Home water softeners

[Myparrotfishcrew]

Does anyone know anything about home water softeners. Mine uses salt in a tank placed in the garage. All our water comes through it. My PH stays a consistent 8.0.  Do I need to add anything to my water for happy healthy parrots and fish?

[Sleepy]

You’re going to want to test your water at the tap I would suggest getting the api master test kit and a gh/kh test kit (the co-op sells both) to know exactly what you are starting with and go from there.

[Myparrotfishcrew]

Testing with API KIT 
PH 8.2 

50-100 KH (carbonate hardness) 8 drops

0-50 GH ( general hardness ) 2 drops

Im not sure if this answers my questions yet. Because I still don’t know if my water softener is removing the nutrients my Parrot fish need. 
can I assume that this is ok. Or should I be adding some kind of nutrients?

 

[kcsquare]

I also have a water softener. I think the main thing it does is remove hardness, which is pretty much just minerals.  It wouldn't really remove nutrients. The things that your fish need (bacteria that eats ammonia) are in your filter (biological media) & decorations and substrate. 

So, if the fish you keep need hard water (e.g. african cichlids), then you don't want to use water that's gone through the softener. I use water from the hose b/c it doesn't pass through my water softener. 

I have read far less about south american cichlids (like parrots), but I think they prefer water that's NOT soft too. Read and learn more about that.... 

That said, Ive also read that consistency is the most important thing. As long as your water is staying consistent youre probably ok if you're close to the range. 

[Kat_Rigel]

The salt in water softeners is used to replace certain minerals. Specifically, the salt is NaCl (sodium chloride.) The sodium ions are used to replace and remove the large amounts of magnesium and calcium in your water. Kh is carbonate hardness- a softener doesn't change how much carbonate you have. Gh measures the amount of magnesium and calcium in your water, and since your water softeners is taking out those ions and replacing them with sodium, your Gh out of the tap is going to be lower than if you did NOT have a water softener. (No water softeners = crazy high gH.) You'll also have higher sodium levels, but they generally are not at a level that you should be concerned about.

Generally, calcium in your water causes unwanted buildup on water fixtures. I'm guessing you have seen that white crusty buildup on, say, a shower head? Or look up commercials for cleaning product CLR, they show it all the time. That "lime scale" buildup. That's from hard water. So we like to put sodium in our water instead, because it doesn't cause as many problems.

 Water softeners won't necessarily take out ALL of the calcium and magnesium, so you'll still need to test. If you wanted more hardness, you could try to access the water before it hits the water softener, but that could be a pain depending on how your house is set up.

Will be happy to give more detail regarding why the sodium replaces those ions, but I'm guessing you don't need or want a chemistry lesson. 🙂 (I have a chemistry background, and also grew up with well water lol)

[Sleepy]

Just realized it looks like we are talking saltwater hopefully someone else can help I think most of the members here are going to be freshwater only. Good luck!

[Myparrotfishcrew]

No I’m talking fresh water Blood parrots and Yuan Bao, Golden Tiger 
 

Testing with API KIT 
PH 8.2 

50-100 KH (carbonate hardness) 8 drops

0-50 GH ( general hardness ) 2 drops

Im not sure if this answers my questions yet. Because I still don’t know if my water softener is removing the nutrients my Parrot fish need. 
can I assume that this is ok. Or should I be adding some kind of nutrients?

 

[Ben_RF]

If your plumber was worth his salt, you should have a bypass to get untreated water.  This is typically better when it comes to tanks.  

Are you familiar with your setup or do you need help learning how to put it in bypass?

Edited October 20, 2020 by Ben_RF

[Myparrotfishcrew]

Ok... for anyone interested here’s what I’ve figured out. (I’m trying to condense this the best I can for a quick read. 
The API test Hard water testing kit wasn’t showing any orange when testing. 
(thought I had a bad testing kit) 

I finally figured out I could get a sample of my unfiltered water via the sprinkler system. 
(comical to watch me trying to fill a cup just FYI) 

tested that sample (posting pictures of the results below) 

found the manual for my water softener and realized I can adjust the amount of filtering. 
(clueless to the functionality of this water softener) 

ive adjusted the softener to a medium hardness setting.  To hopefully keep it safe enough for my appliances, pipes etc. Yet optimal for my fish perimeters. (As much as possible anyhow) 

now I wait... till the already filtered water cycles through the system. 
 

my plan is to retest adjust retest adjust till I find the best options here. 
 

