I need ideas for a tricky planting location

[Odd Duck]

My idea of gluing Brazilian microsword to the base of the wood and slate in the 100 G angelfish tank did not work on the first try and now I can’t seem to find more anywhere except in the tissue cup and that didn’t work at all.  I do have some narrow leaf sagittaria (Sagittaria subulata) that I can use in that spot that I think will look great there if I can just figure out how attach it and get it to grow.  There isn’t a “cup” shape to the wood that will hold growing media/substrate where I want this primarily root feeder to grow.  I want it there to further the illusion that the left end of the tank is the edge of a washed out stream bank exposing the tree “roots”.

Yes, I’m a stubborn old coot determined to carry out my vision but not having any really great ideas.  🤔 

So I need help with some ideas on how to hold some growing media in place for the roots to grab hold for this non-rhizomatous plant.  I have standard black plastic planting baskets from aquatic plants and I’m sure I could come up with some rock wool, but I’d rather not have the plastic and rock wool in the tank. I have tiny terra cotta pots but one would be very noticeable there, plus I’d like the plant to be able to spread over the wood somewhat.

I’m concerned that if I just try to glue it in place like I tried with the microsword, it will just die, or come loose and drift around eventually, no matter what I do, if I don’t have some sort of growing media there to entice the roots to cling.  I might be able to stuff it in some cracks, but again, I think it might “grow loose” eventually since there isn’t a durable rhizome to glue down.

What say you, think tank, any thoughts on ways to approach this beyond stuffing it in some cracks, then stuffing it back in, and stuffing it back in, and stuffing it back in, and . . . . . ?

 

Edit: Decided to add pictures of the location in question with, and before, the Brazilian microsword was put in place that quickly melted away.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Odd Duck

[eatyourpeas]

I have been having good results with ceramic bio-rings as weights, as well as making planters out of stringing them. They age and become pretty invisible, plus more for BB to feed on. They can be easily removed if the plants decide to vacate. Please excuse the pea puffer photo bomber...

[Odd Duck]

On 5/21/2022 at 4:41 PM, eatyourpeas said:

ceramic bio-rings as weights, as well as making planters out of stringing them

How are you doing this?  Do you mean attaching the plants to the rings somehow then gluing the rings to the wood?  There isn’t really a good flat spot to let rings sit in place without glue.  The microsword was glued in place for the week it lasted before melting.  Do you have any pictures of the plants attached to the rings?  I have rings I can use, just not sure how you mean for me to use them in this situation?

[eatyourpeas]

On 5/21/2022 at 3:17 PM, Odd Duck said:

Do you mean attaching the plants to the rings somehow then gluing the rings to the wood?

Yes. Thread the roots through the ring, then glue the ring to the wood.

[eatyourpeas]

Okay, this is not the plant in the tank because I can't get a good picture, and this bio ring is as loud as a marshmallow, but hopefully you get the idea... It is wedged in a little crevice-like space that exists in the wood. This allows the plant to send roots through the bottom and attached itself to the wood.

 

[Odd Duck]

On 5/21/2022 at 5:30 PM, eatyourpeas said:

Yes. Thread the roots through the ring, then glue the ring to the wood.

Got it, thank you and the pic is perfect.  I do have some aged rings, too, that would blend better than my new ones.

I’m going to let that percolate in my mind a bit.  See if anybody has other ideas.  I get impatient once the idea fits and take action to bring it about, but I’m typically a planner when it comes to things like this.  When my first idea didn’t work, my brain kicks into over-thinking mode so I have to let it churn a bit now.  Thanks for the idea!

[Griznatch]

 When my 55 was full of rocks, I used to take smaller ones and arrange them to make a natural pot and then add gravel and plants in that. Add some anubias or java moss at base of those rocks and it looks natural.  All my rocks were the same type so I'd end up with a terraced effect. You might be able to arrange something like that around the base of that wood?

