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Are we doing something wrong? Fish keep dying...


Chris2022
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Hi Folks, 

My daughter and I have started this tank and have been watching it carefully. We began by adding otos to help with the brown diatoms but that was a mistake. They all got ich and most of them died. We were pretty heartbroken about it. We waited a while and decided to add more fish. Endlers livebearers were recommended. we bought 6 this past Friday, 2 died Saturday night, and another one died this morning. We've been watching them closely... making sure they are eating and swimming ok, however fish are still dying. The common denominator is us. What are we doing wrong? I don't want this to continue. I doesn't look like the fish are sick. I purchased a quarantine tank and I am going to start using the co-op's recommended quarantine methods and chemicals for all new fish but I can't help but think, there is something I am doing incorrectly. 

Tank 20 gal ( ~10 weeks old) Stock ( 2 oto's, 3 endlers, 5-? blue shrimps)

  • pH (7.6 - 7.8)
  • NH3/NH4+ (0 ppm)
  • NO2- (0 ppm)
  • NO3 (10-20 ppm)

IMG_1298.jpg

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It might not be anything you're doing wrong. From what I understand, otos are sensitive and a lot of times come into LFSs in rather bad shape. How did you acclimate the endlers? Did you buy them from a LFS? Maybe you can let the store know what happened and take a water sample to them to test to see what readings they get? 

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On 3/22/2022 at 2:34 PM, Guppysnail said:

Are you using an airstone or sponge filter?  What type of filter?  I do not see a lot of surface agitation (bad eyes could just be me) they may need more dissolved oxygen. Forgive me if I just can’t see it. 

I think I see a sponge filter behind the left 'wood'. But it is hiding for sure.

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loosing 4 of 6 otos is really sad but also fairly common.  😞  They are 99.99% wild caught and won't take normal fish food usually so they come stressed and starved and moved between several holding facilities. 

 

do you have any idea of your water hardness (KH,GH)?  are you on a well?  mountain runoff?  Could be the endlers were raised in water that was very different from yours. 

Also, from what I can see the one oto in the photo looks in good condition so I bet it'll make it.

image.png.6f8533dc54af295a20f999378a18ac0e.png

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Just chiming in to say please don't give up! I had similar stats when I started out with livebearers (June 2021, not that long ago!) and it was heartbreaking but once I got "over the hump" I've had good results and you can get there, too. You've got plants in there which is a real help.

I would advise not adding any new fish right now and waiting to see if the tank settles down and everyone left stays alive. Having a QT tank is a great next step. In addition to protecting the fish in your main tank, I think it just feels less depressing if a fish doesn't make it out of QT rather than dies in your "happy home" tank. I can see you put a lot of thought into making your tank great for fish, so it's that much more distressing when it feels like it's not working.

I started out giving everyone the co-op med trio, and now I feed them for a few days, give them the antibiotics only if they look or act sick, and give them two rounds of dewormer over the course of a few weeks before they go into my tanks. Your mileage may vary and you will find a method that feels safe and effective for you.

Hang in there--it will get better!

 

 

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On 3/22/2022 at 10:42 AM, Jennifer V said:

It might not be anything you're doing wrong. From what I understand, otos are sensitive and a lot of times come into LFSs in rather bad shape. How did you acclimate the endlers? Did you buy them from a LFS? Maybe you can let the store know what happened and take a water sample to them to test to see what readings they get? 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:27 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

How old is the tank?

How did you acclimate the fish?

What is the tank temperature?

 

Hi. The tank is 10 weeks old, temp at 80F. we bought the endlers from a LFS. We acclimated the endlers in the water for 15 min dip at tank temp, followed by adding tank water to the bag x2 for 7 min, then adding them to the tank. I will def try taking a water sample to the shop. 

 

 

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On 3/22/2022 at 12:34 PM, Guppysnail said:

Are you using an airstone or sponge filter?  What type of filter?  I do not see a lot of surface agitation (bad eyes could just be me) they may need more dissolved oxygen. Forgive me if I just can’t see it. 

On 3/22/2022 at 12:54 PM, Katherine said:

I think I see a sponge filter behind the left 'wood'. But it is hiding for sure.

