A Heavy Flow Aquarium Design for Breeding Gold Nugget Plecos

[Fish Folk]

On 4/10/2022 at 11:49 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Yeah if just depends if you're running a lid or splashing or what the full plan is. I definitely wouldn't waterfall a HoB pump. You just have to make sure the pump has enough pressure to get the water to the height long term (and however far you want it to spray across). If you take dean's mod and cut a slice in the pipe, you'll get a waterfall.

That's brilliant. Now I have to try this out . . . killing me here!

So would you do something like this? Where the powerhead is redirected via PVC elbow up to spray bar?

 

[nabokovfan87]

Yep. Exactly. To be clear, I don't think it's required to have a waterfall, but water along the surface of the tank would push it down the side, etc. You could opt for a waterfall, you could opt to have one spray left, right, center, you have some options for sure.

[Fish Folk]

On 4/11/2022 at 12:11 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Yep. Exactly. To be clear, I don't think it's required to have a waterfall, but water along the surface of the tank would push it down the side, etc. You could opt for a waterfall, you could opt to have one spray left, right, center, you have some options for sure.

And I like the option of those Hydor fans blowing back from opposite side as suggested earlier too. Interesting! Now I've got to build this some day . . . confound this FORUM! No way can I keep up with the fascinating project possibilities here!

Edited April 11, 2022 by Fish Folk

[gardenman]

A double bottom tank is a neat option you might want to consider. Here's a video showing one in the decoration process. 

 

They simply glue in a false bottom open on either end and then throw in a big gyre pump under it. The following video shows a tank like this in action with a pleco at about the two-minute mark. It's pretty neat stuff.

 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

@gardenman, wow, that German place blew my mind!  That's a serious river setup!  And now, I want to wave maker for my Rift Lakes cichlids some day.  Crud!  That's not going to be cheap. 

[Fish Folk]

Agreed! @gardenman thanks so much for sharing those videos. That's waaaaay more impressive than anything I'd ever imagined. Plus, as G. Farmer says, "They're breeding in there" re: Gold Nugget Plecos. Wow!

I got an interesting response online the  I inquired why few of them are reported as breeding ex situ:

"In nature, Baryancistrus graze on algae all day long. Getting that kind of throughput of food, while maintaining maximum oxygen saturation (they are rheophile), low nitrate/nitrite levels that they like generally can not be achieved with filtration. In a flow through system perhaps we would have better success rates. There is another factor, fish of high value have more people trying to breed them. Today we have lots of people breeding zebra plecos, suggesting that they are easier to breed than any other Hypancistrus species - but it is just a question of how many people are trying. In the case of Baryancistrus xanthellus there is likely less than a handful of aquarists with a group of adults."

[gardenman]

Those are fun videos. If you really want a high-flow tank, they're good examples. I stumbled upon them a while back and loved them. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/11/2022 at 6:52 AM, gardenman said:

A double bottom tank is a neat option you might want to consider. Here's a video showing one in the decoration process. 

I am just going to assume the "best route" for a flow through setup (hopefully you can find one curved to force the water down?) would be to have a custom acrylic design. Super interesting way to have an aquarium and is definitely something that sets up a tank no one else would ever have.

[gardenman]

On 4/11/2022 at 5:53 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I am just going to assume the "best route" for a flow through setup (hopefully you can find one curved to force the water down?) would be to have a custom acrylic design. Super interesting way to have an aquarium and is definitely something that sets up a tank no one else would ever have.

These types of aquariums seem to be more popular in Europe than here. There are other videos of them being built and some include a horizontal panel above the outlet to direct the flow directly over the gravel. Some of the better gyre pumps can move over 5200 gallons per hour, which is a pretty substantial flow. One video I saw the owner designed caves that were at various angles and in some cases exposed and in other cases shielded so the fish (Hillstream loaches in this case if I recall correctly) could pick where they'd prefer to hang out in terms of current. He also built-in dead areas so the fish could rest up if need be. 

I like specialty fish tanks like these and suspect there's a market for them. When you look at what reef keepers will spend, it's hard to overprice something. Tanks designed for archerfish, river fish, and other fish with specialized needs could be a pretty profitable option in the right markets. Some of the tanks you see in Chinese markets come equipped with electronic monitoring built right into the tanks. At a glance you can see the pH, temp, and more. We don't do that for some reason.

