« Do your research » …yes, but…

[Karen B.]

Do your research is one of the first advice given to any aquarists. I understand the purpose and it’s great to avoid impulse buy or end up with incompatible fish.

 

Doing research is actually part of my job, so that’s a task I take seriously and go through thoroughly… maybe too much?

 

Because 75% of the time, after reading on the subject and asking around, I end up more confused then anything.

 

Obviously there are some facts that are unanimously agreed upon by most people. 

 

But it doesn’t seem to be the case of most things and it’s one part of the hobby that stresses me out so much. I want my fish to be happy and thriving, yet I don’t speak fish nor am I a good observer in ~any~ sphere of my life.

 

The latest (and very frustrating) exemple is :

I have a 20 gallons high, heavily planted (on the picture it’s a 10 gallons but I will move everything to my 20 high and add more plants + 2 apistogramma cave)

I would like to house a pair of apistogramma and some dither fish (I had a lot in mind, but settled with cpd… maybe 10-12?)

 

 

So I asked on this forum, on many facebook groups, a breeder, on an apistogramma forum and even directly to the aquarium coop customer service email team. I did not get a single similar answer. It ranged from « yes no problem », « ok but only apistogramma and no other fish » to « no a 20 high isn’t enough swimming space for apisto ». … How am I then supposed to make any sense of these conflictual information and take a decision? How do you guys proceed?

 

I would really like to hear @Cory  on the subject… and also what he thinks about a 20 gallons high with a pair of apisto and 10-12 cpd?

 

Thank you all and have a nice day!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Ahh @Karen B., I get it. I've given advice that in my experience works here on the forum several times- the person asking the question understands and thanks me then someone else comes along and says the (or nearly) opposite- so yeah I get how people would be confused. It's not that the other person is wrong (or that I'm right) it's that in THEIR experience what they say ALSO worked for them. Research is great but this is not a math equation when it comes to aquariums- yes there's science involved but there are too many factors that effect outcomes, water sources, substrate, plants, filtration, fish species AND the INDIVIDUAL FISH (like Betta temperments range from wallflower up to angry ball of fins)- and so on and so forth ad nauseam. When asking the questions you ask you have to weigh the information- scales tip from one side to the other. Personally advice from people who have kept the fish or done the thing weighs more than those who have heard or read about said subject (but those count too, just maybe not as heavily). Kind of like when you read reviews for products on say Amazon- the truth is somewhere in the middle of it- but what you do see is what people hated about it and what the loved about it- do those things matter to you? You toss out the things that don't and keep the things you do. Every tank is an experiment in one way or another- there's a lot of gray here. That's frustrating for people who think in black and white terms but it's great practice to learn- you can weigh all this out then do what you feel is best and it may not work- or it may be brilliant- you have to use your judgement. It's not that shocking really- every pet is different, every child is different, every environment is different- so what works for one doesn't for the other or even sorta works for them. Life is beautiful that way. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Scapexghost]

There aren't tons of studies being done on these things, so those answers are going to be based on personal experience and anecdotal evidence. That doesn't mean they're wrong, and it would be nearly impossible to prove any of them wrong. Research is useful but at the end of the day you have to try things for yourself and form your own conclusions.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

(oh and after you've taken the advice multiple times you know whose advice works best for you- kinda like youtube- so far Cory's videos work best and make the most sense for me- this has been proven in the advice that I've followed from him and his channel multiple times so I go to him more often than others)

[ange]

So one of the things with fish is that there are more variables than what we assume. I'll take your example of a 20H and your stocking choices. From a needs perspective, your apistos and dithers should do great in a 20H! In practice that will vary which is why a very common piece of advice is to have a backup plan. Fish have individual personalities. There are angelfish that need to fly solo due to conspecific aggression, apistos that won't tolerate anyone who isn't making babies with them, bettas that have it out for tank mates, and more.

There are also cases where things that you would think are destined to fail, but end up succeeding: betta sororities, tetras with long-finned fish, African cichlids or goldfish in planted tanks, GBRs or discus in lower temp setups, the list goes on.

Most of the data on fishkeeping is empirical at best and there is a lot of trial and error involved if you have a very specific setup that you want to work with. If I interpret the advice that you were given, I think that I can come up with the reasoning behind some of the answers that were given.

• Do you plan to breed your apistos? Many purists will say that you should have them in a species only setup if this is the case as you will generally have the most success and the fewest losses.  That said, there are numerous documented cases of breeding in a community setting so I wouldn't let this turn you away unless your apistos begin causing harm to tankmates.
• The footprint of a 20H is enough space for a pair of apistos in my opinion. That said, I'm more on the angelfish/ram side of things and 20H is adequate for a temporary breeding setup for angels or a permanent setup for a pair of GBRs. For Bolivian rams it would be dependent on the individual fish. I'm sorry for not using apistos as an example but I have far more experience with keeping and breeding angels/rams compared to apistos and hopefully can illustrate the thought process that I use there so that you can apply it to your fish.
• A lot of the direct "yes" or "no" answers will come from people who have either tried and succeeded or tried and failed with your setup or one that was very similar. People tend to assume that what does/doesn't work for them means that it does/doesn't work period.

