Red Ludwigia Deficiency

[Mattlikesfish36]

I have really been struggling after transitioning from my old 20 high to a rimless tank. I have been battling algae and I am working on getting everything dialed in, but I think the shorter height of the new aquarium is causing the spike in algae because the light is more intense at the shallow depth. I have noticed my ludwigia is growing stunted and twisted. Most of the other plants are doing fairly well other than fighting off algae. Any ideas on what kind of deficiency is causing the ludwigia to grow like this? I am dosing pressurized co2 at 30ppm, Finnex planted plus light on 8 hours per day, and 2 pumps of easy green daily to keep nitrates between 10-30ppm. Any advice would be much appreciated. I am getting so frustrated with this new tank and wish I would have just kept everything in my old 20 high even though it wasn’t rimless. Thank you so much for any help you can offer. 

[Mmiller2001]

What source water are you using? What's the GH and KH? How many gallons is the tank?

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 4/5/2022 at 11:22 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

What source water are you using? What's the GH and KH? How many gallons is the tank?

@Mmiller2001 I need to buy test strips for GH and KH but I had a calcium test that a friend let me borrow out of curiosity. The calcium level in the aquarium was 80ppm if that’s helpful at all for knowing the water hardness. I am using tap water and it’s a 17 gallon tank. Thanks for your reply!

[Mmiller2001]

I would check with your water company and find out what the Ca and Mg concentration is. 

Twisting can be related the these 2 elements.

How many days do you does that amount of Easy Green and how large are your water changes?

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 4/5/2022 at 11:32 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

I would check with your water company and find out what the Ca and Mg concentration is. 

Twisting can be related the these 2 elements.

How many days do you does that amount of Easy Green and how large are your water changes?

@Mmiller2001sounds good. I can reach out to the county water authority and see if I can get information on that. What should my target range be for Ca and Mg? I am dosing easy green daily except for water change day. I am doing 50% weekly. Thanks!

[Mmiller2001]

If plants are the focus, anything 4:1 to 2:1 Ca:Mg. I would say 3dGH to around 6dGH would be ideal, but being higher works too. 

API has a GH and KH kit most box stores carry. Just FYI if you are eager to test.

What's the pH?

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 4/5/2022 at 11:48 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

If plants are the focus, anything 4:1 to 2:1 Ca:Mg. I would say 3dGH to around 6dGH would be ideal, but being higher works too. 

API has a GH and KH kit most box stores carry. Just FYI if you are eager to test.

@Mmiller2001great, I’ll swing by the store on my way home from work and see if I can find one of those kits. Thanks again for all of your help! 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Mattlikesfish36  What is the pH of your tank please?  I believe you many have an issue with insufficient available iron. -Roy

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 4/5/2022 at 3:11 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Mattlikesfish36  What is the pH of your tank please?  I believe you many have an issue with insufficient available iron. -Roy

@Seattle_Aquaristthanks for your comment! My pH is 7.8 out of the tap

[Mmiller2001]

On 4/5/2022 at 2:01 PM, Mattlikesfish36 said:

@Seattle_Aquaristthanks for your comment! My pH is 7.8 out of the tap

What is the pH at peak CO² injection?

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 4/5/2022 at 11:48 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

If plants are the focus, anything 4:1 to 2:1 Ca:Mg. I would say 3dGH to around 6dGH would be ideal, but being higher works too. 

API has a GH and KH kit most box stores carry. Just FYI if you are eager to test.

What's the pH?

@Mmiller2001i stopped at the store and grabbed some test strips. GH was 180 and KH was 80

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 4/5/2022 at 4:31 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

What is the pH at peak CO² injection?

@Mmiller2001just took a reading and it’s 6.4-6.6 on the API master test kit. It’s always tough for me to decipher the results on the color chart because the differences are so subtle 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 4/5/2022 at 2:38 PM, Mattlikesfish36 said:

@Mmiller2001just took a reading and it’s 6.4-6.6 on the API master test kit. It’s always tough for me to decipher the results on the color chart because the differences are so subtle 

Hi @Mattlikesfish36

What the arrows are pointing to in the picture below show interveinal chlorosis which is a fancy name for dark leaf veins with lighter interveinal (areas between leaf veins) in between the veins.  When this happens on older leaves on a plant it is typically caused by insufficient available magnesium.  When it happens on the newer leaves it is typically caused by insufficient available iron.  With your pH getting down to 6.4 - 6.6 during the day I would think that the EDTA chelated iron in Easy Green would be available to the plants but possibly it all precipitates out before the CO2 gets the pH sufficiently low to release the iron ions. 