I think Americans have gotten too used to what a fish tank "should" look like, and we don't push the boundaries enough. A bigger hood could hide a wave maker like that in the video along with a full above the tank filtration system and lighting. The false bottom tanks could be made pretty easily by a custom tank builder for a fairly minimal extra cost. (The pumps can get pricey though at $400 or so for the bigger ones.) Some creativity in the tank building world could open up the hobby more than it already is. There are a few toroidal (donut-shaped) tanks out there that work great for schooling fish. There are seemingly endless options, but no one seems overly interested in exploring them. Not much in the US market in terms of fish tank design has changed in the 50+ years I've been keeping fish. We went from rectangular Metaframe tanks to rectangular all glass/acrylic tanks, but that's about it. 

[Fish Folk]

On 4/11/2022 at 8:37 PM, gardenman said:

These types of aquariums seem to be more popular in Europe than here. There are other videos of them being built and some include a horizontal panel above the outlet to direct the flow directly over the gravel. Some of the better gyre pumps can move over 5200 gallons per hour, which is a pretty substantial flow. One video I saw the owner designed caves that were at various angles and in some cases exposed and in other cases shielded so the fish (Hillstream loaches in this case if I recall correctly) could pick where they'd prefer to hang out in terms of current. He also built-in dead areas so the fish could rest up if need be. 

I like specialty fish tanks like these and suspect there's a market for them. When you look at what reef keepers will spend, it's hard to overprice something. Tanks designed for archerfish, river fish, and other fish with specialized needs could be a pretty profitable option in the right markets. Some of the tanks you see in Chinese markets come equipped with electronic monitoring built right into the tanks. At a glance you can see the pH, temp, and more. We don't do that for some reason.

I think Americans have gotten too used to what a fish tank "should" look like, and we don't push the boundaries enough. A bigger hood could hide a wave maker like that in the video along with a full above the tank filtration system and lighting. The false bottom tanks could be made pretty easily by a custom tank builder for a fairly minimal extra cost. (The pumps can get pricey though at $400 or so for the bigger ones.) Some creativity in the tank building world could open up the hobby more than it already is. There are a few toroidal (donut-shaped) tanks out there that work great for schooling fish. There are seemingly endless options, but no one seems overly interested in exploring them. Not much in the US market in terms of fish tank design has changed in the 50+ years I've been keeping fish. We went from rectangular Metaframe tanks to rectangular all glass/acrylic tanks, but that's about it. 

Well - said! Admittedly, I’m not much practiced in thinking “outside the glass box,” but these videos are interesting!

[Widgets]

They even have these high flow tanks for people.

 

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/11/2022 at 5:45 PM, Widgets said:

They even have these high flow tanks for people

That is the greatest pond ever. I know what I want now.

[Fish Folk]

In case you missed it in the video posted by @Widgets, this is me in the high flow tank…

[Widgets]

To get slightly closer to on topic, here is a short video on the flow in the endless pool.

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/11/2022 at 6:04 PM, Widgets said:

To get slightly closer to on topic, here is a short video on the flow in the endless pool.

The real question is are the materials for this "pond" fish safe. 🤔

*puts on engineering hat*

OK. I dig the setup.

HoB on the side. add your circulation pumps as a bonus, the entire thing could be done in PVC if you wanted and not even have a HoB, but that does make life easy.

1. Get a tidal 75 or 110 or canister
2. Seal it good, easy maintenance with the tidal filter
3. PVC around the perimeter of the tank, the output of the PVC is connected to the down tube of the HoB.
4. integrate into each corner (opposite of the PVC) two circulation pumps with one on either side that feed into the bottom grid, feeding into the down tube of the HoB. 
5. Design the input, which is connected through the PVC grid opposite the HoB, which is going to either be sponges or some sort of a spray type of setup.  The "best option" will be to hide this behind some sponge to keep the pumps clear and further make maintenance easier.  (Think, Rachael's setup, but instead of being corner mounter, it's on the bottom edge of the tank and you have a small plexi wall keeping substrate off of the sponge.

Edited April 12, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Widgets]

On 4/11/2022 at 9:44 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

The real question is are the materials for this "pond" fish safe. 🤔

Apparently they are manatee safe.

https://www.endlesspools.com/blog/post/hugh-buffet-work-play-in-their-endless-pool

[Odd Duck]

On 4/10/2022 at 11:14 PM, Fish Folk said:

And I like the option of those Hydor fans blowing back from opposite side as suggested earlier too. Interesting! Now I've got to build this some day . . . confound this FORUM! No way can I keep up with the fascinating project possibilities here!

Exactly what I was thinking.  Too many projects and I’m supposed to be putting together a fish room.  Now all can think about is how I can round up another big tank for this project.  I literally don’t have a place to do this unless I put together the fish room!  Then I might be able to talk the hubby into it for the back bedroom where my current rack stands.