[Torrey]

On 5/21/2022 at 2:52 PM, Odd Duck said:

My idea of gluing Brazilian microsword to the base of the wood and slate in the 100 G angelfish tank did not work on the first try and now I can’t seem to find more anywhere except in the tissue cup and that didn’t work at all.  I do have some narrow leaf sagittaria (Sagittaria subulata) that I can use in that spot that I think will look great there if I can just figure out how attach it and get it to grow.  There isn’t a “cup” shape to the wood that will hold growing media/substrate where I want this primarily root feeder to grow.  I want it there to further the illusion that the left end of the tank is the edge of a washed out stream bank exposing the tree “roots”.

Yes, I’m a stubborn old coot determined to carry out my vision but not having any really great ideas.  🤔 

So I need help with some ideas on how to hold some growing media in place for the roots to grab hold for this non-rhizomatous plant.  I have standard black plastic planting baskets from aquatic plants and I’m sure I could come up with some rock wool, but I’d rather not have the plastic and rock wool in the tank. I have tiny terra cotta pots but one would be very noticeable there, plus I’d like the plant to be able to spread over the wood somewhat.

I’m concerned that if I just try to glue it in place like I tried with the microsword, it will just die, or come loose and drift around eventually, no matter what I do, if I don’t have some sort of growing media there to entice the roots to cling.  I might be able to stuff it in some cracks, but again, I think it might “grow loose” eventually since there isn’t a durable rhizome to glue down.

What say you, think tank, any thoughts on ways to approach this beyond stuffing it in some cracks, then stuffing it back in, and stuffing it back in, and stuffing it back in, and . . . . . ?

 

Edit: Decided to add pictures of the location in question with, and before, the Brazilian microsword was put in place that quickly melted away.

I've been getting great results from using a zip tie to "wrap" the base of plants (even swords) and then gluing the zip tie in the place I want the plant. The roots grow down into the soil, or around the wood, or through the holes in the cholla.

I stopped having melt issues with my plants when I started treating *all* plants like rhizome plants and suspending them at least ½" above the substrate. 

Yeah, it sometimes looks odd to see the roots above the substrate. But that sounds like what you want. With the Amazon swords and Cyperus helferi, the new growth will cover a small zip tie in about 8 weeks. 

[Minanora]

You could also use some black sponge. Cut into small pieces. Cut slits into it, put the plants in, then glue to the wood.

[Fonske]

On 5/22/2022 at 4:52 AM, Odd Duck said:

So I need help with some ideas on how to hold some growing media in place for the roots to grab hold for this non-rhizomatous plant.

As previous poster mentioned, black sponge is an option. I use pieces of sponge as planters, and they work well for rhizome and non-rhizome plants (crypts and some carpeting plants). I never tried to attach the sponge to hardscape, but plant roots do anchor the sponge to the substrate after a while. The sponge also collects a lot of stuff for the roots to feed on. 

Another idea might be "substrate balls". Serpa Design in his video "Crazy Bonsai Waterfall Rock Mountain Terrarium" (~4:20 minutes) used them for the roots of bonsai tree on rocks. Similar idea is yarn balls like the one below, a bunch of soil tightly wrapped in yarn. Or just a black nylon sock filled with a bit of substrate (this one I had mixed success with, some plants did well, some not). 

(photo from the internet)

[Guppysnail]

For stuff like this I glue half a flat metal plant weight to the object then fold it in half clipping snug but not tight to hold things in place. The plants usually hide the weight. It worked great for swords on terra cotta pots. 

[Odd Duck]

On 5/21/2022 at 7:10 PM, Griznatch said:

 When my 55 was full of rocks, I used to take smaller ones and arrange them to make a natural pot and then add gravel and plants in that. Add some anubias or java moss at base of those rocks and it looks natural.  All my rocks were the same type so I'd end up with a terraced effect. You might be able to arrange something like that around the base of that wood?

When I say the “base” of the wood, it means where the wood is attached to the slate which is attached to the side of the tank at the top left side via magnets epoxied to the slate held by magnets outside the tank.  So the area in question is at the top left side.  Which is why it’s challenging me on how to get root feeder plants to grow there. 

