Maracyn 4 - me 1

[BF McUmber]

I am so frustrated, 4 times now Maracyn has ruined my cycle. Each previous I owned it chalking it up to inexperience as I have only been fishkeeping for a year. I was like, ok you must have messed something up, or the beneficial bacteria was not strong enough yet to take a treatment. The first time I lost my Hillstream loach and thought ok we need to do better. The next two I fed on day 3/4 and it caused a spike but I was able to water change through it. Then I had a fuzzy fish at my work tank. I used a full treatment of marcyn and it did not affect the tank, so confidently I thought I had figured it out. 

Last friday I was so happy I got a dozen CPD's that I have been waiting the better part of a year for. I got them home fed them over the weekend because they looked a little thin. Then this morning I thought, OK the QT tank is well established, lets do the med trio properly. I looked in the tank this evening and I had a CPD swimming vertically. I look around and other ones were having trouble as well. I test for ammonia and it is at 0.5ppm, but my fish are struggling. I changed water and in the process I saw that I have one dead already. It just sucks that I had been waiting for these fish, they are the most expensive I have purchased, and now I get to make the same "mistake" and get to watch them struggle to live. I've changed water twice and have put the Fritz Complete in. I can't think of anything else I should be doing but I'm just frustrated. Right now most of them are sitting on the substrate and at least one of them is doing a death flop as he is struggling. I am pretty sure I will be going with the med duo for now on unless I see something specific.   

[Cory]

What are the water parameters besides the ammonia? Do you have an airstone or sponge filter going? Often I find it's something outside of the meds causing these issues. In my experience 0.5ppm ammonia isn't enough to be causing the problems you're describing.

[nabokovfan87]

Are you also dosing salt with the meds?

[BF McUmber]

On 5/18/2022 at 1:45 AM, Cory said:

What are the water parameters besides the ammonia? Do you have an airstone or sponge filter going? Often I find it's something outside of the meds causing these issues. In my experience 0.5ppm ammonia isn't enough to be causing the problems you're describing.

All my research and "knowledge" makes me agree with you. It seems like it should not be an issue. However, some of the CPD's were breathing heavily at the surface of the water, some were just sitting on the bottom of the tank breathing quickly, 2-3 where falling on their side then would do a half hearted kick to right themselves very 10 seconds only to fall over again, then about 5 looked like they were acting fine. In the previous 4 days they did mainly stay behind the sponge filter in a group when the lights were on. When the lights were off they would zip around exploring the tank. When the lights turned on half of them would go to cover under the moss/sponge filter, and then the rest would chase each other around a bit. When I fed frozen baby brine they would tentatively come out of their spots to come eat. I lightly fed the day before adding the trio, and then did not feed yesterday. 
I had 3 amano shrimp in there as well, on monday I took 2 of them to work though. Then, last night I put the other one in a bucket so that he did not try to eat the half dead fish. 

For history on the tank, for possible other reasons, the tank in general has been set up since august 2021. In that time it has lost its cycle 4 times and always in correlation to when I added Maracyn, usually 1-3 days after or depending on when I added food after adding it. In its first iteration it had a small sponge filter and a bare bottom. It was cycled, but was only about a week or two old when I added fish. I got an ammonia spike and my hillstream loach died but my Blue neon Gobies made it. After this I added the terracottta pot, a large stone (which was just recently removed to breed guppies), and substrate. It used to have just a CFL light on a timer but I upgraded to a hygger light on a timer. It has always had live plants in there. After the first crash I added a box filter in addition to the sponge for additional sponge and to have a place to throw carbon if I needed it. I only added the carbon in once. In the 3rd go round is when I put  the nano sponge filter in, putting the other filtration in my second tank. This is also the time that I added the heater, previously it was unheated. I had bought guppies and based on the videos I was watching it suggested I put a heater in. The 300 watt was all I had so I put it in, it was keeping the temp stable so I did not have a real reason to change it out even thought I bought a 50 for it. I gravel vac the substrate weekly. When doing a water change I did dose with prime but now I have fritz complete. 
Previous to adding the CPD's I had a trio of guppies in the tank since Feburary 2022 and they were breeding in there. I did have 6 fry in the tank with them, I may have had more fry but the male may have eaten them. I was feeding them the same amount of frozen food I fed the CPD's on the days leading up to adding the trio. When getting the CPD's the guppies got moved to the second tank minutes before.  

I left my master test kit at work, so all I have at home are the test strips. Below are pictures of the results I just took.  I also took a test in my other two tanks just for comparison because I did such a heavy water change last night. The one next to the ammonia strip is the tank of interest. 
Currently it appears that I have 

Nitrate: 5ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
GH: >300ppm 
KH: 120ppm
PH: 8.2
Chlorine: 0ppm 
Temp: 74 degrees F. 
Aquarium does not currently smell of anything unique either. 