I suspect one way to achieve the flow without extreme set up expense, is to do some combination of the above that gets you at least a small fraction of what they got with that tank that had the gold nuggets.  I suspect they would be more tolerant of less as long as you give them something at least reasonably close to their natural circumstances.  There will always be individuals that live at various points in their overall habitat, so somebody will adapt for you.

I really like the loop with multiple power heads with sponge pre-filters.  But this is also one of the few times I’d consider using a big canister filter to move water end to end and do a multi-level (2-3 level, top one a narrow slot return for waterfall effect?) spray bar as the return.  Then maybe add some episodic Hydor fan action for a pretend storm run-off timed with local storms/pressure changes, and water changes could be very effective, I suspect.

I can definitely picture a 75-100 G with a triple row of power heads hooked to sponge intakes at the other end, plus a double spray bar from a giant canister with outlet at the same end all pouring over a bed of cobbles, pebbles, and gravel.  Tuck in the Hydor fans for even more agitation intermittently and I’d bet you’re going to come close enough to what they need to trigger breeding.

I think this would be a tank that needs an egg-crate bottom with screen over it (like @Dark River Aquatics recent posting in his fabulous, end on 10 G scapes) stacked with river rock/cobble, then covered in pebbles and pea gravel.  After that the only question would be: species only with the Baryancistrus xanthellus or add other species, too.  Clearly need to find some bigger rocks for some turbulence plus flow blocks to divert water and create quiet spots.  Find some terra cotta tubes of assorted sizes (possibly the trickiest get) with some positioned so water is vigorously flowing through, some turned farther sideways, some tucked under rocks so the end is nearly blocked, some caves with flow past the mouth of the cave but with limited flow into the cave.

I’m still hoping for more pics of plecos, especially the ventral aspect and closeups of the genital papillae.  Don’t stop the ideas flowing though!

[gardenman]

The tank cost of a double bottom tank isn't all that high. You just need a piece of glass that's narrow enough to just fit inside the tank and leaves a few inches on either end exposed. One of the builds I saw the builder used shot glasses as spacers to hold that piece of glass in place while he siliconed it in. You could do it with a 20 long or a 40 breeder, but I wouldn't go smaller than a 20 long. Then you just need grating/grids to let the water flow and keep the fish on the good side. The pumps can be pricey or cheap depending on what kind of flow you want. Gyre pumps are often used, but other options exist also. For those types of tanks, you don't want or need a taller tank. Three or four inches of water is perfectly adequate for fish like the smaller plecos. The lower volume of water you have, the smaller pump you need and the faster current you can create with a smaller pump.  

If you're having a custom glass or acrylic aquarium made, adding the false bottom should only increase the cost a small percentage. The glass/acrylic for the false bottom would be smaller than the front, back, and real bottom pieces. The extra labor costs would be minimal also. It could be installed in less than ten minutes or so. Adding a slight tilt to the false bottom could increase the current speed also by utilizing gravity to add to the current speed. Water runs faster downhill, but you don't want your fish climbing Mount Everest. Maybe a ten to twenty degree slope could be useful though. Just be sure that if the power goes out, any fish caught on the uphill side still have water. You can use the space under the false bottom as an in-tank sump for biofiltration. Though the flow rate might be a tad high for maximum efficiency. Given the oxygenation such a system would have, something like K1 media trapped in there might be a good option. You'd have to be careful with the density so as not to obstruct water flow too much.

There are lots of fun variables to play with in such a system. If you want to create something close to a real mountain stream though, the false bottom tanks are the way to go. If you have an external filter (a bigger canister maybe?) you could slide the bottom divider all the way to one end and install a bulkhead down very low on the tank or even in the bottom glass (be careful though, bottom glass is often tempered) to supply the canister intake. Then have the canister return dump in on the high side (through another bulkhead in the tank side wall maybe?) and flow down to the gap in the false bottom and back to the canister. You'd want a pretty powerful canister filter though.

There are lots of things that can be played with and lots of variables to explore. It wouldn't have to be terribly expensive though. If you already have a 20 long or 40 breeder you could cobble together an effective system for under $100. As tanks get bigger the costs would increase, but given what some people spend on reef tanks, it would be a bargain in comparison.