My concern is now..... I have had my fish i this filtered water for a couple months. It’s definitely not a desirable range for them at all. 
 

THIS IS MY QUESTION 

how should I go about changing this environment for them? Obviously the gradual process would be optimal. But considering then logistics of changing the filtered water etc it’s not really the best. 
small water changes daily be safe?? Maybe 25% daily??? 
please advise with wisdom! 
 

[Sleepy]

Ok thanks when I just saw Parrotfish I was like doh out of my realm lol!

What other fish do you have in the tank? I thought I saw a guppy?

Sounds like you had the fish prior to the water softener being installed? 

Honestly if they physically look ok and seem to be acting ok then they should be fine but if you want to put some more hardness back into the water you could use wonder shells, crushed coral, seachem equilibrium. Most importantly just make sure that Ammonia and Nitrite are at 0 of course and stability on the parameters rather than chasing a number.

[Pekitivey]

So this is my understanding, the salt removes hardness. if the fish want hard water liike guppies would then you need to add hardness back in or, bypass the sofetner when water changing.

 

If the fish dont want hard water then no need to worry....carry on as normal.

 

What I dont get is this......... How much salt is safe for fish. i cant really find anything that shows if fish can tolarate the salt from the softener long term. I have been looking into this as i will be moving soon  to a house that will be using a softener.

[Ben_RF]

Just out of curiosity would you post your make and model of your softener?  And do you use a whole house filter before the softener?  And do you have any other forms of treatment?  Just trying to get an understanding of your setup. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Ben_RF

[Ben_RF]

If you are wanting to temporarily get untreated water due to concern about the impact of salt, this wiki shows the two most common ways to bypass the softener.  Once you no longer need it in bypass, return valves back to their normal positions: 
 

How to Bypass a Water Softener

WWW.WIKIHOW.COM

---

When you want to bypass a water softener temporarily to perform maintenance, it's a simple matter of locating the bypass valve for the softener and setting it to stop directing water through the softener. However, there...

 

[Myparrotfishcrew]

2 hours ago, Ben_RF said:

Just out of curiosity would you post your make and model of your softener?  And do you use a whole house filter before the softener?  And do you have any other forms of treatment?  Just trying to get an understanding of your setup. 

thank you so much for your help and advice. 
I’m so grateful for your suggestions and advice. 
My reasoning(s)  for not running a hose to bypass is 

location- my water softener is located in the garage. Our house set up is substantially large. Plus the locations of 7 tanks within our house. The amount of water hoses and lengths would be a huge undertaking. Plus the odds of the fittings leaking water is pretty high. The size of my tanks plus carrying that many water buckets is not Going to work with my back issues. I do water changes weekly. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Myparrotfishcrew

[Myparrotfishcrew]

1 hour ago, Pekitivey said:

So this is my understanding, the salt removes hardness. if the fish want hard water liike guppies would then you need to add hardness back in or, bypass the sofetner when water changing.

 

If the fish dont want hard water then no need to worry....carry on as normal.

 

What I dont get is this......... How much salt is safe for fish. i cant really find anything that shows if fish can tolarate the salt from the softener long term. I have been looking into this as i will be moving soon  to a house that will be using a softener.

I’ve also had a hard time finding answers to these questions. 
thus far my concerns are more geared towards the hard water And minerals from that that my Parrot fish require. Finding a good happy medium for everyone is a challenge and the logistics in how to get the good end results is my experiment. Thank heavens for the posting people here who have guided me to get to this point. 
If you follow the threads here you’ll se ether suggestions and what I’ve done so far. I’ll keep posting as I find the solutions. 
my concerns are not the small particles of salt left as a residual in the water. That will come later if my research finds it could be come a problem. 

[clovenpine]

On 10/19/2020 at 1:36 PM, Kat_Rigel said:

 

Will be happy to give more detail regarding why the sodium replaces those ions, but I'm guessing you don't need or want a chemistry lesson. 🙂 (I have a chemistry background, and also grew up with well water lol)

Kat, just wanted to thank you for a fantastic explanation here. It's *just technical enough* to make sense and be useful without being overwhelmingly detailed. If you're not a teacher, I think you missed your calling!