I have tested my water previously with the master test kit and had found it to be 
GH: 14 degrees
KH: 10 degrees
Calcium: 4 degrees
Copper: 0
PH: 8.2 
 

On 5/18/2022 at 5:51 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Are you also dosing salt with the meds?

I have only added salt when I thought I may have fin rot with the guppies. I have done at least (10) 33% water changes since then, so I would not imagine there is salt still there. 

This morning it looks like I have one dead at about 3 that are having trouble keeping themselves upright. Before I leave I will do a 33% water change and replace the 300 watt heater with the 50 just in case it happens to be a errant current thing. 

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by BF McUmber
additional information

[Colu]

It's worth adding an extra air stone even no you have a sponge filter what your describing with CPD could be low levels of desolved oxygen caused by the medication

[Guppysnail]

Here is great information on how extra oxygen boost fish and medication effectiveness.

 

[BF McUmber]

On 5/18/2022 at 8:27 AM, Colu said:

It's worth adding an extra air stone even no you have a sponge filter what your describing with CPD could be low levels of desolved oxygen caused by the medication

Thank you for the suggestion,  i can do that when I go home. With breathing issues, the oxygen content was definitely a thought I had.  I can accept that as the actual reason they are dying. That will also be hopeful that they will recover. 

What I can't get my head around is why I almost always get the ammonia or nitrite spikes. Does my water just only allow a weak strain of bacteria to thrive? 

On 5/18/2022 at 8:48 AM, Guppysnail said:

Here is great information on how extra oxygen boost fish and medication effectiveness.

 

Thank you, I will read it when I get home.  

[Guppysnail]

On 5/18/2022 at 9:00 AM, BF McUmber said:

Thank you for the suggestion,  i can do that when I go home. With breathing issues, the oxygen content was definitely a thought I had.  I can accept that as the actual reason they are dying. That will also be hopeful that they will recover. 

What I can't get my head around is why I almost always get the ammonia or nitrite spikes. Does my water just only allow a weak strain of bacteria to thrive? 

Thank you, I will read it when I get home.  

I have had to use it twice. Both times I got spikes. It is an antibiotic designed to kill bacteria.  Some folks that use it regularly may have built up antibiotic resistant strains of beneficial bacteria (totally guessing) but my beneficial bacteria get all but wiped out. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Colu]

On 5/18/2022 at 2:00 PM, BF McUmber said:

What I can't get my head around is why I almost always get the ammonia or nitrite spikes. Does my water just only allow a weak strain of bacteria to thrive? 

If you add maracyn to food in future your less likely to harm your benefial bacterial and it more effective also with your pH being 8.2 and CPD like a pH of 6.5-7.5 the source of your fish could have kept them in a lower pH and kH they could also be suffering from osmotic shock

Edited May 18, 2022 by Colu

[Cory]

So a couple of things I'd bring is as some points to think about. With fish that aren't new to you/you know the history. You can definitely take your time medicating. As in doing just the dewormer first, then doing ich X after etc.

Also one thing that gets glossed over a lot is, fish that are "fine" but then start dying with meds. The real life example of this would be, You could have been fine for the last 5 years. The doctors find you have cancer, the treatment of cancer can kill you. This happens with fish as well. Imagine something most people can't see, like gill flukes. Lets say this has been going on for 6 months to a year and there is gill damage. Not enough to notice labored breathing or anything. However then you add a med to the water and it changes how much oxygen is left in the water. If they were already compromised for oxygen exchange, making it harder can be the 1-2 punch. However if you never treat it, you'll just see that result 6 months down the road and the fish die off 1 by 1.

I think medicating/illness is the most difficult thing in the hobby because there are so many factors. Could the maracyn kill bacteria. It could, but in our experience it doesn't as I've used it with tanks for 15 years straight. But I also know that for the most part, all the beneficial bacteria I would have come into contact with in the last 15 years, would have seen maracyn before. I would wager most other people's would have as well, but there's always a chance it hadn't and gets hit by it. I doubt that all bacteria is killed by the maracyn but there could be some disruption.

But again, people forget that most of the oxygen requirement of the average aquarium comes from the bacteria. Not the fish. So if you put in meds that affect oxygen levels, the bacteria can die from lack of oxygen instead of the antibiotic. Which just makes things irritating to try and figure out.

If I had to guess what happened here, it is a combination of a few factors, with nothing concrete, lets say 10% bacteria died to the maracyn. Lets say 30% less oxygen from meds. Some gill damage from the past, whether it was gill flukes or ammonia at a wholesaler etc. Then factor in that meds themselves are stressful, and add in 0.5ppm ammonia on top of that. You get a recipe for stressful soup, that makes the fish not happy. The outcome is you can say, if you never treat the fish that wouldn't have happened. That's probably true. You can also make the case that if you never treat fish, they die from diseases more often.