If it were my tank this is what I would do.  Pick up a bottle of Seachem Iron which provides iron in a different form (ferrous gluconate).  Continue dosing all of your current nutrients exactly as you have been but add the Seachem Flourish Iron as indicated on the bottle 2X per week.  Watch the new leaves as they emerge, do not watch the existing leaves they will show little to no improvement.  Do the new leaves look healthier with little interveinal chlorosis?  You may also notice the green leaf plants looking greener as well.  Plant growth may increase since sufficient iron is necessary for photosynthesis which produces the sugars that plants need for growth.  Dose the Seachem Iron for two weeks and let us know how the new leaves looks and how things are progressing.  Hope this helps! -Roy

Edited April 5, 2022 by Seattle_Aquarist

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 4/5/2022 at 6:29 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Mattlikesfish36

What the arrows are pointing to in the picture below show interveinal chlorosis which is a fancy name for dark leaf veins with lighter interveinal (areas between leaf veins) in between the veins.  When this happens on older leaves on a plant it is typically caused by insufficient available magnesium.  When it happens on the newer leaves it is typically caused by insufficient available iron.  With your pH getting down to 6.4 - 6.6 during the day I would think that the EDTA chelated iron in Easy Green would be available to the plants but possibly it all precipitates out before the CO2 gets the pH sufficiently low to release the iron ions. 

If it were my tank this is what I would do.  Pick up a bottle of Seachem Iron which provides iron in a different form (ferrous gluconate).  Continue dosing all of your current nutrients exactly as you have been but add the Seachem Flourish Iron as indicated on the bottle 2X per week.  Watch the new leaves as they emerge, do not watch the existing leaves they will show little to no improvement.  Do the new leaves look healthier with little interveinal chlorosis?  You may also notice the green leaf plants looking greener as well.  Plant growth may increase since sufficient iron is necessary for photosynthesis which produces the sugars that plants need for growth.  Dose the Seachem Iron for two weeks and let us know how the new leaves looks and how things are progressing.  Hope this helps! -Roy

@Seattle_Aquaristwow thank you so much for typing all of that out! I have a jar of DPTA chelated iron fertilizer powder that was given to me by a friend a while ago, but based on what you’re saying it sounds like it would not be usable by the plants in my aquarium because of the pH. I’ll try to get out and grab a bottle of seachem iron and hopefully that will help! 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 4/5/2022 at 3:49 PM, Mattlikesfish36 said:

@Seattle_Aquaristwow thank you so much for typing all of that out! I have a jar of DPTA chelated iron fertilizer powder that was given to me by a friend a while ago, but based on what you’re saying it sounds like it would not be usable by the plants in my aquarium because of the pH. I’ll try to get out and grab a bottle of seachem iron and hopefully that will help! 

Hi @Mattlikesfish36

DPTA chelated iron is much better than ETDA chelated iron for pH levels above 6.8.  Before buying the Seachem Iron lets try the DPTA iron.  Add 1/8 teaspoon of the ETDA iron per 10 gallons 2X per week.  This will be the equivalent as dosing the Seachem Iron at their suggested dose.  Again, watch the new growth as it emerges and let us know how things progress.  We may have to adjust the dosage but that should get us in the ballpark if the issue is iron related.  Hope this helps! -Roy

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 4/5/2022 at 7:12 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Mattlikesfish36

DPTA chelated iron is much better than ETDA chelated iron for pH levels above 6.8.  Before buying the Seachem Iron lets try the DPTA iron.  Add 1/8 teaspoon of the ETDA iron per 10 gallons 2X per week.  This will be the equivalent as dosing the Seachem Iron at their suggested dose.  Again, watch the new growth as it emerges and let us know how things progress.  We may have to adjust the dosage but that should get us in the ballpark if the issue is iron related.  Hope this helps! -Roy

@Seattle_Aquaristthanks so much! I’ll start dosing the iron and see how it goes. Here is the product that I have. 
https://greenleafaquariums.com/products/dtpa-chelated-iron-0-5lb-jar.html

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 4/5/2022 at 4:24 PM, Mattlikesfish36 said:

@Seattle_Aquaristthanks so much! I’ll start dosing the iron and see how it goes. Here is the product that I have. 
https://greenleafaquariums.com/products/dtpa-chelated-iron-0-5lb-jar.html

That should work fine, let's see what happens.  -Roy

[Mmiller2001]

I will add my "if this was my tank" information. 

I would do everything that @Seattle_Aquaristis saying but I would drop my Easy Green dosing down and dose the DPTA to make up the difference. 

So the tank is 17 gallons but true gallons is lower. Let's just use 15 gallons for simplification. 

You dose 2 pumps every day, that's 14 pumps. At 10 gallons, that's 6ppm NO3x7days=42ppm NO3 as Proxy

If the tank was 20 gallons, 3ppm NO3x7days=21ppm NO3 as Proxy.