[Myparrotfishcrew]

1 hour ago, Ben_RF said:

If you are wanting to temporarily get untreated water due to concern about the impact of salt, this wiki shows the two most common ways to bypass the softener.  Once you no longer need it in bypass, return valves back to their normal positions: 
 

How to Bypass a Water Softener

WWW.WIKIHOW.COM

---

When you want to bypass a water softener temporarily to perform maintenance, it's a simple matter of locating the bypass valve for the softener and setting it to stop directing water through the softener. However, there...

 

BEN!!! Ohhhhh I just clicked on this option. If I could access the valves and not need to worry about the hose option that would be fantastic! You are fantastic! Now I’ll check and see what’s out there. 🥵 I’ll have to climb over my husband’s Jeep part collection. 

straight From my supply source stinks like sulfur. Is sulfur a problem in aquariums? 
also shows ammonia. 

[Maggie]

Kat, your explanation fo GH and KH in this post has helped me understand what they mean, and I don't have a water softener bc my water is already soft. Thank you!!

Edited October 20, 2020 by Maggie
added Kat's name

[Ben_RF]

So typically what occurs when you put it in bypass is that your entire water system in your house is able to get unfiltered water.   Typically most large homes take 2 - 4 minutes to purge out old water from the line.  So you could use whatever fixture that would be nearest the tank, it doesn't have to come right by the unit.  No point in breaking your back, dontcha know.  When you get done, return your unit back to normal.  In the same fixture you were using run it for about the same amount of time to get any untreated water out.  

Most water softeners have a life expectancy of 10-12 years; though it is not unheard of for them to go up to 20.  If and when it does fail, it will be useful to know how to keep water flowing in your home until it cane be replaced.  

[Myparrotfishcrew]

What about the sulfur smell? Is or should it be a concern? 

[Kat_Rigel]

7 hours ago, clovenpine said:

Kat, just wanted to thank you for a fantastic explanation here. It's *just technical enough* to make sense and be useful without being overwhelmingly detailed. If you're not a teacher, I think you missed your calling!

 

7 hours ago, Maggie said:

Kat, your explanation fo GH and KH in this post has helped me understand what they mean, and I don't have a water softener bc my water is already soft. Thank you!!

*blush* ☺ No prob! I'm glad folks found it helpful.

9 hours ago, Pekitivey said:

What I dont get is this......... How much salt is safe for fish. i cant really find anything that shows if fish can tolarate the salt from the softener long term. I have been looking into this as i will be moving soon  to a house that will be using a softener

I would notnworry about long term effects of using a water softener. I know it definitely seems like you are adding all of that sodium chloride (salt) from the softener, but really you are only replacing the calcium (which is also a type of salt!) and magnesium (also also a kind of salt!) that was in the water already. So you aren't adding tons of salt (like it might seem,) you are replacing a salt that is already there with a different kind of salt. I do not expect any kind of long term effect from that. (Please feel free to ask more questions if that was unclear.)

[Maggie]

On 10/19/2020 at 1:36 PM, Kat_Rigel said:

The salt in water softeners is used to replace certain minerals. Specifically, the salt is NaCl (sodium chloride.) The sodium ions are used to replace and remove the large amounts of magnesium and calcium in your water. Kh is carbonate hardness- a softener doesn't change how much carbonate you have. Gh measures the amount of magnesium and calcium in your water, and since your water softeners is taking out those ions and replacing them with sodium, your Gh out of the tap is going to be lower than if you did NOT have a water softener. (No water softeners = crazy high gH.) You'll also have higher sodium levels, but they generally are not at a level that you should be concerned about.

Generally, calcium in your water causes unwanted buildup on water fixtures. I'm guessing you have seen that white crusty buildup on, say, a shower head? Or look up commercials for cleaning product CLR, they show it all the time. That "lime scale" buildup. That's from hard water. So we like to put sodium in our water instead, because it doesn't cause as many problems.

 Water softeners won't necessarily take out ALL of the calcium and magnesium, so you'll still need to test. If you wanted more hardness, you could try to access the water before it hits the water softener, but that could be a pain depending on how your house is set up.