[Odd Duck]

On 5/22/2022 at 10:05 AM, Minanora said:

You could also use some black sponge. Cut into small pieces. Cut slits into it, put the plants in, then glue to the wood.

I have black sponge and thought about doing this.  This keeps percolating through my brain and seems to be the best idea so far for giving the plants some kind of growing media.  I can even tuck a few granules of Osmocote into the sponge just like with rock wool grown plants.  I think I’d need to zip tie the plant/sponge to the wood, too.  The zip tie would eventually break, but hopefully the roots would be dug into wood by then.  I hope my Fissidens would eventually grow over the sponge, too.  I’d like that.

[Griznatch]

On 5/23/2022 at 9:10 AM, Odd Duck said:

When I say the “base” of the wood, it means where the wood is attached to the slate which is attached to the side of the tank at the top left side via magnets epoxied to the slate held by magnets outside the tank.  So the area in question is at the top left side.  Which is why it’s challenging me on how to get root feeder plants to grow there. 

LOL, that would make it tough, disregard everything I said 🙂

[Odd Duck]

On 5/23/2022 at 10:30 AM, Griznatch said:

LOL, that would make it tough, disregard everything I said 🙂

I’m just glad when anybody is reading and taking their time to reply to my posts.  I don’t often ask for help because I can usually puzzle through stuff pretty well, not to mention that I’m used to being the one giving advice.  It’s my job to solve animal related problems, after all.  😉 😆 

[Griznatch]

 The sponge trick might work. You might also be able to add a slow growing anubias or somethnig to the outside to help hide it?

[Odd Duck]

On 5/23/2022 at 10:47 AM, Griznatch said:

 The sponge trick might work. You might also be able to add a slow growing anubias or somethnig to the outside to help hide it?

I’m going for an angelfish habitat, trying to stay at least all South American on both fish and plants.  It’s not a true biotope, but at least somewhat habitat.  I’m cheating a bit with my Fissidens species since the one I’m using isn’t South American, but the Fissidens are all similar enough in appearance that it could be a South American species.  I’m also going to cheat and add Amano shrimp because I couldn’t find a species that’s known to be South American and also fully safe with any potential fry that may develop in this tank.  Besides, it’s a small, mostly clear shrimp with a few brown speckles.  Who’s to know it isn’t a South American species?  😉 

I know, I know, I’m soooo picky!  Most of my tanks are a very happy mix of many plants from all over, but I got the notion in my head to go for a biotope.  I soon realized it wouldn’t have much plant or fish variety based on what I could find for a strict angelfish biotope and opted to go for “habitat” instead so I could stretch the meaning for a wider range of plants and include the fish I really wanted, plus still have a well-balanced system.  🤷🏻‍♀️ 

The Fissidens should cover any sponge eventually, it does really like growing on sponge, so I’m definitely leaning that way.  I think I’ll try the sponge and see what it looks like.  I’m not sure how I’m going to get zip ties around the wood in that spot, but I can at least start with making the sponge look like a blob of soil instead of a block.  I guess I better get cutting, then picking and plucking at sponge to “naturalize” it.  Getting ready to make a mess! I’ll be vacuuming sponge bits for weeks.  🙄🤷🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

[Odd Duck]

I did a thing, thanks to encouragement and discussion here.  I can’t really show a finished product yet, since I’m still dealing with pea soup in the tank.  My UV filter wasn’t working, but the replacement bulb should get here today.  🤦🏻‍♀️ It is clearly slowly, anyway, but the UV filter actually working should clear it in a few days.

