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A Calcium Conundrum


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Hi everyone!

This is my first time doing aquatic plants, and I am stumped!!

I have a lot of experience with fish and terrestrial plants, but never aquatic, so when I set up my new tanks I decided to give it a try.

I just started almost a month ago with a bunch of anubis and one other type I forgot the name of.

Last week the leaves started curling, in terrestrial plants that means low calcium, so I added a couple Wonder Shells. The new leaves coming in looked okish, so I didn't worry too much more about it.

I added a tiger lily and a bunch of stem plants Thursday of last week, along with some Aquarium Co-Op fertilizer tablets, and yesterday I noticed that EVERYTHING'S leaves are starting to curl!

I was a little miffed that apparently the Wonder shell wasn't working, so I bought some Equilibrium.

But before I added it, I wanted to test the GH and KH so I didn't over do it because I have ropefish and several of my breeding stock of mystery snails in the tank.

My GH is 429ppm (!!) and my KH is 35.8ppm. 

So obviously the Wonder shell *is* working, which then leads me to ask what is causing every single plant's leaves in the aquarium to curl??

Also, is that high of a GH going to hurt the ropefish? 

Additional information: I had cut back on ferts to half strength, once a week due to algea. But this week after I added the extra plants I brought it back up to the recommended dose.

Thanks in advance for any advice and assistance, I really am stumped.

Edited by TheLoreleiAquatics
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On 3/15/2022 at 4:50 PM, TheLoreleiAquatics said:

Hi everyone!

This is my first time doing aquatic plants, and I am stumped!!

I have a lot of experience with fish and terrestrial plants, but never aquatic, so when I set up my new tanks I decided to give it a try.

I just started almost a month ago with a bunch of anubis and one other type I forgot the name of.

Last week the leaves started curling, in terrestrial plants that means low calcium, so I added a couple Wonder Shells. The new leaves coming in looked okish, so I didn't worry too much more about it.

I added a tiger lily and a bunch of stem plants Thursday of last week, along with some Aquarium Co-Op fertilizer tablets, and yesterday I noticed that EVERYTHING'S leaves are starting to curl!

I was a little miffed that apparently the Wonder shell wasn't working, so I bought some Equilibrium.

But before I added it, I wanted to test the GH and KH so I didn't over do it because I have ropefish and several of my breeding stock of mystery snails in the tank.

My GH is 429ppm (!!) and my KH is 35.8ppm. 

So obviously the Wonder shell *is* working, which then leads me to ask what is causing every single plant's leaves in the aquarium to curl??

Also, is that high of a GH going to hurt the ropefish? 

Additional information: I had cut back on ferts to half strength, once a week due to algea. But this week after I added the extra plants I brought it back up to the recommended dose.

Thanks in advance for any advice and assistance, I really am stumped.

Hi @TheLoreleiAquatics

WOW!  You are fortunate that the fish did not show some signs of distress with that high a dKH and dGH.  Removing the Wonder Shells and doing regular water changes several times a week should get you back to tap water parameters.

Pictures always help if you could post some please.  A couple of things you should know about aquatic plants, many species including Anubias and some stem plants are grown in plant nurseries emerged (out of water) to minimize algae, pests, and in some cases more rapid growth.  Because they are grown emerged the leaves have a thick cuticle layer to minimize loss of moisture (transpiration).  Unfortunately the thick cuticle layer prevents those leaves from 'breathing' (absorbing CO2) under water effectively.  The leaves that were grown emerged will eventually die, the nutrients in those leaves will be re-absorbed by the plant, and used for new leaf growth which has little to no cuticle layer and can function under water.  What I am saying is "don't look at the leaves that were existing when you got the plants", instead look at the new leaves as they emerge and mature to judge how healthy you plants are.

There are several conditions that can cause leaves to "curl" and insufficient available calcium is certainly one of them.  Typically if it is a calcium related issue the leaf tips of the new leaves will be 'hooked' downward.  Then there is "cupping" where the leaf margins on recently matured or older leaves will either curl upward or downward looking somewhat like a cup.  This is typically caused by a micro-nutrient issue.  Then there is 'curling' where leave margins will curl upward or downward with a puckering effect, this is typically a magnesium related issue.  Hope this helps! -Roy

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On 3/16/2022 at 8:27 AM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

this is typically a magnesium related issue.