I met someone who is well respected in the hobby who told me they have never used meds in the last 10+ years and their fish are great. This doesn't compute to me, imagine every dog or cat you've come into contact with in the last 10 years, and none have never had a shot or med. I believe that it's just easier for a human to be like, well tetra number 26 died today, must have been old age. Instead of remembering they've only owned that tetra for 3 years and it's well before it's end of life.

I'll end it with, I share with the public what we do, and why I do it. It's up for others to make that decision. I myself want to get long lives out of fish and I treat them when they come into my possession. Hopefully getting a handle on everything they come in with from a wholesaler. To bring back the cancer analogy, I want to catch it and treat it early, instead of waiting until it's affecting life quality already.

[BF McUmber]

On 5/18/2022 at 2:11 PM, Cory said:

So a couple of things I'd bring is as some points to think about. With fish that aren't new to you/you know the history. You can definitely take your time medicating. As in doing just the dewormer first, then doing ich X after etc.

Also one thing that gets glossed over a lot is, fish that are "fine" but then start dying with meds. The real life example of this would be, You could have been fine for the last 5 years. The doctors find you have cancer, the treatment of cancer can kill you. This happens with fish as well. Imagine something most people can't see, like gill flukes. Lets say this has been going on for 6 months to a year and there is gill damage. Not enough to notice labored breathing or anything. However then you add a med to the water and it changes how much oxygen is left in the water. If they were already compromised for oxygen exchange, making it harder can be the 1-2 punch. However if you never treat it, you'll just see that result 6 months down the road and the fish die off 1 by 1.

I think medicating/illness is the most difficult thing in the hobby because there are so many factors. Could the maracyn kill bacteria. It could, but in our experience it doesn't as I've used it with tanks for 15 years straight. But I also know that for the most part, all the beneficial bacteria I would have come into contact with in the last 15 years, would have seen maracyn before. I would wager most other people's would have as well, but there's always a chance it hadn't and gets hit by it. I doubt that all bacteria is killed by the maracyn but there could be some disruption.

But again, people forget that most of the oxygen requirement of the average aquarium comes from the bacteria. Not the fish. So if you put in meds that affect oxygen levels, the bacteria can die from lack of oxygen instead of the antibiotic. Which just makes things irritating to try and figure out.

If I had to guess what happened here, it is a combination of a few factors, with nothing concrete, lets say 10% bacteria died to the maracyn. Lets say 30% less oxygen from meds. Some gill damage from the past, whether it was gill flukes or ammonia at a wholesaler etc. Then factor in that meds themselves are stressful, and add in 0.5ppm ammonia on top of that. You get a recipe for stressful soup, that makes the fish not happy. The outcome is you can say, if you never treat the fish that wouldn't have happened. That's probably true. You can also make the case that if you never treat fish, they die from diseases more often.

I met someone who is well respected in the hobby who told me they have never used meds in the last 10+ years and their fish are great. This doesn't compute to me, imagine every dog or cat you've come into contact with in the last 10 years, and none have never had a shot or med. I believe that it's just easier for a human to be like, well tetra number 26 died today, must have been old age. Instead of remembering they've only owned that tetra for 3 years and it's well before it's end of life.

I'll end it with, I share with the public what we do, and why I do it. It's up for others to make that decision. I myself want to get long lives out of fish and I treat them when they come into my possession. Hopefully getting a handle on everything they come in with from a wholesaler. To bring back the cancer analogy, I want to catch it and treat it early, instead of waiting until it's affecting life quality already.

Thank you for the response Cory, 

I do want to be clear that I am not trying to combat your experience or your proven methods that continue to work for you. I do not have the knowledge or experience to even touch that, so I hope I did not come off that way. Most everything I know is from you and some other Youtubers, and I thank you for your transparency and willingness to teach. I know that the meds are a effective thing, and that a lot of people use them. What I was frustrated with was with how so many people are using them, why am I repeatedly having issues. 

The fish that I treated came from 2 tanks one that just arrived and one that had been there for a month or so. So maybe the ones that are doing better are the older ones... or the opposite. The fish were definitely thin and I wanted to get meds to them. I thought it best to at least get some food into them for a few days before starving them through the meds though. So 100% the fish could have had something wrong with them and were partially compromised. Again, I am less stressed by their death than I am by my lack of ability to administer the trio. 

