Angels, 4 Dalmatians, 2 large bristlenoses, German Rams, and more tetras seem to have survived after (3) 50% water changes in two days. I'm going back to the API root tabs and will research Aquarium co-op fertilizers, which get high reviews.

I just can't chance Seachem Flourish anymore, which seem to work for a lot of people. However, I found quit a few people who experienced the same issue with their fish dying after using Seachem Flourish tabs. There is not enough of a buffer for error to give this product any further consideration. My fingers are crossed that I don't lose anymore fish. I feel I may be passed this, hopefully! again, thanks!      

Edited May 26, 2022 by MitchStavely

[Zenzo]

On 5/26/2022 at 2:46 AM, MitchStavely said:

I have a 75 gal with Angels, Blue Rams, cory's, bristlenose, several schools of treta's and plants and for some unknown reason I decided to add seachem flourish freshwater plant supplement (tabs) under my plants and to my surprise it's killing my fish. All my cory's and some tetras have died. I'm super pissed off why this happened. I am going to order some ferts from aquarium co-op, but haven't yet. I'm trying to get this stuff out of my tank, which includes multiple water changes. any knowledge or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  

@MitchStavely We have to be very careful when we make a claim that "x" product had a harmful effect in our aquarium. There are too many other variables and possibilities to pinpoint it to what you added. I am editing you original post to reflect such.

Thank you!

[MitchStavely]

On 5/26/2022 at 8:28 PM, Zenzo said:

@MitchStavely We have to be very careful when we make a claim that "x" product had a harmful effect in our aquarium. There are too many other variables and possibilities to pinpoint it to what you added. I am editing you original post to reflect such.

Thank you!

 

On 5/26/2022 at 8:36 PM, MitchStavely said:

 

understandable and thanks!

[Torrey]

@MitchStavely I have liquid rock (300+ GH, with a TDS out of the tap over 300) and have been keeping tanks in our liquid rock for a few decades. I knew how to work with the water that came out of the tap in the 90's, left for a while, came back, and discovered the chemistry of the tap water had completely changed while I was gone. Learned new parameters and how to adjust... did well for the last decade, and started having problems in established tanks back in November.

Nothing in our water report indicated a change in treatment, GH still over 300 ppm, TDS out of the tap still over 300, nitrates out of the tap still variable between 0 ppm and 40 ppm depending on time of day... but KH plummeted from 80 - 120 ppm out of the tap to not detectable. So I had some pH swings, even with my high GH. Two tanks dropped to 6.2 pH from my normal 7.8 pH. Water comes out of the tap between 8.2 pH and 7.8 pH... but after I tap water that had been aerated for 24 hours, it also dropped to 6.4 pH.

At lower pH, ammonia and nitrites aren't as toxic at higher pH. Also, pH changes throughout the day... but shouldn't be changing by 2 full points, the fish (and plants) don't do well in that kind of stress.

I use SeaChem Flourish, because (until recently) I had a high pH which was causing my plants to develop an iron deficiency, because plants can't absorb most of the iron available in the majority of fertilizers (exceptions being the SeaChem Flourish, and I believe the ACO EasyGreen Iron). If I have the initials correct, DTPA chelated iron is better absorbed above a pH of 6.8. 

I have had issues with ammonia spikes when fish (or Malaysian trumpet snails 🙄) have dug up Flourish tabs... just like I have had an ammonia spike when other tabs have been dug up... or once I forgot to poke a hole in a gel capsule and it wriggled itself free and floated ::facepalm::

You also said you don't have any chlorines or chloramines because you pretreat the water. Are you testing the amount of chlorine / chloramine before you treat the water? Because I use 2 drops/gallon of Prime to dechlorinate my water, most of the time. After the city works on burst pipes, it takes 8 drops/gallon to dechlorinate, because they flush the pipes with a much higher level of chloramines to kill any bacteria that entered the pipes due to the breach. I have had two bacterial issues in my tanks that I suspect were due to a contaminated water supply. The majority of the country didn't replace the pipes in our water infrastructure as the corps of engineers recommended, so a lot of municipalities are having issues with breaks in pipes. Any chance this could have happened in your area?

I have a very good friend who lives in Michigan, who noticed issues in her tanks before water quality issues ever made the news. Obviously, your water is not an issue now, because you said several water changes have fixed the problem. My point is there are a lot of variables, some can be temporary parameter changes (like my ever fluctuating tap water), some can be due to user error (my floating gel cap), and some can be due to not having (easy) access to needed tests, or necessary knowledge.

 

Here's the link I think Seattle_Aquarist shared with me to help me understand the complex interplay in various nutrients for plants.

As a former health care worker, I know calcium inhibits iron absorption in humans, while vitamin C increases absorption. I didn't take any veterinary classes, so I can't speak on iron toxicity in fish. I can say I grew up in a house that had red rings in the bathtub from the amount of dissolved iron in the pipes, and we never lost any fish.

 

 

Unless we have a device to test pH, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, and oxygen saturation levels 24/7 (as well as chlorine and chloramine levels to precisely dose our water), we can't definitively say "x didn't happen".    It's impossible to prove a negative🤷🏼‍♂️ I can say I personally haven't had problems with Flourish (liquid or tabs) with my fish... my shrimp and snails? They are much happier when I microdose and divide the liquid ferts into a daily dose routine. My plants give me more consistent growth, too.

Due to my insanely high amounts of dissolved calcium  in my water, I alternate between the Co-op Easy Green and Flourish. Once I switched from dosing once a week to (the same amount, but divided into 7 doses) to daily, my snails stopped moving to the top of the tank after I added ferts.

[MitchStavely]

I appreciate the outstanding advice. I definitely understand how pH swings can upset the balance of water. I worked at an industrial water treatment plant for the Government cleaning and processing industrial wastewater to strip aircraft, long before retiring as an IT system admin for Government applications. We kept our water @ 6.8 - 7.2 pH. I remember there were times the aircraft lines would have to use city water, because the treatment plant was down for various reason and they would complain the stripper of all things, didn't work as good or took longer to work, so with that said, yes, it's very important for the makeup chemistry in water and I should be checking this more thoroughly. I will obtain a TDS meter along with a pH meter, instead of strips. With TDS however only an RO can take that down, which shouldn't be a problem for the water treatment plants, but I do understand the problems they can encounter. I will take your advice and run with it to update mine with what is going on with our water. I, also, will take some sample to a friend still working at the Gov lab to get a breakdown of the water. Nonetheless, thanks for the knowledge and it will be used. I need to know exactually what happened. I should have known better to jump to such drastic conclusion of what happened.