[Odd Duck]

On 4/12/2022 at 8:30 AM, gardenman said:

The tank cost of a double bottom tank isn't all that high. You just need a piece of glass that's narrow enough to just fit inside the tank and leaves a few inches on either end exposed. One of the builds I saw the builder used shot glasses as spacers to hold that piece of glass in place while he siliconed it in. You could do it with a 20 long or a 40 breeder, but I wouldn't go smaller than a 20 long. Then you just need grating/grids to let the water flow and keep the fish on the good side. The pumps can be pricey or cheap depending on what kind of flow you want. Gyre pumps are often used, but other options exist also. For those types of tanks, you don't want or need a taller tank. Three or four inches of water is perfectly adequate for fish like the smaller plecos. The lower volume of water you have, the smaller pump you need and the faster current you can create with a smaller pump.  

If you're having a custom glass or acrylic aquarium made, adding the false bottom should only increase the cost a small percentage. The glass/acrylic for the false bottom would be smaller than the front, back, and real bottom pieces. The extra labor costs would be minimal also. It could be installed in less than ten minutes or so. Adding a slight tilt to the false bottom could increase the current speed also by utilizing gravity to add to the current speed. Water runs faster downhill, but you don't want your fish climbing Mount Everest. Maybe a ten to twenty degree slope could be useful though. Just be sure that if the power goes out, any fish caught on the uphill side still have water. You can use the space under the false bottom as an in-tank sump for biofiltration. Though the flow rate might be a tad high for maximum efficiency. Given the oxygenation such a system would have, something like K1 media trapped in there might be a good option. You'd have to be careful with the density so as not to obstruct water flow too much.

There are lots of fun variables to play with in such a system. If you want to create something close to a real mountain stream though, the false bottom tanks are the way to go. If you have an external filter (a bigger canister maybe?) you could slide the bottom divider all the way to one end and install a bulkhead down very low on the tank or even in the bottom glass (be careful though, bottom glass is often tempered) to supply the canister intake. Then have the canister return dump in on the high side (through another bulkhead in the tank side wall maybe?) and flow down to the gap in the false bottom and back to the canister. You'd want a pretty powerful canister filter though.

There are lots of things that can be played with and lots of variables to explore. It wouldn't have to be terribly expensive though. If you already have a 20 long or 40 breeder you could cobble together an effective system for under $100. As tanks get bigger the costs would increase, but given what some people spend on reef tanks, it would be a bargain in comparison.

If I was looking at small species, I’m sure a 40 G would work, but gold nuggets get to 9” or possibly more, depending on who you read.  I wouldn’t do less than a 75 G and 100 G or bigger would be better.  I don’t know enough about gyre pumps to know how to use them properly, but I will be doing some serious reading on these possibilities.  I have grave concerns about breeding goldies in a tank with only egg crate between fry/eggs, and a pump of any kind, though.

I'm suddenly wondering what the hubs would think of a 75 G as a room divider effect between kitchen and dining room.  Might make dinner convo a bit tricky with both of us getting half deaf with age.  😆 Our conversations already involve too many “What?”’s.  😂 🤣 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Odd Duck

[Fish Folk]

On 4/12/2022 at 3:38 PM, Odd Duck said:

I have grave concerns about breeding goldies in a tank with only egg crate between fry/eggs, and a pump of any kind, though.

Agree ^^

[gardenman]

You can use foam, fine grating/netting, cloth, etc. to keep the fish on the good side as long as it was small enough to prevent the fish from getting through, but porous enough to let the water through at a good rate. A wider opening and swath of foam could pretty much accomodate any water flow. 

[nabokovfan87]

I saw this.

 

[Fish Folk]

On 4/25/2022 at 5:15 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I saw this.

 

“Cortana, I’m going to need some Aquarium Info!”

 

[Ken Burke]

On 4/25/2022 at 8:22 AM, Fish Folk said:

“Cortana, I’m going to need some Aquarium Info!”

 

Oh!  Oh my.   Wow!

[Tihshho]

@Fish Folk I would strongly consider skipping a 4' tank for this and attempting it in a 6' like a 125. The reason I say that is because with a 6' tank you can create a very high flow at one end and at the other let it taper off so the plecos have the option of choosing which flow is right for them at the time. With that said too, in order to create the best water quality I would also consider a sump setup so you can have a higher overall volume of water to work with and when it comes to maintenance water changes and such can be done from the sump reducing as much 'hands in tank' time for a species that is known to be hard to breed in captivity. Having a sump will allow you to get additional dissolved O2 in the system which species that come from high flow waters will definitely benefit from. The other key to this is that there more than likely will need to be a dither species kept with the plecos, Eric Bodrock has talked about this to numerous clubs over the years and he has great success with many species.