If you're a member on YouTube and want an in-depth response from Cory I highly recommend that you ask when they open questions for their members streams. Even if you can't attend the stream, the VOD will be posted and Cory and Zenzo have given a lot more in-depth answers there. I don't even bring questions to the stream and they're incredibly valuable to watch because you see the depth of thought given and the occasional conflicting opinions of experienced aquarists, as well as what contributes to why there's conflict. On the hobby side of aquariums there isn't a black and white right or wrong. It's one of those things that you have to develop a feel for. I've had the luxury of time and observation since I'm an analytically-minded person and observation was a major component of my career for several years, but I understand that it may require more practice for others.

[gardenman]

There are no absolute answers. You just try stuff and see what works for you. People who tell you things will tell you what works for them or what they've seen others say works for them. Three feet to my right as I type this is my ten-gallon "quarantine tank." (Well, it was originally a quarantine tank.) A couple of years ago I plopped in a pair of swordtails to keep the tank cycled and then I added five Super Red bristlenose pleco fry because the breeder box I had them in was getting overcrowded. As I type this there are now about twenty adult, fully grown swordtails in that tank,  a lot of subadult swordtails, the five now adult Super Reds, and about fifty Super Red fry from the last two spawns they've had in that tank. In a ten-gallon tank. It's not a level of stocking I would recommend to anyone sane, but it works. The water quality stays good. The fish are spawning nearly nonstop. Hence the large number of fish. Everyone's happy, well the swordtails think they're underfed as they're constantly begging for food, but if you ignore that, they're happy. Should you go out and buy twenty swordtails for a ten-gallon tank? No. Does it work for me? Yes. 

Anyone telling you if you can or can't combine apistos and CPDs in a twenty could be right or they could be wrong. It depends on a lot of other things. The only way you'll know if it works for you is by doing it. There are no absolute answers, only opinions and other peoples' experience.

[Cory]

@Karen B. If you aren't reading scientific publications or at least things with cited sources you're getting opinions. Essentially what you're doing is polling people.

Lets imagine you want to make the best pizza. Ask on your facebook which is the best pizza? You'll get people saying different toppings, you'll get people saying thin crust, chicago style. A pizza is only a pizza pie! marinara only. Only pizza cooked on a stone, only pizza cooked in a fire etc. Now you go ask a pizza forum, then a cooking forum. Finally you call your local pizza place.

Now you have polling data from 10 sources. Stone fired pizza got 3 votes and thus is the "best pizza". None of this took into account you don't own a stone oven, and probably don't know how to operate one. All this data is subjective and not factual.

You've essentially done the same thing with with Apistos and CPDs. You have a bunch of opinions, all of which aren't factual. These opinions probably haven't factored in your skill level, water structure, source or type of apistos etc.

The answer for aquariums is pretty much always yes and no. For every single situation you can come up with.  One last thing I'll leave you with before I answer the question with my opinion. By telling the people you ask questions to that you're asking lots of other parties, their answers will inherently be less involved than otherwise. An example is our customer service, the more you ask that is not product/customer service related, I would imagine the more brief the answers are getting because they have a job to do and while they will answer the question most times, this isn't their main focus or their specialty. Their main purpose being to fix problems with the ordering process.

On to Apistos in a 20 high, with 10-12 cpds. To actually answer the question, which apistos? If it's most of the warm water ones, I'd say don't use that combo. Apistos wanting to be at 82-84 degrees is opposite of what CPDS want. However if you were to go with say Apistogramma Borelli which is known to be a cooler water apisto, water parameters are no longer a problem.

With Borelli and CPDs, you'll want to make sure the CPDs are already decent size so they aren't eaten, make sure the plants are well established, and that there are caves setup. Then introduce the Borelli after quarantine. Watch for aggression during spawning and make sure you have lots of small foods like live or frozen baby brine shrimp, cyclops etc. I've personally spawned a few different apistos in 10gs, and 20gs, a mix of non aggressive other fish as dithers typically work out well.

Depending on what aspect is most worrisome, heat, compatibility, or space the answer changes. Compatibility, use hatchfish that stay up top instead, they will also do the heat. If it's space, look into apistogrammoides instead of apistogrammas.