Doesn't wondershell also have magnesium in it? 

Should I have skipped the wonder shell completely and just used Equilibrium?

My tap water is on the softer side, and the nitrifying bacteria use up the KH pretty quickly, and I had been assuming that the plants had been using up the naturally occurring GH (calcium, magnesium) quickly as well due to the curling).

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On 3/16/2022 at 6:27 AM, TheLoreleiAquatics said:

https://imgur.com/a/rhf9MiP

Here are some pictures, the anubis and the leafy ones are over a month in the tank. The stems and the one in the last photo are less than a week in the tank.

Hi @TheLoreleiAquatics  The newest leaves on the stems look good which are the ones that likely have emerged since they were planted in your tank.  Let's give the Anubias sufficient time to unfold that leaf before passing judgement.

What size tank? What are you dosing for nutrients?  How much? How often?

Do you know any water parameters besides tank dKH and dGH for example:

pH
dKH of tap water
dGH of tap water
nitrates (ppm)

Lastly are those pieces of shell scattered on the surface of your white sand?   -Roy

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Have the plants already transitioned for being grow emersed(grow out water) to immersed(under water). Plants can and will go through changes  dropping leaves. Change leaf shape. Cory has some youtube videos on this subject. I would try to watch them or other videos dealing with aquatic plant conversion. I think that is part of what is going on. Some of my plants grow in basically liquid rock because my well is. Some tank I have to soften the water and lower ph I don’t see much difference. I don’t have much calcium I have to add it normally with the shells for the snails not the plants so much. Like you I can grow land plants. I have a degree in agronomy. I have the most basic plants mostly because most aquatic plants do everything slow compared to land plants. Again try to watch Cory’s videos on plant conversion. If you can find them let me know in I’ll find some for you.

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It is a 55 gallon tank, I gave nutes 5 pumps of easy green twice a week for the first week and a half, then I reduced it to 3 pumps after water changes x2 a week when the algea got crazy.

My lights were 8 hours straight the first week, then I reduced to 3 hours on, 4 hours off, 3 hours on. I started noticing the algea reducing, so I increased the light to 4 hours on, 3 hours off, 4 hours on late last week

My pH straight from the tap sit a little below 7 and usually dips to 6.8 after 24 hours in the tank.

Tap water is dGH: 3-4 and dKH: 2, so pretty soft. There are no nitrates in the tap, but there are .25pom ammonia after declorinatation.

Tank parameters: 0 ammonia 0 nitrites 20 nitrates, which means I missed food when I cleaned up after feeding the snails last night

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On 3/16/2022 at 10:04 AM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Lastly are those pieces of shell scattered on the surface of your white sand? 

They are some crushed coral I had added to try to stabilize the KH and prevent pH crashes. I bought a big bag for my axolotl's canister filter and had a little bit left over, but not enough to make a difference apparently as my dKH is still at 2 in the tank.

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@Brandon p I have watched Cory's videos ❤️

Because the anubis and the-nameless-leafy-plants were already transitioned to immersed by my LFS, that lead me to believe it was a deficiency.

Which, my water's dGH was 3 before the wonder shell, so it very well could have started out as a calcium deficiency. But I don't feel like that explains what's happening now and what's happening to the stem plants.

I do know that some of the stem plants I bought were grown emmersed, so the transition might be the cause, but not all of them. 

I just don't want to kill everything  😂

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On 3/16/2022 at 7:35 AM, TheLoreleiAquatics said:

They are some crushed coral I had added to try to stabilize the KH and prevent pH crashes. I bought a big bag for my axolotl's canister filter and had a little bit left over, but not enough to make a difference apparently as my dKH is still at 2 in the tank.

Hi @TheLoreleiAquatics

What leads you to believe they were already transitioned?  You see how fast they have grown in one week so that would mean those stems were at the LFS for 8+ weeks which is not likely.  Your water parameters out of the tap are not bad, I live in Seattle and our water has about the same parameters and all I do (besides macro and micro fertilizers) is add 1/2 teaspoon of calcium sulfate (CaSO4) to add 7 ppm of calcium to my water per 10 gallons and 1/4 teaspoon of magnesium sulfate (MgSO4*7H2O / Epsom Salt) per 10 gallons to add about 3.3 ppm of magnesium.  That way I avoid those deficiencies.  The result of dosing those amounts is an increase of about 2.2 dGH and does not add any carbonates that effect pH and dKH.  If you can remove / siphon off the crushed coral it will be easier to maintain a stable pH.  As shells and coral (both calcium carbonate) dissolve they increase the pH and the dKH.