Ha, Yeah I have a sponge filter with an airstone. I hid it behind the wood. There's plenty of bubbles but you cant see them bc of the tank frame.

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On 3/22/2022 at 2:07 PM, Colu said:

What your kH and do you use a dechlorinator like prime when doing water changes

On 3/22/2022 at 4:37 PM, CT_ said:

loosing 4 of 6 otos is really sad but also fairly common.  😞  They are 99.99% wild caught and won't take normal fish food usually so they come stressed and starved and moved between several holding facilities. 

 

do you have any idea of your water hardness (KH,GH)?  are you on a well?  mountain runoff?  Could be the endlers were raised in water that was very different from yours. 

Also, from what I can see the one oto in the photo looks in good condition so I bet it'll make it.

image.png.6f8533dc54af295a20f999378a18ac0e.png

I haven't measured my KH or GH. We are on municipal water that comes from mountain runoff.  I do use dechlorinator when I do water changes.

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You should measure the GH/KH so you know what it is, and also compare it to that of the store you got the fish from. If they're significantly different, that can be an explanation for the losses, and may require a different acclimation process going forward.

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On 3/23/2022 at 4:15 AM, quikv6 said:

You should measure the GH/KH so you know what it is, and also compare it to that of the store you got the fish from. If they're significantly different, that can be an explanation for the losses, and may require a different acclimation process going forward.

That was my thought too. 

@Chris2022 you can get a gh/kh kit online very easily so you can test your water. Have all of your parameters ready when you talk to your LFS so they can compare to what theirs are. Try not to get too discouraged or beat yourself up. You'll get this! 

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I know you are getting a lot of good advice which I hope helps, but I will just add - don't give up.  We had a rough start about 3 years ago with our first tank, even though we felt like we were doing everything right.  It took a while for us to feel confident in knowing how/when to medicate, and sometimes I just think its hit or miss with how healthy the LFS fish are too (and my LFS does not quarantine before selling.) Keep doing what you're doing, and just know that things will stabilize.

We learned to wait a couple months before letting the kids name them, hahaha...  🤣  

Edited by Sal
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On 3/22/2022 at 7:52 PM, Chris2022 said:

I haven't measured my KH or GH. We are on municipal water that comes from mountain runoff.  I do use dechlorinator when I do water changes.

I would not worry about KH or GH, if your pH stays close to the same you are good. The last thing you want to do is go buy crap to raise of lower that then feel like you must adjust all the time. That is no fun! As long as pH is 6.5 to 8.5 you are fine. 

I would put one more sponge filter in and wait a couple weeks then try again just in case you have bad bacteria from not enough biofilter. 

I do agree however that you never know what you are getting at the local store. I always ask how long they have had them before I buy. I love it when they say something like 2 weeks or more. The longer the better. If they just got them in they will be stressed badly then you buy them and they get hit again. I once bought a larger Hillstream Loach that died over night. Then, I took it back they gave me another that went south in the parking lot before I left! It was upside down! I took it back and they put it back in the tank. They said it died too, all of them did they bought from that batch. 

Do you ever see anything on the dead fish like spots on the last fish you got? Obviously the first ones had ick from the store. 

Also, it makes me wonder if there is something in the water from the decor or gravel. I think you should do a couple of large water changes to be safe, say 90% or more. It's just so easy to do on a small tank not to. 

Oh also, you are going overboard on acclimation. The pros (and me) will float the bag to get the temp right (about 20 minutes) then open the bag and right away pour the fish into a net over a bucket then put them in the tank. Never put the stores water in yours. 

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On 3/23/2022 at 3:15 AM, quikv6 said:

You should measure the GH/KH so you know what it is, and also compare it to that of the store you got the fish from. If they're significantly different, that can be an explanation for the losses, and may require a different acclimation process going forward.

On 3/23/2022 at 8:14 AM, Jennifer V said:

That was my thought too. 

@Chris2022 you can get a gh/kh kit online very easily so you can test your water. Have all of your parameters ready when you talk to your LFS so they can compare to what theirs are. Try not to get too discouraged or beat yourself up. You'll get this! 