For everything I've said, there is someone out there on the internet that would argue the opposite of all of my points.  This is why I don't use the general internet/social media for my sources of information, I use it for opinions. I look for published documents, and lots of my own personal experience. Hopefully over time you'll embrace the, try it and see and learning from it. When learning from others you get the good and the bad. You may have a family that teaches you how to read, ride a bike etc, But also might teach you bad habits also. Learning for yourself in my experience has always been useful to compare to other's experiences. This helps me to know which opinion would likely work best for me.  You probably are already doing this to some degree. You probably realize a 10,000 square foot building with fish tanks and a staff of people breeding apistos is different from what you want to accomplish.

This is how I know the best pizza for me to cook is one out of the frozen section, then into the oven. I'll then hope it's edible.

[lefty o]

i do some research, but take everything with a grain of salt. so many varied experiences, and so many old wives tales in fish keeping. you kind of have to sort through the bull dung.

[Patrick_G]

@Karen B. the nice thing about this forum is you get plenty of context for peoples opinions through journals, and past posts. A question will generate a bunch of answers and some conflicting advice but hopefully you’re able to find some general consensus. 

[modified lung]

Doing research is also a big part of my job. Even more, it's doing research on raising fish, so I know most of the lingo and the caveats and I'll tell you exactly what everyone else here said.

There are so many unknown variables happening in our aquariums that absolute answers are usually impossible. Even the scientists can't know all the variables in their studies. It's not uncommon for decades of studies to be invalidated because someone realized a variable is important.

Most of the time when the same thing that worked great for one person didn't work at all for another, it's because there is some variable that's either completely invisible or that we're unaware is important. 

In my experience, people on the internet who don't speak in absolutes usually have the good advice because they're aware of the variable problem. When I have a question, I always look for a range of possibilities instead of an absolute answer.

Edited April 17, 2022 by modified lung

[StockEwe49]

The best information you can learn is from experience. Sometimes you can only be so prepared for a new fish! 

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/17/2022 at 11:09 AM, Cory said:

On to Apistos in a 20 high, with 10-12 cpds. To actually answer the question, which apistos? If it's most of the warm water ones, I'd say don't use that combo. Apistos wanting to be at 82-84 degrees is opposite of what CPDS want. However if you were to go with say Apistogramma Borelli which is known to be a cooler water apisto, water parameters are no longer a problem.

I can't thumbs up the post, but this is a fantastic point!

My question, for my own knowledge, something in terms of a bolivian ram vs. an apisto.  Do apisto's tend to go midwater more often or is the aggression usually, only during breeding?

To the OP, I can reference a few times where I "did my research" and absolutely went in with a feeling like I was going to be doing the right thing. Only through experiencing it for myself did I really understand how poor the guidance I had received was. It's frustrating, and unfortunately when you're scrubbing the internet trying to find the answer (instead of having a trustworthy source) that is just how it goes sometimes.

[isaly]

I know the best pizza is a thin NY style pie cooked on the floor of an oven. The sauce isn't too sweet. In the end, it comes out slightly well done, with caramelized onions and anchovies on top.

Edited April 18, 2022 by isaly

[ndfi78]

On 4/18/2022 at 3:04 AM, isaly said:

I know the best pizza is a thin NY style pie cooked on the floor of an oven. The sauce isn't too sweet. In the end, it comes out slightly well done, with caramelized onions and anchovies on top.

Lost me at the end there 😄 😂

[Widgets]

On 4/18/2022 at 4:04 AM, isaly said:

I know the best pizza is a thin NY style pie cooked on the floor of an oven. The sauce isn't too sweet. In the end, it comes out slightly well done, with caramelized onions and anchovies on top.

Lost me at "thin NY style". I tried it on a trip to NY city and was not impressed. It would have been much better had it been fresh, but they only sell slices as precooked and rewarmed. Even my favorite pizza is not as good rewarmed. There is so much nostalgia with pizza. Whatever was the norm gowing up will often be your favorite as an adult.

[Streetwise]

Enjoy!

[JettsPapa]

On 4/18/2022 at 7:05 AM, ndfi78 said:

Lost me at the end there 😄 😂

I agree.  I'll go along with putting quite a few things on pizza, but I draw the line at fish.

Especially very salty fish.

Edited April 18, 2022 by JettsPapa

[anewbie]

On 4/17/2022 at 9:24 AM, Karen B. said:

Do your research is one of the first advice given to any aquarists. I understand the purpose and it’s great to avoid impulse buy or end up with incompatible fish.

 

Doing research is actually part of my job, so that’s a task I take seriously and go through thoroughly… maybe too much?

 

Because 75% of the time, after reading on the subject and asking around, I end up more confused then anything.

 

Obviously there are some facts that are unanimously agreed upon by most people. 

 

But it doesn’t seem to be the case of most things and it’s one part of the hobby that stresses me out so much. I want my fish to be happy and thriving, yet I don’t speak fish nor am I a good observer in ~any~ sphere of my life.

