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Can I use a sump without drilling my tank?


Lifeisgood
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I have been trying to use HOB filters for 125–but would like to try a sump.  Since the tank is already in use I don’t want to drill it. I have an extra 10 gallon and a 29 gallon tank to use.  Would either size work?

Also, I wonder if any of you could suggest a favorite design for intake and output tubes.  There are YTube videos—but what have any of you used and would suggest?  Thank you in advance for any suggestions!😊

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There are designs for permanent siphons.  I have one on a small tank by my sink that works well, but I'd always be afraid of having it running 24/7 if it fails.  There are ways to make it more robust though. 

 

I'd say if the sump volume is bigger than the HOB you have thats working then the sump will be fine too.  I think on one hand bigger is better but also sufficient is sufficient, so i guess do what makes you happy there.

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You can also just use canister attachments for the sump it works the same I’ve always liked using modified rainbars or DIY ones (is it even DIY if you just drill holes in a pipe?). There are so many sump configurations to choose from the world is your oyster

If you use a 10 gallon you can get glass panes at home depot that are the exact width of a 10 gallon with no cuts to make your baffles if that’s the type of sump you want. Just silicone them in. I was lazy once and skipped that step and my baffles leaked profusely.

 

Edited by Biotope Biologist
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On 3/10/2022 at 9:15 PM, Lifeisgood said:

I have been trying to use HOB filters for 125–but would like to try a sump.  Since the tank is already in use I don’t want to drill it. I have an extra 10 gallon and a 29 gallon tank to use.  Would either size work?

Also, I wonder if any of you could suggest a favorite design for intake and output tubes.  There are YTube videos—but what have any of you used and would suggest?  Thank you in advance for any suggestions!😊

I would never try it unless the intake was high enough to run dry before flooding!! I can't think of any way to do this and make it reliable and safe really. You can't have an 'overflow'.

If I were you I think I would shop for a large canister filter.  

I went from a Tidal 110 to a Cascade 1000. The cascade isn't a lot bigger but it flows way better and the foam stays put better. 

Edited by Wrencher_Scott
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I agree that a canister filter is probably a better idea.

If you use a sump, you must have enough extra volume in the sump to hold all the water that would be siphoned into the sump if the power goes out and your return pump stops pumping.

If your 125 gallon tank is 72 inches X 18 inches like mine, one inch of water in the tank is 5.61 gallons, but really a little less because we should be using inside measurements of the tank instead of outside measurements, so let's say 5.5 gallons per inch of water.

If you have your siphon one inch below the water level, you need 5.5 gallons of space in the sump. If you have a 10-gallon sump, that is going to be the smallest sump of all time. Also, having the siphon only one inch below the water line would require very close monitoring of the water level. If the water line gets below the siphon, your return pump burns up.

If you have the siphon 2 inches below the water line, you need 11 gallons of spare space in the sump. Add a safety factor of one gallon and let's say 12 gallons. If you use the 29-gallon tank as a sump, that leaves 17 gallons of sump volume, but you have to subtract the return pump section and the mechanical filtration section (if you think you need one) to get the volume for filter media.

I would like to see you do it just to see how it works out.

But I would use a canister or two, and/or an under-gravel filter

 

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So...  I'm going to echo what the last two posts have said - seems like going canister might be better in this case.  I know there are "siphon overflows" both commercial and DIY, but those two words shouldn't be used together as a long term plan.  I'm less concerned about flooding the sump (although a 10gal for a 125 would be risky at best, in my experience).  I'd be more worried about the siphon breaking, resulting in the entire volume of the sump being put into the tank and potentially overflowing the display.  You can calculate for that so your overflow sits low enough that the tank won't flood, but then you end up with a dry sump, and if your heater is in the sump there is a fire danger there.  It just has a number of risks that would make me nervous.  Good sump design is based on the concepts of guard rails, fail safes, and backups.  It stems from the idea that every piece of equipment in your tank will fail, it's just a matter of planning for it. 

All that said, if you end up drilling the tank, sumps are absolutely the way to go!!! 

Been a rough couple of days for me.  I dislike canisters and love sumps, but I've recommended canisters to two people in as many days.  All while I am working on a giant sump, and drilling tanks for overflows.  Ugh.  What's become of me?! 

 

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Ok so not sure how easy it would be/how well it would work but technically I think one option you could consider is an above tank sump? So the water is pumped into the sump above, flows through it then overflows back into the tank - meaning the sump tank would be drilled instead of the display tank? Kind of like a giant hang on back, except it would need a big shelf or cabinet or something above the main tank instead of below which isn't as easy to install/hide. 

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On 3/11/2022 at 11:50 AM, Wrencher_Scott said:

I would never try it unless the intake was high enough to run dry before flooding!! I can't think of any way to do this and make it reliable and safe really. You can't have an 'overflow'.

If I were you I think I would shop for a large canister filter.  

I went from a Tidal 110 to a Cascade 1000. The cascade isn't a lot bigger but it flows way better and the foam stays put better. 

I am hearing the cautions on this idea—and I appreciate them!  How often are you finding you need to maintenance it? How long does it take you to do it?

My tank is overstocked with juvenile Hillstream loaches right now—but when I have the nerve to catch out a bunch—hopefully there won’t be such a burden on filtration and need for water changes.