I knew that the BB consumed oxygen but I had not idea to what amount. That is very interesting to hear that their needs are greater than the fish and I will definitely keep that in mind going forwards. I assume that also sets up for, if the BB start dying off that they can then snowball fowl up a tank pretty quick. Thank you for this information. In the past this could have happened as well even when I had the box filter and sponge filter going at the same time, I always thought it was the fish that were greater consumers.  

Additionally besides some bacteria that came from the co-op plants, LRBrets plants and the fish all my BB came out of a bottle. So that could possibly account for a lack in resistance. 
 

[Cory]

No worries, I try to explain things in expanse because I know a lot of people read what I write and it's an opportunity to get people to think on a subject more 😉

[BF McUmber]

I didn't find just a air stone, but I had a box filter that I threw in. I turned the air up a little bit so I have significantly more surface agitation. I did place the pot and the moss so that hopefully there are done good low flow spots.

The cpds are still acting lethargic and sometimes just stop moving and tumble. We will see how we go from here. 

 

[WhitecloudDynasty]

I have used it a few time with no problem but I run alot of air in my aquarium.

I recommend removing the lid and cranking up the air. You want the bubble to break the surface 

[BF McUmber]

I tested this morning and the test did not show ammonia. I'll test tonight to confirm again.  The fish are still acting rough. The main thing they are doing is kicking and then floating up and down and or side to side for a few seconds and then weakly kick again. That or just lying on the substrate. 

Assuming the extra air and movement is the real fix I needed,  when should I think of putting meds back in? Should I give them a break and just feed for a bit with what I just put them through? 

 

@WhitecloudDynasty I put the lid in on an angle so it is out of the water.  It directs my pops towards the back wall which is easier to clean.  I did turn the air up a bit,  but as the box filter does not have an air stone it makes lots of movement.  

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by BF McUmber

[WhitecloudDynasty]

Great update!

When I add anything into the water I add more air. It's raise the tds mean it taking up more space and less oxygen can get in

[Dancing Matt]

I think giving them a break would be good, they are already stressed. See if you can't get them back down.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Dancing Matt

[sumplkrum]

Yeah, it's probably a mixture of elements. Higher ph than they're used to, not quite enough air, then they get a dose of meds that stresses them.
It could also be that they were sick when you got them. You didn't say the source, but with a lot of pet stores I assume the fish are already sick.

I have had ammonia spikes when dosing meds but it's never been immediate. Either the tank was stocked heavy, or by the third day I needed to do a water change.

--

If you're having that much trouble, observe the fish for a few days when you first get them. Let them acclimate and see that they will eat.
Then stop feeding and do a big water change. Dose the meds and closely watch the ammonia. If ammonia is going up, full water change so it's clean again and redose. You should be able to get through a full five-day treatment. Assume that the filter isn't doing anything and water change your way through it.

--

Another possible option would be trying to get the ph of the quarantine tank below 7.0 before you get the fish. At that point a small amount of ammonia won't be nearly as deadly. Not an option right now, but something to consider for future situations.

[BF McUmber]

Thank you all for the knowledge drop about the o2 needs and usage. I had not retained/ learned that before and that will definitely help me in the future!

As a follow-up, I put the box filter in and had it bubbling pretty aggressively. (I bought a oxygen test kit out of curiosity but it got delayed.) I lost 4 fish while letting them recover for a week after the above struggle. After that I was able to successfully put the med trio in and did not have any issues with ammonia this time. I was even able to feed during the last half of it with no issue as well. I started feeding because two of the fish looked kind of thin. During the treatment I lost one fish but I think he was the one constantly attacking his reflection on the glass for some reason. 

Currently, I have made it through the first round of paracleanse, but I have 2 fish that are looking thin still and not interested in food. I have been feeding frozen baby brine shrimp in the morning and then blood worms or daphnia in the evening to try to get them to put weight on. So far it looks like 4 of them are taking to the food pretty well and are looking fairly healthy. The two of concern mainly just sit in the java moss or just outside it. They really only move sometimes when I "threaten" them by looking at them. They stay in the same spot and even if food in the water column goes right past them they don't even move.  

Would it be worth treating with levamisole in between the Paracleanse treatments, or would that be too hard on the fish?
If treating is ok, should I use some carbon to make sure the trio gets out before adding the Levamisole? 

I am hoping that at minimum I can keep the ones that are putting on weight alive. I it looks like they are two males and two females, so maybe if my skill allows I could repopulate. I got vinegar eels and micro worms starting to culture to prep for the best. I may try to feed the micro worms to the adults when the culture gets going. 

Thank you again for the big help on the lesson in increasing in o2 though! 

[Colu]

I would do a course of levamisole in between treatments of paracleanse I would do a water change and run active carbon to remove the other medications  for 24hr before treating with levamisole 

[BF McUmber]

Excellent, thank you @Colu I will do that.