discus stocking and tank mates

[T.H. Fishkeeping]

I am planning on setting up a high tech 40 gallon breeder pretty soon and was just wondering how many discus I could put in there comfortably. I was thinking 2-3 because I do not want to get a really big bio-load. also I was thinking maybe some rummy nose and German blue rams. 

[Jeff]

Discus really shouldn't be in anything less than a 55 gallon. Preferably 75g + is what I recommend.

 

[T.H. Fishkeeping]

I think that would be true in most cases but I am doing a heavily planted aquarium with 10 to 20 % water changes twice a week with a scape that will  have lot of open swimming room  

[T.H. Fishkeeping]

 but maybe i could do like 1 center pieces discus ?

[Andy's Fish Den]

7 hours ago, T.H. Fishkeeping said:

 but maybe i could do like 1 center pieces discus ?

I would not keep a discus by itself, they do a lot better with other discus. In a 40 breeder, you could keep maybe three or four if you keep up on water changes, otherwise I would go a minimum 55 gallon for a group of more than the three or four. 

[MaxM]

Not to get far off the topic, but I have two questions to add here.

First of all, let me preface that in my opinion the Discus is probably the most beautiful freshwater fish available for the home aquarium. I hope to someday own some.

Questions:

1) What's the minimum amount of Discus that one should buy? 

2) How difficult are they to care for? Are there any considerations that one should be aware of before buying them?

[Andy's Fish Den]

Just now, MaxM said:

Not to get far off the topic, but I have two questions to add here.

First of all, let me preface that in my opinion the Discus is probably the most beautiful freshwater fish available for the home aquarium. I hope to someday own some.

Questions:

1) What's the minimum amount of Discus that one should buy? 

2) How difficult are they to care for? Are there any considerations that one should be aware of before buying them?

I would buy at a minimum a group of four discus, unless I was buying a breeding pair. They do a lot better when kept in groups, if they are by themselves, they will be shy and reclusive. When I've bought them, I have gotten a group of at least six, if not more. 

I have kept discus for quite a while, I don't have any currently, and have kept both wild and domestic discus. I have found over the years that the domestic colorful discus seem to be a lot more "needy" as far as care. If you keep up the water changes, you can do daily, but I have never done the huge water changes that you hear everyone on discus forums saying you need to, and have never had any issues with raising them. I would do 50% two or three times a week, along with having a good filter, either a HOB or canister. 

[MaxM]

8 minutes ago, Andy's Fish Den said:

I would buy at a minimum a group of four discus, unless I was buying a breeding pair. They do a lot better when kept in groups, if they are by themselves, they will be shy and reclusive. When I've bought them, I have gotten a group of at least six, if not more. 

I have kept discus for quite a while, I don't have any currently, and have kept both wild and domestic discus. I have found over the years that the domestic colorful discus seem to be a lot more "needy" as far as care. If you keep up the water changes, you can do daily, but I have never done the huge water changes that you hear everyone on discus forums saying you need to, and have never had any issues with raising them. I would do 50% two or three times a week, along with having a good filter, either a HOB or canister. 

Questions:

1) Are Discus a schooling fish? If so, why do you suggest 4 and not 6? If not, what do you base your recommendation on?

2) From my research I see that there is a strong disagreement on tank size, ranging from 55, 75, all the way to 120 gal min. One person gave a ratio of 1 discus per 20 gal. What has your experience taught you? Based on your 4 fish minimum, what min tank size do you recommend?

3) 50% water change twice a week on a large tank sounds like an awful lot of work! Did you do this as a need or rather as a desire to keep it at premium condition? Didn't that much work wear you down? Did you ever ask yourself if it worth that much work?

[Jessica.]

Stendker, a major german breeder, has this handbook online. It offers some great basic info (specific to their discus, but also good for discus in general) You'll find they recommend the min school size is 10 discsu- 

DISKUSZUCHT STENDKER GMBH & CO. KG - Diskusfische - Diskusfutter - Diskus- und Aquaristik-Informationen

DISKUSZUCHT-STENDKER.DE

 

Discus can be challenging. If water quality isn't good, they will go downhill fast. Even more so if they're stressed because they're not in a school. It'll be challenging to keep water quality good in a 40 breeder. If you buy smaller discus, you're going to want to feed them heavily with high protein foods to grow them out. If you're set on keeping discus in a 40 breeder, I would do it bare bottom and do lots of water changes (like, every day or every 2/3 days), plan to upgrade the tank in 6-8 months, and no tankmates. 

This is my tank. It's 120 gals. It has 12 discus (10 now, I rehomed 2 so the bioload would lighten up), gets 2-3 50% water changes per week. It's been running for about 2 years now. I do the water changes at that level because if I don't, the discus will get sick. Work got especially busy for me a few months ago and I didn't stay on top of it. Discus pimples, aka little white bacterial infections in their fins, all cropped up from high nitrate levels. Water changes fixed it. I definitely don't water change because I love it, but it is what is needed for this fish to stay healthy in my experience. I notice mine get fussy if nitrates get about 20/25 ppm. dosing ferts is a delicate balance with keeping plants and discus happy.