Gotcha! I purchased an API GH/KH kit online, should be here by friday. How much different is the acclimation process if the GH/KH vary? Thank your encouragement ! Its appreciated! 😃 

On 3/23/2022 at 8:21 AM, Sal said:

I know you are getting a lot of good advice which I hope helps, but I will just add - don't give up.  We had a rough start about 3 years ago with our first tank, even though we felt like we were doing everything right.  It took a while for us to feel confident in knowing how/when to medicate, and sometimes I just think its hit or miss with how healthy the LFS fish are too (and my LFS does not quarantine before selling.) Keep doing what you're doing, and just know that things will stabilize.

We learned to wait a couple months before letting the kids name them, hahaha...  🤣  

Thank you! Def. not letting her name any just yet. 

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On 3/23/2022 at 9:09 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

As long as pH is 6.5 to 8.5 you are fine. 

Yeah the pH has always been very consistent. 

On 3/23/2022 at 9:09 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

I would put one more sponge filter

The sponge filter is rated for tanks up to 40 gal. That why I hid it behind the wood bc it was pretty big.

On 3/23/2022 at 9:09 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

Do you ever see anything on the dead fish like spots on the last fish you got?

No spots or any tell-tale signs...

On 3/23/2022 at 9:09 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

Also, it makes me wonder if there is something in the water from the decor or gravel. I think you should do a couple of large water changes to be safe, say 90% or more. It's just so easy to do on a small tank not to. 

Oh also, you are going overboard on acclimation. The pros (and me) will float the bag to get the temp right (about 20 minutes) then open the bag and right away pour the fish into a net over a bucket then put them in the tank. Never put the stores water in yours. 

I did several water changes after the ick incident. I've been watching the parameters closely. I am guilty of pouring the aquarium water into our tank... crap! I didnt even think of that. I'll definitely stop doing that. Thank you for pointing that out.

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On 3/22/2022 at 10:23 AM, Chris2022 said:

Hi Folks, 

My daughter and I have started this tank and have been watching it carefully. We began by adding otos to help with the brown diatoms but that was a mistake. They all got ich and most of them died. We were pretty heartbroken about it. We waited a while and decided to add more fish. Endlers livebearers were recommended. we bought 6 this past Friday, 2 died Saturday night, and another one died this morning. We've been watching them closely... making sure they are eating and swimming ok, however fish are still dying. The common denominator is us. What are we doing wrong? I don't want this to continue. I doesn't look like the fish are sick. I purchased a quarantine tank and I am going to start using the co-op's recommended quarantine methods and chemicals for all new fish but I can't help but think, there is something I am doing incorrectly. 

Tank 20 gal ( ~10 weeks old) Stock ( 2 oto's, 3 endlers, 5-? blue shrimps)

  • pH (7.6 - 7.8)
  • NH3/NH4+ (0 ppm)
  • NO2- (0 ppm)
  • NO3 (10-20 ppm)

 

Just FYI, Otos are not "beginner" fish. They need very clean water. 

Endlers though I think are supposed to be "easy".

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I feel it's important to know your GH and KH. The more you know about your water the better.

When I was new to the hobby, I decided on the fish I wanted to start with, like everyone always suggests. (I picked Mollies and Platies) I knew nothing of my water, but everyone also says not to chase parameters, and that the fish will adjust. So I got the fish, and they did very poorly.

As it turns out, my water was as soft (very low GH) as can be, with almost no KH either. Needless to say, I could see the fish struggling. I lost one, sadly.

It was not until I tested my GH/KH that I realized what was "wrong." With no KH, I had the PH swing/crash. I immediately started doctoring my water, bringing up the GH/KH, and in turn....PH. The fish responded extremely positively. It was instantly noticeable, even to a beginner. Since then, I "doctor" my water, and do my best to create a good, stable environment for the fish I have.

So when folks say not to worry about GH or KH....I would say you may not need to worry about them, but you don't know until you know what they are.

I will also echo what others have said: Stay positive, learn, do your best to relax, and things will fall into place, yielding true enjoyment and appreciation.

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