Will be happy to give more detail regarding why the sodium replaces those ions, but I'm guessing you don't need or want a chemistry lesson. 🙂 (I have a chemistry background, and also grew up with well water lol)

Kat, I have a question. Can you explain "buffering capacity"? My water pH drops significantly from the tap (about 7) to aging (6.8) to in the tank (no occupants yet except plants and hitchhiker snails) with driftwood (6.4) and I checked again and it's now fallen to 6.2. The driftwood leached a little color when soaking, but has not discolored my tank so far. My gH and kH are both ~89.5 ppm from the tap. Will Wonder Shells work to help keep pH closer to 7, and how do they work? Thanks!

[Ben_RF]

10 hours ago, Myparrotfishcrew said:

What about the sulfur smell? Is or should it be a concern? 

So typically in well water, the rotten egg smell is most commonly hydrogen sulfide gas (h2s) or bacteria or cross contamination of sewage.  As long as you didn't just go to Lowes or Home Depot and grab a softener, whoever set it up should have done a water sample tests for you to best match your system to your water.  If you still have that report, if they gave it to you, you should be able to look up the cause of the smell on it.  You can also do some home testings or pay someone else to do water testing for you, if you don't know your water makeup.  

While I do work in plumbing, to be honest I am not sure what the impact of sulfide gas would have on an aquarium.  At my office we typically only do a few water treatment systems, and refer out the rest to specialists.  In regards to the gas, some say it is not healthy for humans and then there are some sources that say in small amounts its relatively harmless. When the gas is present, it is generally recommended to have a well vent or other option installed if one is not there already for the gas to have a way to escape.  If it is bacteria, some will advise treating. and some say its relatively harmless for humans.  If it is bacteria, it can be located in a number of places from the well, the plumbing system itself, or even the water softener (or water heater if its isolated to the hot water).  It might be a pain to locate it, but if it was me most likely I would try to treat for it.  Also if it was me and it was hydrogen sulfide, then I would not use unfiltered water and only use treated water.  

Also it is good every so often (some recommend yearly others push it off a bit longer) to test your well water for different forms of bacteria (like coliform) to make sure your water is good.  When you do your testing, you do want to check for other things that might be relevant to your state/region.  

Edited October 21, 2020 by Ben_RF

[Ben_RF]

Also when it comes time to replace your water softener at the ten year mark, typically I would recommend going with either a Watts or Puronics.  Water quality specialists who typically use Watts generally will use Watts water testing on top of their own testing.  Seeing it on the backend where the customer doesn't see it, I have to admit I have been very impressed by how thorough they are in Watt's lab work and matching specifically what the customer needs. The only real downside is that they take a while to do their reports so it may be a few weeks until you get it back.  Puronics on the otherhand has an impressive range of options in what they offer, and in my own personal opinion offer some of the best built units on the market.  

Edit:  Looking at your picture.  I am not sure if that is the product information date or the age of the unit.  If it was installed in 2007, then you may wish to go ahead and start looking to replace your unit.  

Edited October 21, 2020 by Ben_RF

[Myparrotfishcrew]

1 hour ago, Ben_RF said:

Also when it comes time to replace your water softener at the ten year mark, typically I would recommend going with either a Watts or Puronics.  Water quality specialists who typically use Watts generally will use Watts water testing on top of their own testing.  Seeing it on the backend where the customer doesn't see it, I have to admit I have been very impressed by how thorough they are in Watt's lab work and matching specifically what the customer needs. The only real downside is that they take a while to do their reports so it may be a few weeks until you get it back.  Puronics on the otherhand has an impressive range of options in what they offer, and in my own personal opinion offer some of the best built units on the market.  

Edit:  Looking at your picture.  I am not sure if that is the product information date or the age of the unit.  If it was installed in 2007, then you may wish to go ahead and start looking to replace your unit.  

My house was built in 2005 so it would surprise me at all if the water softener was 2007 installed. 
I’m going to call a plumber today. See what it will cost to flush my hot water heater and service my water softener. 
thank you so much Ben! 
To bad you aren’t located here in gorgeous Southeast Georgia!! 😁👍🏼