 

Your question depends on your goals. You might get away with 3 discus in a 40 breeder with rams and rummynose, but the discus probably will never reach their growth potential, and it's likely you'll have health issues down the line. If you want to invest in discus, I'd do it in a 75 gal and keep only discus, at least for a few months while you get to know their care and behavior. You can always add tankmates down the line. 

 

[Andy's Fish Den]

1 hour ago, MaxM said:

Questions:

1) Are Discus a schooling fish? If so, why do you suggest 4 and not 6? If not, what do you base your recommendation on?

2) From my research I see that there is a strong disagreement on tank size, ranging from 55, 75, all the way to 120 gal min. One person gave a ratio of 1 discus per 20 gal. What has your experience taught you? Based on your 4 fish minimum, what min tank size do you recommend?

3) 50% water change twice a week on a large tank sounds like an awful lot of work! Did you do this as a need or rather as a desire to keep it at premium condition? Didn't that much work wear you down? Did you ever ask yourself if it worth that much work?

Answers:

1. Discus do school or shoal together, I was recommending the four based on you saying you wanted to keep them in a 40 gal tank.  

2. From my experience I would say one discus per 10 gallons, which also led me to the four fish in a 40 gallon tank. More gallons per fish is obviously better. When I kept them before and had a pair and was breeding them, I kept a pair in a 20 high tank. If I had a choice for tank size and there is room for a four foot long tank, I will choose a 75, because I like the extra width and more gallons.

3. yes, a 50% water change can be a lot on a large tank. That is where you have to decide whether it will be worth it for you. As @Jessica.stated above, she noticed, as I did as well, that their health can start to go downhill if the water conditions are not kept up. If you are currently doing water changes using a siphon and buckets, you may want to invest in a Python system, or even set up an auto water change system. 

As I stated above, I found that the domestic strains of discus seemed to be a lot more touchy when it came to water conditions. The wild discus would be fine if I missed doing a water change, or the filter didn't get cleaned for a couple weeks, whereas the domestics would start to show signs of stress. I'm guessing that it has something to do with being so domesticated and line bred for years that the natural hardiness has been lost to some extent.

[Jessica.]

25 minutes ago, Andy's Fish Den said:

As I stated above, I found that the domestic strains of discus seemed to be a lot more touchy when it came to water conditions. The wild discus would be fine if I missed doing a water change, or the filter didn't get cleaned for a couple weeks, whereas the domestics would start to show signs of stress. I'm guessing that it has something to do with being so domesticated and line bred for years that the natural hardiness has been lost to some extent.

This is interesting. Were your domestic strains asian bred or german bred? I've never kept wilds, but my limited research indicated they would be fussier than german bred domestics discus. You're giving me some interest in trying them out soon.

I've seen videos of some asian breeders keeping their discus in antibiotics laced ro water 24/7, and it makes me wonder if they would be far more susceptible to infections once put in a hobbyist's tank – a sort of "bubble boy" issue. I have an LFS near me who imports asian strains and they often crash on him.

@Andy's Fish DenDid you notice any behavioral differences in the domestic strains vs the wilds? 

[T.H. Fishkeeping]

well I do have a 55 gallon that I am not using but I dont really want set it up right now so maybe when they grow out of the 40 gallon  I will move them to the 55

Edited October 14, 2020 by T.H. Fishkeeping
with no tank mates

[Andy's Fish Den]

2 hours ago, Jessica. said:

This is interesting. Were your domestic strains asian bred or german bred? I've never kept wilds, but my limited research indicated they would be fussier than german bred domestics discus. You're giving me some interest in trying them out soon.

I've seen videos of some asian breeders keeping their discus in antibiotics laced ro water 24/7, and it makes me wonder if they would be far more susceptible to infections once put in a hobbyist's tank – a sort of "bubble boy" issue. I have an LFS near me who imports asian strains and they often crash on him.

@Andy's Fish DenDid you notice any behavioral differences in the domestic strains vs the wilds? 

I do not know if they were German or Asian bred. It has been a while since I have kept discus, and it's been quite some time since I had domestics. I am sure that even wild discus, it will depend upon who you get them from, if they have not been handled well and treated good they will not do good for you. I found that once they acclimated, they didn't seem as skittish and they ate really well for me, also seemed to tolerate it better when I went on vacation and the tank didn't get a water change for a week. 

[Jessica.]

@T.H. FishkeepingJust realized you said high tech. Are you talking co2 injection? That's upping the difficulty level a few more degrees. My experience is that discus do not appreciate the large ph fluctuations in a co2 injected tank. Also, at discus temps, water holds less dissolved gasses. Discus need well oxygenated water, so you're really narrowing the margins for error when injecting co2 in a tank at 82-86f. Many people use Ph controllers for their co2 in a planted discus tank to help mitigate ph changes. I do inject very low levels of co2 in my discus tank, and it's a real balancing act. I also run an airstone. I have tried turning it up a little when I get greedy for plant growth, and the discus did not like it. 

You might have more success starting with discus in a non co2 tank and getting to know them. Then when you add co2, you'll be better able to recognize the early warning signs if they're unhappy. Some other ideas are to grow the plant out with co2 in the tank, then wean the plants off it, then add the discus.