So you are somewhere in-between but assuming 15 gallons you are around 30ppm NO3 as Proxy. When we do 50% water changes, the tank will only have 2x the amount we dose. This is called an accumulation total. So your accumulation total is 60ppm (as Proxy) and this is way too much. Now plants pull and fish add NO3 to the tank, but the 60ppm is the reference number. I would drop your dosing by half and ideally I would only dose 10-15ppm NO3 as proxy per week. This would give an accumulation total of 20-30ppm NO3 as proxy.

 4 pumps per week seems reasonable. I would also only dose during peak CO2 to take advantage of the lower pH. Now for Iron, dosing Easy Green will give you around .13ppm Fe and I would use the DPTA at .4ppm Fe. Is your DPTA iron 11% DPTA? If so, I would dose 2x.2ppm, that's 1/64tsp twice a week. This will give you a total .53ppm Fe (weekly) or a bit less due to the EDTA chelate. We don't think of accumulation total with Micros.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 4/5/2022 at 7:56 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

I will add my "if this was my tank" information. 

I would do everything that @Seattle_Aquaristis saying but I would drop my Easy Green dosing down and dose the DPTA to make up the difference. 

So the tank is 17 gallons but true gallons is lower. Let's just use 15 gallons for simplification. 

You dose 2 pumps every day, that's 14 pumps. At 10 gallons, that's 6ppm NO3x7days=42ppm NO3 as Proxy

If the tank was 20 gallons, 3ppm NO3x7days=21ppm NO3 as Proxy.

So you are somewhere in-between but assuming 15 gallons you are around 30ppm NO3 as Proxy. When we do 50% water changes, the tank will only have 2x the amount we dose. This is called an accumulation total. So your accumulation total is 60ppm (as Proxy) and this is way too much. Now plants pull and fish add NO3 to the tank, but the 60ppm is the reference number. I would drop your dosing by half and ideally I would only dose 10-15ppm NO3 as proxy per week. This would give an accumulation total of 20-30ppm NO3 as proxy.

 4 pumps per week seems reasonable. I would also only dose during peak CO2 to take advantage of the lower pH. Now for Iron, dosing Easy Green will give you around .13ppm Fe and I would use the DPTA at .4ppm Fe. Is your DPTA iron 11% DPTA? If so, I would dose 2x.2ppm, that's 1/64tsp twice a week. This will give you a total .53ppm Fe (weekly). We don't think of accumulation total with Micros.

@Mmiller2001I can’t thank you enough for all of this information. I’m a little confused about the “proxy” wording, but the information you are giving seems to make sense. I’ll give your recommendations a shot and see how it goes. Thank you again! I really appreciate all of your advice 

[Mmiller2001]

Proxy is used when dosing more than 1 element. Easy green contains many things, so we choose 1 of them for the calculation (that's the proxy).

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 4/5/2022 at 8:14 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Proxy is used when dosing more than 1 element. Easy green contains many things, so we choose 1 of them for the calculation (that's the proxy).

@Mmiller2001ahh I see. Now that makes sense. Wouldn’t the tank have half the amount of nitrogen after a 50% water change? I’m confused about how it doubles to 60ppm if water is being removed from the aquarium. I may just be overthinking though… I tend to do that 

[Mmiller2001]

Because you are dosing the same total per week. if you dose 10ppm a week, change half, you now have 5ppm. Dose another 10 and another water change, you now have 17.5ppm. So on and so forth. You will always approach 2x the dose and never exceed because you do 50% water changes.

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 4/5/2022 at 8:21 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Because you are dosing the same total per week. if you dose 10ppm a week, change half, you now have 5ppm. Dose another 10 and another water change, you now have 17.5ppm. So on and so forth. You will always approach 2x the dose and never exceed because you do 50% water changes.

@Mmiller2001now that makes sense. Thanks for breaking that down and explaining! 

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 4/5/2022 at 7:37 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

That should work fine, let's see what happens.  -Roy

@Seattle_Aquarist one last question before I start dosing the DTPA iron. Am I better off dosing when the water is at 7.8 before the co2 turns on, or should I dose when the pH is at its lowest during peak co2 concentration? Thanks!

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 4/6/2022 at 6:36 AM, Mattlikesfish36 said:

@Seattle_Aquarist one last question before I start dosing the DTPA iron. Am I better off dosing when the water is at 7.8 before the co2 turns on, or should I dose when the pH is at its lowest during peak co2 concentration? Thanks!

Hi @Mattlikesfish36

If we look at the chart above we see that the bond between the DTPA chelate molecule and the iron molecule is the easiest to "break" (and make the iron available to the plants) when the pH is below 6.8 - 7.0 so that is when I would dose.  -Roy