On 3/11/2022 at 1:46 PM, KentFishFanUK said:

Ok so not sure how easy it would be/how well it would work but technically I think one option you could consider is an above tank sump? So the water is pumped into the sump above, flows through it then overflows back into the tank - meaning the sump tank would be drilled instead of the display tank? Kind of like a giant hang on back, except it would need a big shelf or cabinet or something above the main tank instead of below which isn't as easy to install/hide. 

Love the out of the box thinking!😁  I even thought of a horizontal black three inch PVC tube with some kind of filter media in it—that could be taken off and power blasted with water every six months or so.🤷‍♀️

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On 3/11/2022 at 1:37 PM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

So...  I'm going to echo what the last two posts have said - seems like going canister might be better in this case.  I know there are "siphon overflows" both commercial and DIY, but those two words shouldn't be used together as a long term plan.  I'm less concerned about flooding the sump (although a 10gal for a 125 would be risky at best, in my experience).  I'd be more worried about the siphon breaking, resulting in the entire volume of the sump being put into the tank and potentially overflowing the display.  You can calculate for that so your overflow sits low enough that the tank won't flood, but then you end up with a dry sump, and if your heater is in the sump there is a fire danger there.  It just has a number of risks that would make me nervous.  Good sump design is based on the concepts of guard rails, fail safes, and backups.  It stems from the idea that every piece of equipment in your tank will fail, it's just a matter of planning for it. 

All that said, if you end up drilling the tank, sumps are absolutely the way to go!!! 

Been a rough couple of days for me.  I dislike canisters and love sumps, but I've recommended canisters to two people in as many days.  All while I am working on a giant sump, and drilling tanks for overflows.  Ugh.  What's become of me?! 

 

Thank you for the great advice—even though it has come at the cost of personal angst!😂

Really, if something did fail—it would have bad consequences on the wood floor and on my husband’s patience level for indulging my fishy habits!😅

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It would depend on the design of the sump, but in the event of a failure of the siphon/overflow, with most designs the entire capacity of the sump would not be pumped into the tank, just the contents of the pump compartment.

With most designs the water flows from the filter media compartment to the pump compartment by flowing over a baffle or through holes in a divider. The holes or the top of the baffle are at or near the top of the operating water level of the sump, so if the siphon/overflow fails, the water level in the filter compartment would only go down to the level of the holes or the top of the baffle. The return pump would empty the pump compartment.

That may or may not be enough water to overflow the display tank. If you were using the 29-gallon tank as a sump, with the operating water line at the 17-gallon mark, and if the pump compartment were 20% of the length of the tank (6 inches of the 30-inch length), the pump compartment would hold about 20% of 17 gallons of water, or 3.4 gallons.

I never thought about it much, but I guess the smaller the pump compartment, the better.

It seems to me that the chances of this kind of failure are greater with a siphon than with an overflow.

 

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On 3/11/2022 at 3:29 PM, HH Morant said:

It would depend on the design of the sump, but in the event of a failure of the siphon/overflow, with most designs the entire capacity of the sump would not be pumped into the tank, just the contents of the pump compartment.

With most designs the water flows from the filter media compartment to the pump compartment by flowing over a baffle or through holes in a divider. The holes or the top of the baffle are at or near the top of the operating water level of the sump, so if the siphon/overflow fails, the water level in the filter compartment would only go down to the level of the holes or the top of the baffle. The return pump would empty the pump compartment.

That may or may not be enough water to overflow the display tank. If you were using the 29-gallon tank as a sump, with the operating water line at the 17-gallon mark, and if the pump compartment were 20% of the length of the tank (6 inches of the 30-inch length), the pump compartment would hold about 20% of 17 gallons of water, or 3.4 gallons.

I never thought about it much, but I guess the smaller the pump compartment, the better.

It seems to me that the chances of this kind of failure are greater with a siphon than with an overflow.

 

Your thoughts help me to be less scared—and more thoughtful as to how to design the sump if I decide to go that way.  Still contemplating risks and benefits…. Thank you for thinking this out with me.

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On 3/11/2022 at 11:12 AM, Lifeisgood said:

I am hearing the cautions on this idea—and I appreciate them!  How often are you finding you need to maintenance it? How long does it take you to do it?

My tank is overstocked with juvenile Hillstream loaches right now—but when I have the nerve to catch out a bunch—hopefully there won’t be such a burden on filtration and need for water changes.

 

Well, I set up a new 90 gallon tank after 30 plus years of a hiatus from fish keeping! (and I am loving it, I am retired and I have more time and money too 🙂 )

My canister has nothing but 30 ppi foam in it and I have not touched it yet. It is not good to over clean stuff, we need that brown stuff that is beneficial bacteria to keep the cycle going strong. 

I set it up in October of last year. I set up a Tidal 110 and an under gravel filter at the same time. I ran a Tidal HOB for 2 months, it cycled then added the canister together with the Tidal when I decided to change over to the canister.  I let that run about 1 month then removed the Tidal. So the canister has been running for only about 3 months by it's self.  

It is flowing very well so I'm not worried about it yet. I'm guessing I will be able to ignore it for about 5 to 6 months before opening it and checking/cleaning it. I don't have all that many fish either so I'm sure that helps. I do feed them a lot but I also have been changing about 20% of the water twice a month with a Python Vacuum to suck up the junk.

I have 1 Hillstream loach and I love that little guy. He is a brown algae eating machine! Oh, and his buddy the Bristle Nose Pleco helps too! Those 2 are my last addition to the tank and are still very small but man they love to clean!

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