I decided to at least attempt this with black sponge chunks.  I had fine (40 ppi) 2” thick, matten style sponge left over from cutting some to fit 10 G tanks.  I cut pieces roughly to size, then thought I would shape it by plucking so it would look more natural.  Well, a couple “plucks” convinced me scissors were a better bet since it would have taken more strength and stamina than I had to get the job done by plucking and I have fairly strong hands (tough sponge).  So some trimming and shaping later, I had a couple pieces that were shaped roughly like dirt clods.  I cut 3 slits in one, 2 in the other.  I had what I’m nearly certain was some narrow leaf Sagittaria (Sagittaria subulata) that I picked up somewhere along the way.  I originally thought it was some sport variety of Echinodorus vesuvius with no twisting since I think that’s what it came with, but after doing all my reading on South American aquarium suitable plants, I’m pretty sure it’s the narrow leaf Sag, which should fit well with the look I’m trying to achieve in that location if it cooperates.

So I have my turd, I mean, “dirt clod” shaped sponges, I inserted plants into the slots, dropped in a few Osmocote granules into each slot, and literally just shoved them into place.  One is between the wood and the glass and one is wedged into a gap between 3 of the wood pieces I used to make the “root” tangle piece.  They’re staying in place so far.  I will post pics of what I have of the “clods” outside the tank, then once the water clears (why always in my display tanks? 🤷🏻‍♀️) and we can all see how it looks together.

While I’m talking about this tank, I just have to describe what happens with the angels in the tank - only 4 adults so far, my high coverage kois juvies should arrive today!.  I have the lights on for only 4 hours a day (pea soup) but I open the blinds over the window at the left/east end of the tank in the morning.  All 4 angels will swim toward that end, oriented normally.  After they get to that end, they re-orient so their tops are toward the sun coming in the window.  Apparently it is very confusing to the angelfish’s tiny brains to have light coming from the side.  So they orient via gravity when anywhere else in the tank, but with the tank lights out, when at that end, they orient by the direction of the light.  Bless, their hearts, but they’re pretty!

I am still.open to further ideas, just in case this doesn’t work.  I have not glued the sponges in place, but they seem to be wedged in reasonably securely.  The one against the glass is quite secure.  The one wedged between the wood pieces I’m less confident in: 1) how it will look, and 2) how securely it will stay.  Pea soup is preventing proper visualization, both pieces were placed by feel, but the one against the glass I can at least see from the end, but not from the standard viewing angle.  The wood wedged piece I can’t see at all except for the grassy leaves across the top of the water.

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Odd Duck
Add more pics

[Brandon p]

I have been have the same issue with my Val I use the black foam and poked some holes in it in the foam for the 3-4 runners and pushed the foam around the roots and over the foam and cover the foam with the substrate. . I saw it on one of Corys videos. It’s not exactly the same but it’s close you probably can track it down

Please let me know if it works well

[Patrick_G]

On 5/23/2022 at 8:07 AM, Guppysnail said:

For stuff like this I glue half a flat metal plant weight to the object then fold it in half clipping snug but not tight to hold things in place. The plants usually hide the weight. It worked great for swords on terra cotta pots. 

Haha I was about to post the same idea. It works. I'm not sure if it'll work in this case but it's a handy trick. 

[Odd Duck]

On 5/23/2022 at 10:07 AM, Guppysnail said:

For stuff like this I glue half a flat metal plant weight to the object then fold it in half clipping snug but not tight to hold things in place. The plants usually hide the weight. It worked great for swords on terra cotta pots. 

 

On 5/24/2022 at 4:02 PM, Patrick_G said:

Haha I was about to post the same idea. It works. I'm not sure if it'll work in this case but it's a handy trick. 

I did temporarily weight down a couple of the radicans swords I got that didn’t have much roots when they arrived.  They kept coming loose just from the little bit of current present and the buoyancy of their own leaves. 🙄  I have since removed the weights and they’re staying planted so far despite 14 cories, 3 super red bristlenoses, 5 gold mystery snails, and the 4 angels.  The hatchetfish never get down that low although this species (Thoracocharax stellatus AKA Spotfin Hatchetfish) swim through more of the water column than the marbles or silvers I’ve kept in the past that tend to stay very strictly top level.

I never thought to use weights as clips and glue the weights to something.  I’ll definitely keep this in mind as a possibility if the sponge blobs turn out to be a fail.