The stem plant Anacharis was likely grown submerged, it is the greener of the stems in the picture.  It is a cooler water plant but may adapt to a tropical tank if it isn't too warm.  The other stem where most of the bottom leaves have died looks like either a Rotala or Ludwigia and was likely grown emerged.  -Roy

10 gallon low tech (no CO2) with low light (PAR@40)
2028268119_2013-10-1710Gallon001CroppedAdjSnSm.jpg.e1f608533e42ff7bd0cfb0ff8a32a6ee.jpg

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@Seattle_Aquarist, I guess I am assuming they were transitioned because they were at the LFS for a few months. I don't really know how long the transitioning process is though 😂

The stems were not from the LFS, those were an internet deal I found, $20/30 stems from 8 different species. So I don't know how those were grown, could be any way.

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I  totally get not wanting to kill plants and I have a plant body count. On many I pulled them to earlier and would have had less plants on my count. I’m not sure where you got your plants but some of the plant take up to 8 months and as little as two month. To have shock taking up room for 2 two 8 month I don’t see many doing a true con conversion. Cory says they start to convert the ghetto coded “we try our best to convert the plants” most LFs don’t have the room to do this. I Jabe. A LFS that I have turn a business relationship into a personal friendship does sell plants but tries not to because converting can suck. I have seen the farm. Kim’s that say they have been converted at the grower and some plants may have been under water but then can’t hold stock for months. Do do think some of the best LFS do there best But that are very few. Think of the space needed to do this. I’m am not say there is no other issues as well. Have you tried CO2? I made my know with coke bottles and that helped but you have need to have  the CO2 counter.. you are they ing if you end you have a problem Amazon sword is hard. The kill. I are trying they the others I would not check everynight I would do it once a month. Reactions and breaking minerals down doesn’t normally happen over night and once breaking them down it takes longer for the plant to uptake. N nitrogen often need the bacteria to break it down for the plants to use. I think you will succeed even if you lose a plant or two keep trying 

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@Brandon p strangely enough, I did get a Red Flame Amazon Sword when I got all the anubises and other leafy plants because it was on sale, and it is actually doing great 😂🤣

It has grown 2 new leaves since I put it in there and doesn't have any of the curling leaf issues, lmao. It's doing the best out of all the plants in the whole tank!

I did try a DIY C02 with a couple milk jugs and a gelatin, sugar, water, and yeast mix that a Youtuber I follow uses, but I couldn't get it to pressurize and come out of the diffuser. I think the seals on the mill jugs were leaky.

I'm thinking of waiting until the Co-Op's CO2 regulator comes out and then getting a little used CO2 tank and giving it a try with a real set up. People sell used tanks in my area for $30-$50, so I could probably do a beginner's set up for under $200.

I need to make sure I can keep plants alive first 😂

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Even with the coke bottles is a hard game to get the mix. I could get it thought most diffusers but I both two that it would not come of those 2 but it came out out of other ones I had. I tried to short cut and didn’t have the Bubble counter and I was getting to much CO2. I have one now 

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I’m always tring new things. I used yeast and sugar in the 16 oz water bottles that worked well. When I moved up to the 2 liter bottles I used the sugar and yeast when tried  bungee and backing soda. The sugar and yeast I think works best. There are other regulars that work, I understand loyalty,and I won’t say which One I would use but this is from Amazon and has several thread adapters to use smal or large bottles. I would buy a regulator instead of dyi. Dyi is fun and you learn how things work but there is more dangerous and or messy and hit or mess on working.


FZONE Aquarium CO2 Regulator Mini Series V3.0 Dual Stage with DC Solenoid and Bubble Counter Check Valve Compatible Paintball Tank CGA320 CO2 Cylinder https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08P5FKQDT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_4VJBSF01VCN28MCSC7V6?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

 

if you can afford it I would buy a nice regulator and have a got professional set u. One less thing to go wrong 

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