 

The latest (and very frustrating) exemple is :

I have a 20 gallons high, heavily planted (on the picture it’s a 10 gallons but I will move everything to my 20 high and add more plants + 2 apistogramma cave)

I would like to house a pair of apistogramma and some dither fish (I had a lot in mind, but settled with cpd… maybe 10-12?)

 

 

So I asked on this forum, on many facebook groups, a breeder, on an apistogramma forum and even directly to the aquarium coop customer service email team. I did not get a single similar answer. It ranged from « yes no problem », « ok but only apistogramma and no other fish » to « no a 20 high isn’t enough swimming space for apisto ». … How am I then supposed to make any sense of these conflictual information and take a decision? How do you guys proceed?

 

I would really like to hear @Cory  on the subject… and also what he thinks about a 20 gallons high with a pair of apisto and 10-12 cpd?

 

Thank you all and have a nice day!

apistogramma is a genus; the correct answer depends on the specific species. borelli are fine with cpd in a 20 high; though kubotai rasobra or pencil fishes are better.

 

You might be able to keep nijjensi in a 20 high; but a 20 long would be better. They might kill the cpd but a surface fish might be ok.

-

Having said this you would never find any species of apistogramma with cpd or kubotai  in the wild as they are from different continents. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by anewbie

[Silhouette]

I'm starting to learn that fish keeping is a lot of trial and error. No matter how much information you absorb, actually doing the thing is what's going to matter.

Ex: A month or so ago I got some white cloud mountain minnows for my 20g tank. Literally everywhere I read & videos I watched said how peaceful they are, they're such great community fish, etc etc. Well, those fish were absolute TERRORS in my tank. They were incredibly territorial, constantly went after one another as well as the other fish in the tank, and just constantly seemed to be aggressive. While they weren't necessarily hurting one another, it was literally chasing from one end of the tank to the other, and around again. Had tons of hardscape and plants for sight-line division and just... Yeah. Suffice to say I ended up rehoming them lol.

So my experience just happened to go against what everyone else claimed about that kind of fish, so if someone were to ask about wcmm, I'd have a completely different opinion than other people based on my own personal experience. I think you gotta just take in as many opinions and information as you can, and then make the best choice you can, all while knowing you might have to end up changing things anyway.

[Tihshho]

On 4/18/2022 at 11:27 PM, Silhouette said:

I'm starting to learn that fish keeping is a lot of trial and error. No matter how much information you absorb, actually doing the thing is what's going to matter.

Ex: A month or so ago I got some white cloud mountain minnows for my 20g tank. Literally everywhere I read & videos I watched said how peaceful they are, they're such great community fish, etc etc. Well, those fish were absolute TERRORS in my tank. They were incredibly territorial, constantly went after one another as well as the other fish in the tank, and just constantly seemed to be aggressive. While they weren't necessarily hurting one another, it was literally chasing from one end of the tank to the other, and around again. Had tons of hardscape and plants for sight-line division and just... Yeah. Suffice to say I ended up rehoming them lol.

So my experience just happened to go against what everyone else claimed about that kind of fish, so if someone were to ask about wcmm, I'd have a completely different opinion than other people based on my own personal experience. I think you gotta just take in as many opinions and information as you can, and then make the best choice you can, all while knowing you might have to end up changing things anyway.

How many of them did you have? These are a schooling species and generally schooling fish do get boisterous amongst their own, especially cooler water species like these guys. Depending on the aggression you were seeing, you may infact seen males chasing females trying to initiate spawning.

[Silhouette]

On 4/18/2022 at 9:29 PM, Tihshho said:

How many of them did you have? These are a schooling species and generally schooling fish do get boisterous amongst their own, especially cooler water species like these guys. Depending on the aggression you were seeing, you may infact seen males chasing females trying to initiate spawning.

I started with 6, 3 males and 3 females (didn't know at first about proper ratio for them, just took whatever the store gave me). It was really bad from day one so the next day I did some research and I decided to take back 1 of the males and get 3 more females, so 8 total with 2 males and 6 females. Aggression didn't stop, the males started staking out territory and attacked all other fish that came within radius to the point where all the rest of the fish in the tank were huddled in 1/3 of the tank. Eventually one female got "claimed" by a male, but if she so much as dared to look into the other male's territory he swam over to chase her, which triggered her own male who then chased her in turn and she started hiding at the bottom of the tank behind plants just to be safe. Two days later took both the males back and replaced them with females, so 8 females total now. Lasted for a few days and then... The females started becoming aggressive *sigh*

All in all I'd still like to try wcmm again in the future, in perhaps a larger/longer tank, but for whatever reason they just did not work out in my 20g.